EvilGeko

I'm assuming "Shadow Dweller" is the defense you're talking about. But could it be another Stealth power?

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No, BETTER. They drain endurance (Ice also give slow resist and a slight amount of defense). Which is a heck of a lot better than a one brawl attack.

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Eh, the endo drain on those powers is pretty useless. You're not sucking even a minion dry with them. At least the damage from Consume helps you defeat the mobs a touch faster (although most of them will heal it back up before you get to them).

The endo drain is semi-useful if you're teamed with an electric blaster or a Kinetics user, but that's certainly not the common case.

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Fair enough, so let's just say the secondary effects of all three powers are pitiful and get to the real issue which is that the Ice and Energy powers have 1/3 the recharge.

Because there is NO way that a brawl damage attack justifies a 180 sec. recharge.

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Not sure if you're being serious. But you are aware that Invul gets defense and resistance pre-32? Invul is much better on Sm, Le damage, a lot worse on Fire, almost the same on Cold resists and worse on Eng, Neg.

But Invul also has defense.

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Er, unless it's changed recently, Fire/ gets 30% resistance base to En/Neg damage through one power. Invuln/ gets 17.5% through two powers. Even if you include the defense in Invuln against an average-sized group, that's hardly breakeven.

Comparably, Invuln/ gets 12.5% more Sm/Le resistances if my numbers are right.

I'd consider universally applicable benefits, for less of a power investment, and reliable powers to be well worth the defense difference.

But, yes, Burn needs to have some purpose attached to it.

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Sm, Le damage is more than 50% of the damage taken. It parses from 60-100% depending on villain group. Having a 12.5% advantage in Sm, Le is a lot better than a 12.5% advantage in Eng, Neg.

At best it's a wash and no reason to deprive Fire of KB protection (and useful Immobilize protection) a necessary predicate of tanking.

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Another complaint: Why does consume drain so much less endrurance than it's Energy and Ice counterparts? You gain enough back, but it takes very little from the enemys.

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Don't they recharge faster?

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Yes, the end drains from Ice and Energy armor have a recharge of 60 sec. to Fire 180 sec. I'm not sure how that's fair.

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Do the Ice and EA versions deal damage?

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No, BETTER. They drain endurance (Ice also give slow resist and a slight amount of defense). Which is a heck of a lot better than a one brawl attack.

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Another complaint: Why does consume drain so much less endrurance than it's Energy and Ice counterparts? You gain enough back, but it takes very little from the enemys.

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Don't they recharge faster?

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Yes, the end drains from Ice and Energy armor have a recharge of 60 sec. to Fire 180 sec. I'm not sure how that's fair.

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The benefit of being the only resistance-based Tanker set pre-32.


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Not sure if you're being serious. But you are aware that Invul gets defense and resistance pre-32? Invul is much better on Sm, Le damage, a lot worse on Fire, almost the same on Cold resists and worse on Eng, Neg.

But Invul also has defense.

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EDIT: I think I found a bug. Stay tuned for more info! The info below is INACCURATE.

After numerous PMs about this, I'll go ahead an post this publicly.

Healing Flames heal scale of 1.75 has not changed since I3. I didn't bother going back further than that -- a year is a good period of time.

The AT mod for Tankers self heal has not changed in that time period, either. It is still 1.5. Brutes Self Heal mod is the same -- 1.5.

A level 30 Tanker using an unenhanced Healing Flames gets 178.5 health. With 2 SO's, that would increase to 296.31. 178.5 is 17.5% of a Tankers health at that level. 296.31 is 29% of a Tankers health at that level.

Brutes percentages would be the same, though the numerical value of the heals would be lower due to brutes lower max health.

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Castle, is there are reason that HF has such a long animation time compared to the other self heals and heals for less?

Now this is off-topic but you might be the only one to answer, what does Fire get to compensate for the lack of KB protection? Every other melee set with this limitation has no gaps in their physical protection (DA gets all resists, Ninjitsu defense to all positions + psi resists). Fire doesn't.

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Note.. hasten does not provide a +def bonus so why bother listing it? Also I can't tell from your numbers posted but you would be better off ignoring Stealth. Once you attack and it suppresses you loose the +defense bonuses it provides. (you would have to have a stealth power in your secondary to keep your +def bonuses).

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Because it used to. This sub-discussion is considering pre and post I5/I6.

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That's just nonsense. Even running the three powers you cite that would get a Blaster up to 17.5% defense unslotted. Not bad.

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I'm trying to stay out this arguement but keep reading it at the same time. The above line confused me a little. Are you talking before the defense nerf?

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Yes, pre the defense nerf the commonly understood values for Hover and CJ was 5% Me, Rng defense and Stealth was 7.5%. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

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Every AT lost out in the Defense department. It used to be that a blaster could take a couple of power pools to increase his damage taking ability. Combat Jump and Hover and Stealth and you have some passable defense. So they gave us a (slight) increase in HPs. And gutted aLL of the defense powers we could possibly take. We lost out at the same rate (if not more) than you did as far as defense is concerned.


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That's just nonsense. In the pre-I5 days running the three powers you cite would get a Blaster up to 17.5% defense unslotted. Not bad, but nothing like where Scrappers were.

I can only assume that you were unaware of what Regens, SRs and Invuls could do pre-I5/I6. My Regen at one time regenned 201 HP per SECOND. I used to have a permanent HP total of 2075 (now it's a 2/3 of the time 2333). If I took certain power pools I could add 42% Sm, Le resist to that and if I took all my own powers I could add a little over 50% toxic resist.

And as uber as that was, Invul Scrappers were even better. SRs, despite their whining were just as good. AND remeber that Scrapper could run CJ, Hover and Stealth too.

We got GUTTED for the 12.5% damage boost. The minimal defense blasters lost is not comparable. You can say that we were overpowered. Fair enough, but to suggest that the big defense changes hit Blasters harder is ridiculous.

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I would love for some of the status abilities in the secondary sets to be ranged rather than PbAoE or Aura toggles. It won't happen though since it would allow blasters to kill squishies with almost no problem and that is something the developers don't want.

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That's true. I've always been with you that the devs need to give Blasters the range that is supposed to be their advantage.

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Bug… In an upcoming patch, flying entities that are disorient will no longer behave oddly.

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Took you long enough to notice this 'bug' despite the fact that martial arts scrappers and superstrength tankers have had the problem since day one.

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This bug still exists. I used a Total Focus with my stalker on a gold Bricker and I Energy Transfered his wingman. They immediately took to the air and few far as they possibly could doing the druken dance the whole time.

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Hmm.. an effective necro-post that's still on topic. Well played.

DojhromTRW received 2345 xp toward his next necromany level!

On the topic of this necro post. I wrote a while ago, how MMO wizards (Blasters here) get shafted. The reason they get shafted is because it's not possible to give this AT all the versatility that existed in Dungeons and Dragons. There mages could do a lot of things which justified the low armor and HP.

Here Blasters are crippled by the singular focus and role. Ice Blasters do so well because they have a utility, control, that most other blasters lack. */Energy does well in PvP and PvE for much the same reason.

Blasters should not do much more damage than Scrappers. All that does is make Scrapper irrelevant. Blastes should have had control as their secondaries instead of these stupid melee based things.

If I were redesigning the Scrapper secondaries, I would get rid of most of the melee attacks. Blasters should all have single target and AoE immobilizes. They should all have a single target hold. And they should all have aggro (hate) reducers. All PBAoE blasts should be removed. Everything should be ranged. The remaining 5 powers in each secondary could be the flavor. But certain basics would be maintained.

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FYI: Integration starts at -6 MAG mez PROTECTION and RESIST and ends out at -9 MAG at level 45. It used to be -9 and -12 and before that -15 from 16 on.

The Regeneration buff is 150% with only 100% enhanceable. Three slotted for healing that's a buff of 245%. Six-slotted for heals it's 260%.

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Thank you both for the clarification.

So it would be fair to say that it's a mixed protection/resist power with less protection than most other melee-ers have?

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No. Integration, Practiced Brawler and Unyielding for Scrappers, Stalkers and Brutes have identical mez protections. Hold, Sleep, Immobilize, Disorient and Knockback.

Unyielding for Tankers is slightly better, of course.

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But it's still not comparable to a Blaster's plight, even before you note the difference in survivability between a mezzed regen (with a ton of auto and durational clicks protecting him) and a mezzed Blaster (whose protections are almost entirely toggles or instant clicks like controls and aid self).

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I don't know that I would call two durational clicks a ton. Especially when one is the gimpy MoG. As for autos, again you're only talking two. A regen with Fast Healing and Health three slotted is looking at a 224% Regen buff. Which restores 56% of your HP in a minute. Not bad, but not that demonstrably better.

As for the clicks, Instant Healing is uber when it's up. That's why it's not allowed to be up very long. Ironically, IH was buffed for PvP when they nerfed it for PvE. As for MoG, it's darn near impossible to mez someone with MoG and Integration running, but not impossible. Even then mezzes don't last long at all.

Only problem is that many AT can near insta-kill a Regen in MoG.

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IIRC, Regen has mez RESIST not mez Defense, which greatly shortens the amount of time you spend mezzed. It's not comparable to a Blaster's plight, even before you note the difference in survivability between a mezzed regen (with a ton of auto and durational clicks protecting him) and a mezzed Blaster (whose protections are almost entirely toggles or instant clicks like controls and aid self).


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Nope. Integration is 6 mags of mezproofing [used to be 15] along with 400-600% healing. If they've got a "durational" it's either Instant Healing [which is as good as they say] or Moment of Glory [I don't know how good it is, personally]. Without a "durational" they've got about triple-strength Health and a little bit of mez resistance keeping them alive. And we know how Health saves your life when you're getting hammered by red-cons.

I personally consider Regen scrappers like canaries in a coal mine. They'll jump into the middle of anything, and if they faceplant I start taking purples and paying attention.

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FYI: Integration starts at -6 MAG mez PROTECTION and RESIST and ends out at -9 MAG at level 45. It used to be -9 and -12 and before that -15 from 16 on.

The Regeneration buff is 150% with only 100% enhanceable. Three slotted for healing that's a buff of 245%. Six-slotted for heals it's 260%.

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I could go on, but the point is, the devs might INTEND for their system to benefit small SGs, but their system could very well do nothing for small SGs, not because of incompetence or malice, but simply because they made a mistake.

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And, as I keep repeating, it's unfeasible that they could accidentally make these new features unaffordable for small SGs, which is what people seem to be fretting about. The suggestion that they could somehow have overlooked the cost of the room, or of the upkeep, is silly.

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I don't know about that. The devs don't seem to have a good idea about costing. Almost nothing in this game has a reasonable cost structure IMO. I could easily see the devs getting the prices wrong since they're trying to balance affordability and their other goals of making bases "hardcore" content.

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The devs accept they make mistakes, why can't everyone?

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Making mistakes is one thing; accidentally failing to design something around small SGs when that's what you've set out to do is another thing altogether. I believe the Devs are fallible, but I don't believe they're idiots.

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The devs did not intend:

1. For people to slot 1 acc; 5 damage. Although anyone with a decent understanding of math would have realized that was optimal.

2. For people to use Instant Healing constantly. Although anyone could see the easy path of taking Stamina.

I could go on, but the point is, the devs might INTEND for their system to benefit small SGs, but their system could very well do nothing for small SGs, not because of incompetence or malice, but simply because they made a mistake.

Your all-caps post was unreasonable and unfair. The devs have basically had to redesign multiple systems since launch because of design mistakes. It's is not unreasonable to consider the possibility that they will make mistakes in this context. I think your post was founded in frustration because it is out of character for you, but nevertheless it was not a fair response to the person you quoted.

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The devs accept they make mistakes, why can't everyone?

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Making mistakes is one thing; accidentally failing to design something around small SGs when that's what you've set out to do is another thing altogether. I believe the Devs are fallible, but I don't believe they're idiots.

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The devs did not intend:

1. For people to slot 1 acc; 5 damage. Although anyone with a decent understanding of math would have realized that was optimal.

2. For people to use Instant Healing constantly. Although anyone could see the easy path of taking Stamina.

I could go on, but the point is, the devs might INTEND for their system to benefit small SGs, but their system could very well do nothing for small SGs, not because of incompetence or malice, but simply because they made a mistake.

Your all-caps post was unreasonable and unfair. The devs have basically had to redesign multiple systems since launch because of design mistakes. It's is not unreasonable to consider the possibility that they will make mistakes in this context. I think your post was founded in frustration because it is out of character for you, but nevertheless it was not a fair response to the person you quoted.

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CAN WE PLEASE BE SO RECKLESS AS TO ASSUME THAT WHEN THE DEVS SAY THEY ARE DOING THIS FOR SMALL SGS, THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

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I for one would like to live in a world where design intentions and functional implementation were one and the same. It would be a better place, I think.

However, we do not live in such a place, and pointing out potential flaws in an idea, especially flaws which can be extrapolated from how similar features were implemented in the past, is entirely valid criticism.

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QFE, QFT

The devs accept they make mistakes, why can't everyone?

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Unfortunately for Poison types, Reconstruction HAS to work this way. Sorry folks, it won't be changing.

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I'm glad to hear that. I mean, resist buffs resist resist debuff and defense buffs resist defense debuffs, I'm glad Regen is allowed to not have their entire secondary destroyed by one power.

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What happened to Geko, swinger of the nerf bat? I mean, he doesn't answer PMs or actually post, but I think he's still around.

*em glances over shoulder*

AH! REGEN NERF!

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Geko remains isolated in his arcane cave o' nerf. Jonyu and Castle feed him a Regen or Invul every once in awhile to sate his thirst.

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It's people like you who chased Geko, Mr. Loose Lips on the Numbers, off these boards.

Keep that in mind next time you bemoan the numbers being unpublished.

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The other thing I wanted to say about that, is that I don't buy when developers claim that us mean posters hurt their feeling and make them not want to talk with us. The developers have the control. Their input has much more force than any poster. I'm sorry but suck it up. This is the only service industry where client service is thought to be optional.

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It's people like you who chased Geko, Mr. Loose Lips on the Numbers, off these boards.

Keep that in mind next time you bemoan the numbers being unpublished.

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Yawn. We got more numbers out of Castle in the last two months than we did from Geko since launch.

Geko's probably a decent enough guy, but he posts things and then retreats to the Geko cave. At least Positron, Statesman and Castle take their flames like men.

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A lot of hated decisions weren't even Jack's fault

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My boss frequently takes the [censored] jobs so that players have someone to focus their hate on, while giving the glory jobs to his junior coders. It's a good working system, and the hallmark of a good boss.

I'm sure States resembles a supervillain for many of the same reasons.

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I think this is right. I've never thought Statesman was responsible for all the nerfs. I think he takes the aggro for a lot of changes, though. Positron will tank once in a while too. But IMO, they are both taking the heat for the true evil on the dev team:

GEKO.

The powers manager. While States, Positron and Geko might jointly make the decision that something is a problem, I think that madman Geko actually decides how to do the nerf. I focus my ire on that wicked lizard.

Is that fair and rational of me? Heck no! But after he actually said he nerfed by beloved Regen because we have too little downtime, I made a special green tinfoil hat for him!