EvilGeko

Kinetic/Regen/Fire

Yes, in theory the Kinetic Scrapper has another AoE. But really, I don't think you want to go there with Repulsing Torrent and its scatter.

ST - Not even close anymore with Assassin's Focus. I have to theorycraft here because I'm not willing to run one to 50 just to do a pylon run. But next time we have a beta bump I will play both. I suspect this fight is going to go on awhile.

AoE - With 50% crit rate out of hide, Burst will do significantly more damage overtime when set up with Placate or used as an opener. Same with Fireball. Furthermore, Build Up provides a large infusion of damage buffing at one time. Power Siphon may or may not be built up (no pun intended) to enough of a damage buff when using the AoE. As you know AoEs have to be leveraged in such a way to maximize their targets. Build Up gives you the damage buff all at one time and on demand.

Survivability - Stalkers have Placate which gives them another defensive click. This can give them time for Recon and other clicks to recharge. MoG gives a Stalker enough time to reenter Hide, making escapes easier. Once in Hide, the Stalker has capped (if slotted) AoE defense.

The counter is that the 134 Health difference base between the two makes Scrappers more survivable, and that's just folly IMO. It's another example of Placate being relegated to being solely a damage boost, when it is a very potent defense power.

This again goes back to the old fight. I don't accept that the Stalker's unique powers (Hide and Placate) are survivability neutral.

You define Scrappers as unique and then argue that they are unique. Let's be fair here.

Agreed. I can certainly appreciate that Scrappers are not intended to fulfill a primary tanking role, but taunts have more efficacy than that.

But then we get back to the 'need' of Stalkers for the very large buff they got. It's assumed that because the AT wasn't popular that it needed this very large buff. I disagree. But we've been down that road before and I only bring it up again to clarify my position. Yes, I don't think Scrappers 'need' a buff. But Stalkers didn't 'need' a buff either, but the AT got a very large one.

Yes, you don't need to manage anything on a Scrapper, but that's because there's nothing to manage. That's like saying that a Blaster doesn't need to manage their mez protection. (That's an exaggeration for illustration, I am not saying that is an identical situation, I AM NOT SAYING THAT IS AN IDENTICAL SITUATION.)

The argument seems to be that it's OK for Scrappers to have inferior performance to Stalkers because they don't have to manage anything. Well, it's not exactly like we've been given the choice either.

If Scrappers in every combination did superior AoE damage than Stalkers, then that would be OK. But there are Stalkers combos that are superior to Scrapper combos in survivability and AoE damage and ST damage.

All Stalkers have the advantages of Hide, Assassinate, Assassin's Focus, and team scaling crits. I will acknowledge that Scrappers have higher self-damage buffing, but for most Scrappers that's limited to Build Up. The higher damage mod gets lost in the Stalker's higher crit rate and ability to create controlled crits.

No, you're arguing that the absence of uniqueness is uniqueness. I don't buy that.

The hit and run playstyle was announced since CoV's beta as the Stalker design. But OK, everyone has an opinion.

Talk about opinionated. You continue to relate the nonsense that having no advantage is an advantage. Then you start down the strawman hole with "blatantly retarded". Who said that? Oh, that's right...you.

Sigh... Brutes leverage AoE better because of superior ability to maintain aggro. A Regen Brute will have an easier time than a Regen Scrapper in using its AoEs because Integration taunts the NPCs, keeping them in PBAoE range.

It's not just SS or Titan paired with Fire Aura. That's your opinion.

I invite you to, and thank you for bumping the post. I will no longer respond to folks who can't argue without flaming.

But Scrappers just hit things. Everybody else just hits things...but they do this other stuff too. What else does a Scrapper do? In a Venn diagram, Scrapper sit within Stalkers at points and Brutes at points, but at no point are they anything unique.

I disagree with the low-hanging fruit theory, because the changes to Stalkers were transformative. Truly, this was not a 'small tweak' to paraphrase Statesman. This was an overhaul. The hit and run playstyle is now all but a memory. Stalkers are now single target specialists.

Which is great. I actually think the changes to Stalkers are excellent. I do worry that they have pushed Blasters even farther behind. I also worry that Scrappers are superfluous.

I get what everyone says about them still being good. I don't quarrel with that. But when I look at the AT as a whole, I can't find any advantage they offer outside of taking Shield. That powerset leverages their higher self-damage buffing in a way that properly pulls them ahead of Brutes and Stalkers. But Shield isn't an AT.

It's like another thread going on in this forum about */Mental and the things it's capable of with Drain Psyche. The outlier does not define the AT. In far too many combinations now, Scrapper don't offer any advantage over Stalkers or Brutes. Brutes leverage AoE better, and Stalkers leverage Single target better. No one here has quarreled with that idea. Most of the objections are platitudes about Scrappers being "awesome". Yes, they are awesome. But that's almost beside the point. What I am asking is what do Scrappers offer that Stalkers and Brutes don't?

Both Stalkers and Brutes can be played just as fire and forget as Scrappers. The changes to Fury makes it a lot less variable. It's just there now. Easy to build, and easy to maintain. Yes, you don't start as strong as Scrappers, but it takes mere seconds to get back. As for Stalkers, they're just Scrappers now, but they have all their other advantages besides. And with newer sets retaining the AoEs, the single target specialists doesn't necessarily lose much in AoE.

Respectfully (not really), I'll post whatever I like.

This is the exact reasoning used by Stalkers to justify their buff. Exact. And my post was in direct response to someone stating that I should stop playing Scrappers. I was responding to another poster and you are taking my post out of context and paraphrasing it with BS I didn't say.

If you don't like what I'm writing you are perfectly welcome to...not like what I'm writing. However, you are not a mod, and you don't tell me what I can and cannot post. I thank you for the bump to my post.

I admit, I'm speculating as well. I agree with your points, (a) and (b). I don't necessarily think (c) is true given the number of times they've buffed Stalkers and the mechanical nature of the recent buff.

I do recognize that folks aren't exactly in agreement about what's wrong with Blasters, although it seems to be a combination of damage and survivability.

That's not really my point. Blasters need a buff more than Stalkers ever did. That's the central point. I can only assume that the Stalker AT received this enormous buff because they were less popular. If I'm wrong, so be it. I am not wrong that Blasters needed a buff before Stalker did.

Done. I've tried to create a few Scrappers recently, but found myself rerolling them. Any of the newer sets where the AoE is retained is usually better on a Stalker IMO because you get better ST and decent AoE. And if I want an AoE death machine, Brutes are better because of the better aggro control.

Shield is the sole remaining set that unequivocally favors Scrappers and I already have one of those.

But then, I think the popularity of an AT is irrelevant. Blasters are very popular, but by any account they need a buff substantially more than Stalkers ever have.

I have two Scrappers that pre-date the existence of Brutes, Stalkers and the other CoV ATs. All my Scrappers pre-date the recent Stalker buffs. It's not like you can change ATs.

My main a BS/Regen was unique for a long time. But over the course of the game, I've seen every bit of it taken away and given to other ATs. Now I play a combination that you can also play as a Stalker and as a Brute and each of those would arguably be better for this particular combo (for different reasons).

Does my BS/Regen do OK? Sure, she does fine. If I feel like taking 30 minutes I can even kill a pylon without Lore pets. But all around, I've seen buff after buff of other ATs which has made this combo superfluous. The counter some folks will undoubtedly say to me is that "It's still good, quit your complaining." But that very same argument was true of Stalkers before Issue 22. The weakest combos weren't the best, but they did good. That wasn't enough for Stalker players. So why should it be for me?

Any person of good will should agree that no other justification is necessary.

My dear, you just committed one of the classic blunders. The most famous of which is never get involved in a land war in Asia. But another is that you don't get into an analogy war with the EvilGeko.

Because Mint Chip ice cream is delicious all by itself it's true, but since my wife and one of my sons love it to death, I have come to find out that even Mint Chip with more chocolate sauce and whipped cream is better.

And Scrappers are dandy, but a bit more dandy wouldn't hurt.

If you really think what we have now is balance where you have four nigh-immortal melee ATs and a ranged AT which specialty is dying, then I have some lakefront property in North Africa to sell you.

People say balance like it means something in this game. This is a game where the power level is so far above the environment that we're lucky the environment doesn't have an advocate.

Blasters share the same role as Stalker, Scrappers, Brutes, & Dominators. That is primary damage. Blasters are iconic in Comic Books and so as UberGuy mentions they are started in high numbers. But they get abandoned because they are substantially weaker than any of the melee damage ATs.

I made this argument prior to the last round of Stalker buffs. I was pooh poohed away by Stalker players. I understand why. They wanted their buff, and Blaster players can ask for their own buffs. So they got buffed. I will lol at anyone who tries to say (or write) without irony that it's fair that the melee ATs both do more damage and are more durable than Blasters. But for the most part that's the situation.

That the devs buffed any of the melee ATs suggests to me that balance is at most a consideration, but not outcome determinative of whether an AT needs a buff. It's more perception than anything else as best as I can see. If an AT is underrepresented then it must need buffs.

I think that's insanity. Given where we are now, I think the Blaster AT should be rebuilt from the ground up.


As for the melee ATs, if we're going to have four of them then there needs to be something interesting and special about all of them. Scrappers are plenty powerful. I've said that plenty of times. But they are beyond vanilla. It's like going into an ice cream shop. Stalkers are like a sundae with nuts, whipped cream, cherries, and sprinkles. Brutes are like a banana split, tasty and there's even something healthy underneath all that junk food. Scrappers are vanilla ice cream. Very tasty, fulfilling, but it's just the base.

Blasters disprove that. One of the most popular ATs, but without doubt the weakest.

citation please?

citation please?

citation please?

For the last three points, if that's your opinion, then that's cool, but Defenders got their inherent simply to give them an inherent. There have been buffs that were simply bugs that the devs decided not to fix.

Underperforming hasn't been the basis for buffing in a long time. Several of the Controller sets (besides Gravity which did need a buff) saw their pets buffed. The Controller AT is probably the strongest AT in the game. There was no indication that Ice, Plant or Electric controllers need a buff, but they just got one.

Folks you're stating principles that have clearly been tossed to the side and/or ignored more than once. Stalkers got buffed because people wanted them to get buffed. After two previous rounds of buffing it's absolutely laughable to continue to state that AT was hurting, but people did it.

At least I'm being honest about my motivations.

The emphasized sentence is not a reason to buff an AT. Nor is the popularity of an AT relevant to whether it should be buffed. Stalkers performed their intended role, damage, just fine. Saying they didn't perform it 'well enough' is a qualitative assessment.

Stalkers could solo fine and contribute to groups. If they were hurting there, then your point might be sound. But pull away the flowery language and Stalkers wanted a buff...because they wanted a buff.

Then you haven't been listening (err...reading).

People are pushing back because they push back against everything. When I spent years arguing for a MoG buff, people pushed back. When it was added, some of those same people were extolling the virtues of the power.

For years, I argued that ethos (alignment) has no relevant to what powers a being has and that all ATs should be allowed on all sides. There was no end to the parade of horribles that folks said would befoul the game should this come to pass. Well, it did. Nothing happened...oh except people had more fun.

Long ago, I fought tooth and nail with Statesman and folks on these boards about why real numbers are needed and would not hurt the game. Again it was said that the game would literally cease to exist should this come to pass.

I have about ten more examples off the top of my head. People argue here because this is an internet forum. If Scrappers got a buff, especially an ally enhancing buff, it would have exactly zero negative effects on the game. Many of these same people pushing back would simply go silent or even praise the change. This is why I both appreciate, but ultimately don't worry most folks negative feedback.

I bought my skis. We crossed the Rubicon years ago. Did I just mix metaphors?

QFE, QFT.

I actually didn't care if Stalkers wound up better than Scrappers. I play plenty of Stalkers and they were the first AT I beta tested during CoVs beta. I love the AT. But I think that the always on crit chance and the scaling crits were a cop out.

Especially when there are so many examples of 'rogue' ATs in the MMORPG space.

What are you talking about? Stalkers and Scrappers (and Brutes) have a .75 resistance mod.

How many Scrapper sets other than Super Reflexes have 'meaningful DDR'?

That is not a point in your favor. Reconstruction provides toxic resists, it's healing. Saturated to ten targets RTTC gives 633% Regen. That's heals a bit more than 1.5 of your max health in one minute. That's assuming you can keep ten targets around you for the whole minute.

Reconstruction with SOs returns 50% health every 30 seconds. And it benefits from additional recharge. Get it to 20 second recharge (which my Stalker and Scrapper does) and it heals as much as a fully saturated RTTC and you don't have to have keep any NPCs around you. And Recon can heal through burst damage. And as I said, it gives toxic resists.

134 Health makes you a glass cannon? Because that's the difference.

That was the basis for the Stalker buff, so why not?

And they did. You just couldn't faceroll to do it.

You're counting it as a benefit when only a 1/3 of the sets have it. So no they don't count in Inter-AT balance.

Katana and Broadsword have 130 degree cones. So no, they don't count. I'll give you Martial Arts.

Which is good since there is no difference.

Let's parse that out. Blasters can reasonably be called 'glass cannons'. Stalkers have 134 less HP at level 50 than Scrappers. They are not and never have been a 'glass cannon'.

As for masters of single-target damage. I could get on board with that. However, every new set has retained its AoE in the Stalker version. Hell, Kinetic Melee is MUCH better on Stalkers than it is on anyone else because they get AS instead of that useless Repulsing Torrent. And Castle would never admit it to me, but I'm sure that was intentional.

While I don't understand why such a massive buff was necessary, I don't begrudge Stalkers the buff. I don't see why people are so actively opposed to an ally-only buff for Scrappers.

As for pylons. When you have ATs doing solo what was originally designed to be a raid target....sigh. Let me ask you this; do you really think balance means anything at this point?

• Higher damage mod - Where's my controlled crits? Or my scaling crit rate in teams? Or my 50% AoE crit rate from Hide. That's before the recent buff.
• Damage auras - My Regen has a damage aura? Where? Can you show it to me? I can't believe I was such a noob.
• AoEs - Stalker Kinetic, Electric, Street Justice, Staff, Spines say hi!
• Survivability - When Stalkers were asking for buffs I said many, many times, equalize their HP with Scrappers. That would have been fairer. Nobody wanted the 134 Health. The wanted to continue to make the argument that they were weaker than Scrappers. No matter how minute that difference was.

Right now we have neither. Balance among the 4 melee ATs is just about meaningless. Three of the four are clearly tank mages and the fourth, Tanks, is currently under evaluation by the devs.

Inherent powers STARTED as kludges to fix AT imbalances. But that's not why Defenders got their inherent, nor why it got buffed. Honestly, it seems to me that the devs buff ATs just to get more people to play them. For the life of me, I can't see how Stalkers deserved a buff before Blasters and I pray Arcanaville wins her crusade regarding them.

Balance would not allow the majority of ATs to handle group content with ease, even considering Inventions. But that's where we are. The game is off the rails. These high minded arguments that we need to maintain 'balance' lost me when you gave an AT with: Stealth, an aggro drop, a better version of the Scrapper inherent, an AoE fear on the ST nuke, & controlled crits even more buffs.

That train has not only left the station. It's made it to its destination. We're at a point where power creep isn't even a reasonable argument anymore. There hasn't been any AT in years that hasn't been able to survive solo and contribute to a team.

The justification for just about every buff we've seen in the last 2-3 years has been to make them more 'fun' either solo or in groups. So why not give Scrappers something for when they are in groups.

The whole world should laugh. It's good for the soul. And giving Scrappers something unique would be too.