EvilGeko

What foe(s)? And what character are you playing?

Math is needed for that situation however. If you knock the foe away from your heavy hitting melee attacks, what have you really bought. For example.

Energy/Energy Blaster. You knock a foe away, they are no longer in range of Energy Punch, Bone Smasher and Total Focus. Bone Smasher and Total Focus do more damage than any of the blasts except the Sniper (and knock doesn't buy you enough time to use that). Energy Punch activates faster than ANY blast attack and Bone Smasher is faster than the T2 and T4 blasts. And by moving them away from you, you're giving up the chance for the VASTLY more powerful stun secondary effect.

So I'm not ready to acknowledge that you're better off in the situation you posit.

Prove it. Prove how your infallible knowledge counters the collective wisdom of the playerbase.

EDIT: Let me take a stab at the counter-point. KB's advantage is that it removes an NPC from combat for a certain amount of time and it allows a player to position NPCs into hazards (like lava...oh wait, or over ledges, etc.) The disadvantages of KB is that it interferes with a large number of powers that rely on NPCs staying in a tight cluster. An abridged list of those powers include:

BLASTERS:

Fireball; Fire Storm; Inferno; Ice Storm; Blizzard; Rain of Arrows

CONTROLLERS:

Shadow Field, Quicksand, Volcanic Gasses, Conductive Aura, Static Field, Ice Slick, Spectral Terror, Carrion Creepers, Poison Trap, Venomous Gas

DEFENDERS:

Sleet (Freezing Rain), Tar Patch, Repulsion Bomb, Choking Cloud, EM Pulse, Disruption Field, Liquefy

TANKERS:

Taunt Auras (all); PBAoEs (all)

SCRAPPERS:

See Tankers above. Also see powers that are not taunts but PBAoE buff/debuffs


I would go on, but I need to get to KB's other disadvantages. Unless a player has a ranged attack, KB requires that the player close the gap to melee in order to defeat the knocked entity. That takes away time that could be used in killing. KB also can encourage some NPCs to switch to ranged attacks. Where you're dealing with AoE knockback this can make combat even more dangerous because now the NPCs are spread out and can't be easily dispatched, but can still attack the player. This hurts both melee and ranged characters to some degree.

Ice Blast and Fire Blast have secondary effects that cannot be identically optimized. Ice Blast's slows and -recharge is valuable in places where Fire's DoT damage isn't. At times both are useful. Never, in my experience, have either been a detriment. I can't say the same for Knockback. In my opinion, Knockback is not an example of a good tradeoff of advantages/disadvantages. It's mostly disadvantage. Which means it's an obviously poor choice.

The advantages of Knockback are not worth the disadvantages. That's not an opinion. Knockdown offers almost all of the same advantages with none of the skill required. In general, I agree with your premise. I think whenever a power or effect requires greater skill to leverage than average it should offer greater advantages. But that's not what Knockback is. It's almost the opposite. It offers inferior advantages to similar effects while at the same time requiring specific scenarios and skills to shine. That's broken.

Well, I disagree that it's mechanically correct. I think that's absurd. Over the years folks have offered what I thought would make KB mechanically correct and that is additional damage when KB applies. KB then provides a benefit for its higher skill requirement. Now it offers nothing. The game design benefit I see is that players who care can now eliminate the detrimental aspects of knock effects while retaining their benefits.

Further, I think it's incorrect to say it's being 'nullified'. A toggle that turned KB off at no cost would be nullifying it. What is being done is providing a reward that allows those who wish to nullify the detrimental aspect of knock. That's no different than putting an endurance siphon IO in Dark Regen. That eliminates the downside of that power's endurance cost. That's what IOs do, they allow you to be more than you are at base. But you have to earn or purchase them. How is this different?

Players right now have tools to eliminate scatter from their game. I can choose never to make an Energy Blaster, kick any I see from my teams or quit teams where I'm not the leader. I can fully escape knockback in this game. All this IO does is allow me to play certain sets and still escape this pernicious effect.

Correct, a fun power that comes as part of a costume pack offers a non-debt death. Is that death sold as an advantage? Is it not implied that the secondary effect isn't necessarily a good thing?

Knockback is sold as some kind of advantage, when it is almost always a detriment. The analogy Arcanaville sets up is inapposite. The game allows players to die to represent failure. I'm not sure, but it seems that Arcanaville is saying that knockback is in the game to represent failure.

If that's what she meant, I agree and am glad we are finally getting a way to correct that mistake.

Personally, I want the set just as it is. No changes whatsoever. Probably won't get my wish, but Illusion doesn't need anything.

What powers have dying as a secondary effect?

The thing is, I am absolutely sure this is only the first such proc. I would be really shocked if the devs don't offer other means to accomplish this. Hopefully, sooner rather than later as it's well overdue.

That just illustrates why people are so excited. In this game KU and KD are in the vast, vast majority of situations superior to KB.

This hysteria comes from the same place as all the supposedly kicked defenders back in the day. It is overblown, plain and simple. Sure there are idiots everywhere and I'm sure some people won't place nice once these are available.

But those folks aren't worth playing with anyway.

Yet. But I think they know that this:



would be the result of putting these on the market.

For Peacebringers, you really only need it for Solar Flare!

Of course, now that the tech exists, we can start campaigning for a common Damage/KB to KD IO to be created. And all the standard objections fall out because such an IO already exists!

Not going to lie, I may no longer tolerate Solar Flare without this IO on my teams. Or I might just do what I always do, run ahead and kill on my own like a proper Scrapper (even if I'm playing a defender. ).

While my Fire Scrapper has taken down the rest of the room, I'll leave it to the MAs to chase their critters!

Even as a unique, it's still a major game changer. Solar Flare, Repulsing Torrent, Shockwave, the list goes on. Even for Energy Blast, I'll probably put it in Torrent or the AoE.

OMG...just so excited!

A team leader has the right to kick someone now for any reason or none. How is this any different?

Let's assume that's will actually happen. And I'm sure there is someone out there that will do that. As a team leader do they not have the right to enjoy the game they way they wish?

But you can't kick them again!

Play whatever you want. You don't want to play with people who demand that anyway.

OMG, I forgot about that. I think I'm going to swoon!

Is not!

FINALLY!!!!!!!



So Happy right now!