EvilGeko

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Actually, I want to address this. This is purely a CoV setting artifice. It does not exist in CoH. I never once had the feeling that Freedom Corps or any other of the organizations mentioned in the backstory had any more significant impact on the city than any one, lone hero. (Or at most, team of eight heroes.) There's never any indication of Freedom Corps keeping Malta, the Council, Nemesis, the CoT, or any other major, organized faction in check.

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Every hero in Paragon City is a registered member of Freedom Corps. 'S why our information is given on a Freedom Corps ID card. The "lone hero" in Paragon City is still working as a Freedom Corps agent under Freedom Corps auspices. Freedom Corps isn't absent - we are Freedom Corps, aren't we?

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Really? Never knew that the ID card says we are freedom Corps, and I've played the game since beta. I always thought we just got registered as heroes, hence the ID card. I think most people see it that way, because it has no impact at all on the stories in CoH.

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That's what I thought too, IIRC the ID comes from Paragon City, not from Freedom Corps.

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Considering we haven't played through the 40+ game and mayhem missions, this seems to be a disservice to the developers without seeing the upper end content.

I somehow doubt we are "just" flunkies up at the high end. Heck, we've had that whole destined thing going on since *level 1*.

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Not really. My 35 Blaster is currently investigating the excursion into our realm of an ancient demon who strikes fear even into the black hearts of the Circle of Thorns and threatens to engulf Paragon City.

My 36 Brute just saved a john and some [Censored] from carnie extortion.

Both story arcs. Both established characters. One is a hired thug and the other is a hero. Now let's extrapolate that to the 40s with what we know. We know that the ancillary pool mechanic from City of Heroes is being replaced with this patron pool. We know in order to get the pool you MUST ally yourself with a Patron. Patron implies a subservient position. The choice is permanent.

We also know about Grandville the 40-50 zone for villains. Grandville is Lord Recluse's seat of power. All that occurs there is under his thumb. PC villains just take their place at the bottom of the zone and have to claw their ways to the top so that they might be allowed to lick Lord Recluse's boot.

Fun.

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To add on to Click Beetle...

In CoH and CoV, you aint Superman. You aint Wolverine. You aint Captain America. You aint Doctor Doom. You aint Lex Luther.

You're Joe Scrub Hero/Villain. You're in a whole freaking CITY of heroes and villains. You're just not that special.

Well, except me, of course.

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That's true up to around level 35. After that, in CoH your character starts dealing with grave threats to the City, the world and the multiverse. In that way it is much superior to CoV. Saving [Censored] because I'm paid doesn't do much to make me feel like a villain.

The 40s in CoH and the final arcs of 35-40 are near perfection. You truly feel heroic in every sense of the word. You don't play second fiddle to Ms. Liberty, you become her equal. As she told me when I dinged 50, she didn't have anything more to teach. Of course AV/Hero status is a mechanic intended to create challenging content, but many players by level 50 are strong, powerful characters and should be treated like it.

In City of Villains, we're being relegated to be lackeys of the lackeys. How fun.

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Really? Are you sure they didn't just tie the patron powers to content on purpose and by doing so incidentally locked the powers into your character once you've chosen them?

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Well, yes I am sure. I don't see any reason to believe that permanent, non-respeccable power pool choices were somehow a whoopsy-daisy side effect. Come on, they know how big a deal this is.

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I agree with Sadako. This "devs are lazy" meme is always a non-starter digression. Agree or disagree with the design choices or philosophy. Personal criticisms that requires actual interaction with the subject to assess is fanfic as far as I'm concerned. Wrong section for fanfic.

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I agree as well. You can disagree with a mechanic without questioning the devs' motives. And the devs whatever their faults may be are not lazy. Understaffed is more like it.

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It's also worth pointing out that people like the option of change even if they never use it. Players are more likely to be confident and make the choices they really want when they know that they can change their minds if they have to. This results in them being happyer with their choices even if they never actually use the respec.

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I agree. I had planned on going with Ghost Widow no matter what anyway for RP purposes on my villain main and I still will, but I would still like the choice to be there.

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Oh yes EvilGeko, because your opinion is so not valid. We're always right.

Jeez, all we are saying is to get a better opinion is to wait until it is on Test because we dont know full details. Is that an evil thing to say?

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But whatever goes on test is IRRELEVANT. We know your choice of patron is permanent. So discussing that cannot be premature.

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But what if there's enough powers in each set so that almost anything is possible? The set is permanent, but what if there's enough powers in the set that are respeccable?

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It really doesn't matter. So long as there are differences (either effectiveness or cosmetic) between the Patron Pools, and there will be, then a permanent choice is a bad decision.

I don't say this off the top of my head. I've played about ten MMOs and five seriously and in everyone where you get a choice of power or attribute that's permanent, it causes problems. Most have been detailed in this thread. Few people are ever happy with such a choice.

I think developers like the idea because for them it forces the character down a certain RP path. It also forces diversity because at least some people have to be the pioneers and choose first. Developers tend not to like people being able to change with the wind. BUT, many players hate being locked in to a particular choice. Most people don't mind paying their way out, see WoWs and EQ2 paid respecs. But people like that out.

This is a choice the devs have made. I promise you this issue will not go away until people have some choice. I may not bring it up, but others will. People will be calling it a dead horse around I8, but it still won't go away. Like many other hard fought issues people are going to complain and complain. I promise you this will come to pass. It's so unncessary too. There is a reason that modern games don't go down this road. There is no reason CoV needs to.

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I don't believe that the powers are permanent. The power set is permanent. Isn't that the case?

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Actually we don't know for sure, but based on what Bridger said it's only the pool that's permanent.

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Oh yes EvilGeko, because your opinion is so not valid. We're always right.

Jeez, all we are saying is to get a better opinion is to wait until it is on Test because we dont know full details. Is that an evil thing to say?

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But whatever goes on test is IRRELEVANT. We know your choice of patron is permanent. So discussing that cannot be premature.

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This thread is barely 24 hrs old and is already 34 pages long......you'd think this would send a message to the devs.

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What message? That's there's a small group of players who get hysterical over incomplete information and post multiple times?

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Sigh. The information isn't incomplete. You guys and the "wait till test mantra" is getting old. It's doesn't matter what the powers do, all that matter is that they're permanent. Positron said they are so there is no "incomplete" information.

But that never matters does it?

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I see so many post saying "Why not just make it like the heroes EPP's."

So what your saying is,you want the villians to be IDENTICAL to heroes.I say no to that,that's exactly why they are villians,and not heroes.

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I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense. Of course, heroes and villains are different, but in other ways they are the same. In the comics superpowers aren't delineated by whether you're evil or good. There are people with Super Strenght on both side, Flight on both sides, etc.

This is not a place where it's necessary or desirable to have a difference between heroes and villains.

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The patron is set because of a story-arc where you choose one patron above all the other. The fact that you can't unpick a patron is because it's now part of your *history*.

You keep harping on this like it's some kind of conclusive proof. It's not. It's not even relevant.

People betray patrons and switch factions all the time in the real world. Shifting alliances are a permanent feature of any political situation. It is even possible for (e.g.) Fred to betray Barney to Wilma, then betray Wilma to Barney and end up working for Barney again. History is rife with the stories of double and triple agents. There have even been people who managed to screw everyone in the domain of discourse and gotten away with it, or even ended up in charge. Arachnos would not only be no different, it has actually been shown to be a breeding ground for cutthroat politics.

Locking players into their initial choice of patron is not logically necessary. It is a fiat decision, and it is a bad one.

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Quite right and this decision makes no sense considering our history up to that point. Up to this point you have been out for yourself if you do most of the content.

I've killed thousands of Arachnos agents simply because they would know too much. What really loyalty should my character or any other have to Ghost Widow, Sirocco, etc. Of course we might accept their patronage to our own ends, but when the mood or conditions are right, betraying the fools would be in our villain's interests.

That's just the RP justification for why I think we need an out. That aside, like Venture said earlier, designing in a permanent choice like this is just a bad decision. It's going to cause no end of grief.

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We dont know what is contained in the Patron pools yet, how many powers exist, how similar they are to each Patron, etc...so its difficult to debate for now until we see it on Test to form our opinions on it.

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No that's incorrect. My concern is that the choice is permanent. I don't care if every pool was the identical but with different colors (it won't be), what I'm concerned about is that it's a permanent choice.

I just think that it is a bad idea to gate an ancillary pool this way and think the devs should offer the generic ancillary pools that heroes have access to on the side.

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I'd like that too, but I really doubt the devs will do it. If they make non-Patron APPs availble, I imagine lots of people are going to just avoid the Patron Power's and their related arcs and content. I doubt the devs want that to happen.

Personally, I think I'll just team with people doing to the missions to see what they are like, but I just can't accept a pool I can't change. Not when power changes are so frequent, and documentation of changes is so poor.

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I agree that's what would happen, but consider that. Is having the patron pools being this permanent choice that good an idea if many people would bypass it if given another choice to give an ancillary pool?

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We all know that 95% of what hits Test, hits Live. I'm not advocating going into full, obnoxious squeaky-wheel mode is appropriate right now, but this 'Be quiet/Wait and see" advice is silly.

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But we don't know what is going to hit Test, that's the point.

I'm not giving anyone advice and I'm certainly not telling anyone to shut up. I just don't think a 'dropped the ball' verdict is justified until we know exactly what we're being tied to here. The proof of the pudding is not in the anticipation.

I agree that it's a very risky piece of design, and their providing hard data prior to the choice suggests that they are aware of how horribly wrong it could go.

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This just ignores reality. Positron stated that the choice is TRULY permanent and becomes part of your character just like primary, secondary, origin, etc. It is not an unjust assumption to take him at his word.

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But it doesn't matter how it works! What if I decide, for example, that I actually hate the way Scorpion's Mace looks with my character?
Now I'm screwed in the A. What the damn Mace does doesn't make any difference.

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Then you have the choice of not using the mace and just using normal pools (just like heroes.)

I'm 99% postive that the reason this isn't respecable is that it ties into your badge/souvenir rewards for the Patron Story Arc.

You do the story arc (now the *history* of your character) you have officially pissed off all of the other patrons and only the one you picked will be your sugar-daddy.

A decision with a consequence! My gosh!

How CoV where if you fail a mission, the contact tells you to take a hike and won't *ever* talk to you again?

I'm quite happy to see it, myself.

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Now that's an assumption. I've never seen the devs say that you get a generic ancillary pool if you don't go with a patron. If you mean that a person who chooses not to consume this content is stuck with just their basic four pools then I don't think that's a good idea.

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We dont know what is contained in the Patron pools yet, how many powers exist, how similar they are to each Patron, etc...so its difficult to debate for now until we see it on Test to form our opinions on it.

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No that's incorrect. My concern is that the choice is permanent. I don't care if every pool was the identical but with different colors (it won't be), what I'm concerned about is that it's a permanent choice.

I just think that it is a bad idea to gate an ancillary pool this way and think the devs should offer the generic ancillary pools that heroes have access to on the side.

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Clint, just because you've learned to embrace and bathe in the hyperbole and doomwhining doesn't mean everyone has to condone it, too.

Yes, Revolver freaking the hell out as if this were written in stone and will never change without knowing anything other than 1 Positron post is going overboard. When it was first announced that capes weren't going to be available until level 20, we had people posting the exact same thing. "OMG, BAD GAME DESIGN!" and "THE DEVS DROPPED THE BALL!"

Yet... capes hit at level 20 and no one cares about it anymore.

I'm sorry I'm not freaking out like a 3 year old about this, Clint. Maybe because it's everything I've been asking for for months: epic power pools that actually MEAN something. I'd gladly give up the right to change epic power pools if it meant that they added a storyline reason why my elec blaster suddenly discovers he can freeze things in ice at level 41. Or that my mind controller can suddenly throw boulders.

But no, I'm not even just protesting Revolver's right to be a giant loudmouth. I read this thread and was disgusted, Clint. It's an entire thread of people acting like jagoffs, whether it's about lack of information about patron powers, the inability to change them, or even typos. Game balance, nerfs, devs, fanboys, trolls or not, I take exception to that as a forum reader. If you want to condone that because you suddenly find yourself at odds with the devs, that's your choice to make.

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Don't read the post then. Seriously. You say all these things bother you but then you jump right in with the attacks.

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Realistically, it won't matter "game-wise".

Let's look at what Ancillary Power Sets "basically" do in CoH.


Tanks: Mezz or missing self-buffs plus ranged attacks.

Scrappers: Basically, ditto.

Blasters: Armor, self-buffs and possible attacks.

Defenders: Armor, self-buffs and a possible mezz.

Controllers: Armor, attack, self buffs.


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For Scrappers there are drastic differences between the pools even when they follow the formula stated above. Body Mastery and Weapons Mastery are much different and both are different from Dark Mastery. And that's the AT with the least amount of pools.

I don't think the choice is something that doesn't matter. By level 41 characters matter a lot. I can see why the devs want it to be this way, but I think they could save themselve a lot of grief if they offer generic, respeccable choices to go along with the Patron Pools.

Otherwise get ready for years of people complaining and Taser and others berating them for complaining. Sigh... makes me tired just thinking of it.

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Lastly, on respecs. Most MMOs do not give those.

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Wow does.
EQ2 does.
EQOA does.
FFXI kinda does since one character can be all classes at once.

In fact, I've not played ANY MMO that doesn't let you respec. Not your basic class, but then CoH doesn't do that.

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You're complaining about being locked into something that you don't even know what it is. Isn't that a little premature?

Honestly? Not really.

What they are planning for Patron Powers is a baaaaaaad idea.

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I agree. We have sufficient information to complain. Better to do so now so the devs can realize that people aren't exactly hot on the idea.

Most of you old timers know that once this hits test the mechanics aren't going to change that much. Tweaks for balance, but the functionality is staying the same. I think it might be too late to make the patron pools respeccable, but it's probably not to late to add generic ancillary pools for villains that relate to their closest CoH AT.

So for people who don't want to make a permanent choice they could if they were a brute for instance go:

Stone Mastery
Fire Mastery
Energy Mastery (with CP swapped for something else)
Darkness Mastery

From the Tanker and Scrapper Ancillaries. I think that would make everyone happy. Well maybe not the devs, because I gather that many people would pass on the risk if the option were added.

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I love this game. I almost never complain. But this time I feel I need to.
Patron choice being permanent? Bad, but perhaps necessary.
Having to chose a patron? Very bad. I'm sorry, but my Mastermind is an evil genius with plans of world-domination and an ego the size of a galaxy. In-character, he would never, NEVER take a patron. From the sound of it, I'm going to have to break character. I want to play an archvillain who's trying to take over, not an apprentice of a bigger villain!

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You are not forced to do any of the Patron content.

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Unless you want an ancillary pool.

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He means powersets.

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Are the patron pools truly permanent or can they be changed in a respec?

Had to ask in case you were still lurking.

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I just hope that the devs don't read this and decide to nerf aid self instead of boosting healing flames

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I'd like to do both, actually (and both my Brute and my Stalker use it!) But, alas, Aid Self isn't changing. Healing Flames, on the other hand, might get a boost.

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Aid Self has saved my fire blaster occasionally while soloing. Please don't change it. Not everyone plays melee characters with built-in defenses.

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Since he said they're not changing it I feel comfortable saying this. Aid Self is overpowered. It's on a third of the timer that the other self heals are and it heals for more than Healing Flames. My Blaster loves it, but a 20 sec. recharge is just silly.

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Nah, while everyone has been saying it was on I5 that it got messed i have been constantly telling i think it has been this way almost forever. Its just after I5 that people start noticing the issue since ED took everything down to a point where every bit of power is now required, forcing even the casual players to min max builds and bump into this issue really fast.


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this is distorted. ED closed the gap between min max builds and casual builds by cutting off the min maxers at the knees. the rest of the game didnt change; casual players wern't greatly effected.

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Casual players weren't affected by ED, they were affected greatly by I5.

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Don't forget that the hp boost from the dull pains also makes aid self work that much better.

I just hope that the devs don't read this and decide to nerf aid self instead of boosting healing flames

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We already had that out. Castle said they'll leave Aid Self alone even though he acknowledged that the recharge was much better than they thought it should be. As for the unfairness to the primaries and secondaries with self heals, that's ok because we can take Aid Self too and those heals are cheaper.

That's what we were told.

In my opinion, Burn covered up the fact that Fire tanks were broken for far too long. No one cared because they had their PL tool, but the set is not an adequate tank without heavy support and you would be better off with a DA or Regen Scrapper (See Arcanaville's excellent analysis on the Scrapper boards).

I used to think that small changes could do it, but the more I think about it, the more I think that Fire needs several powers to change to be able to tank sufficiently.

WHAT I WOULD DO TO FIRE ARMOR

Fire Shield - Remove Disorient protection - remainder unchanged

Blazing Aura - Unchanged

Healing Flames - Lower animation time; make a 25% base heal

Temperature Protection - Becomes a click, keeps the fire and cold resists (which don't figure highly into survivability) and adds standard Tanker protection to Hold, Sleep, Immobilize, Disorient and KB

Consume - Damage lowered to about 1/2 of a brawl, recharge reduced to 120 sec.
Still worse than Energy Absorbtion.

Plasma Shield - The only change is that the Hold and Sleep resists would be removed.

Burn(ing Aura) - Burn goes away as the limited pet and become a melee defense 5%; and melee ranged -acc debuff like Smoke.

Firey embrace - Unchanged

RoTP - Unchanged.

Well I can dream can't I.

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I'm very curious what Shadow Dweller is and if it'll have Immobilize protection, which DA lacks.

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DA Scrappers get their immobilize protection from their Stealth toggle. They only status effect DA is weak to are KB and confuse.