EvilGeko

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For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion.

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Doesn't that mean that everything will have the same 5% chance to hit, regardless of whether they're a minion or AV? I mean....that's what that sentence says. And it's posted by a red name.

Are we not being told something?

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That's what I thought at first too, but what's happened is instead of a to-hit buff for being higher level and/or higher rank, mobs now get an acc bonus. It's .1 for every level, plus higher cons get their former acc.

So formerly a +0 AV had a to-hit of 75%.

Now that AV has a to-hit of 50% and an accuracy bonus of .5

Assuming no defense that still leads to a 75% final chance to hit.

Make that AV +5 and his final accuracy is 95% (bounded from 100%)

So in Issue 6 this is how MoG would have treated these mobs (assume MoG three slotted for defense)


+0 AV = 75% - 124.8 (approx defense of MoG) = final to-hit of 5%
+5 AV = 100% - 124.8 = 5%

In Issue 7

+0 AV = 50% - 124.8 = -74.8 (bounded to 5%) * acc bonus 1.5 = 7.5%
+5 AV = 50% - 124.8 = -74.8 * 2 (1+level and rank bonus) = 10%

That's a substantial difference. It's not the highest either. There are a few specialized mobs (turrents and the like) that have extremely high to-hit in I6 that was still floored by the very high bonus of MoG. In Issue 7 slotting MoG for defense is a waste. You're stuck with the mobs acc bonus.

If I've done the math incorrectly, anyone feel free to correct me. I know I took some shorts, but I think the result is essentially correct.

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While it is kind of a nerf, getting hit 2 times more (than issue6) in the tier 9 defense powers is not bad. In my 3 minutes of a tier 9 power, I'll get hit twice. Ok ...double that to 4.

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For Elude and Overload and Kuji In Retsu it's not bad at all. For MoG an additional few hits is the difference between a faceplant and living.

For anyone going to troll my suggestion let me get this out of the way:

1. No I haven't extensively tested this and I couldn't although I will test it. Probabalistic powers like defense are better tested mathematically. If you don't agree please feel free to flame me, but it doesn't change the facts.

2. If you want to see a good discussion of the math, check out Arcanaville's very extensive test in the Scrapper forum. Cliff notes: A regen is better off not hitting MoG and sticking with their normal regen powers. Primarily this is because you spend too long in the buff without the ability to heal and with inadequate HP. My suggestions are meant to correct that.

No chance we can talk you guys into KB protection? Probably not with everything else this has huh?

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And by changed you mean it's actually useful?

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No I'm saying they need to change MoG because the defense changes work out to a nerf for that power. While the defensive changes are positive for SR and other primarily defensive sets, this makes an already lackluster power weaker.

Momemt of Glory needs to be changed. This power depends on the mobs being at 5% final to-hit. The defense bonus was formerly high enough to make that so. Now with the changes this is much less likely to happen. Only even conned minions can be capped at 5%. Every other rank of mob will be higher.

Since MoG is rarely needed fighting even cons this is a significant downgrade. Any additional damage is meaningful to MoG since the power does not allow healing or regeneration.

I recommend one of the following:

1. Remove the HP drop

2. Remove the -heal, but keep the -regen

3. Throw the power out and replace it with Overload

4. Throw the power out and make it an actual regen power

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If you took Instant Healing and changed it so that it made each hit act like illusory damage -- i.e., for each hit you take, a second or two after the hit you 'instantly healed' part of the damage, then what you'd have would be a defense that would scale the same way that Resistance and Defense did, and could be balanced against them -- 40% Resistance, 40% Defense, and 40% Instant Healing would all, over time, protect a character from 40% of the incoming damage. Unfortunately, doing a rework this fundamental to a powerset seems to be more than what the devs are willing to do, since it would entail rebalancing the other powers in the set as well.

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That wouldn't balance the sets exactly, because there is an inherent deficit to taking damage as opposed to avoiding it.

I have lots of ways to balance regeneration with Defense and Resistance. So far, all of them suffer from one of four problems:


1. The suggestion makes regeneration work *too much* like either Defense or Resistance. We don't need a resistance clone that just has a regeneration sticker on it.

2. The suggestion uses such complex math that I could never convince the devs to implement it, and I'd be arguing its merits on the forums until Kingdom Come.

3. The suggestion runs afoul of what I understand to be certain critical limitations in how the game engine works. When I suggested replacing tohit buffs with accuracy buffs for bosses and +5s, say, I knew that that ability didn't exist, but I also knew all the components to make it work did exist, and therefore the modifications necessary were not out of the question. Some ideas (like creating an attack heal-back queue to implement the "instant healback" idea) require inventing mechanisms completely out of whole cloth, and probably not easy to construct ones in a real time game.

4. It actually works, and its actually implementable even with the current game engine, and its provably balanced. And 99% of all regen scrappers would probably want to kill me for even voicing it.


If I had a way to do it that avoided these four things, I would never stop talking about it.

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You think too much.

How many times do I have to tell you.

Give SR and Invul a reconstruction like self-heal; get drunk; profit.

You never explain why that won't fix the problem better than any super smarty pants complicated nonsense you would come up with.

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so what you're saying is one of us could apply for a job....

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My wife would like to move back to Southern California...

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Too bad we're in Northern California.

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You didn't ask me what I would like.

Any love for MoG or Fire Armor in I7?

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If you took Instant Healing and changed it so that it made each hit act like illusory damage -- i.e., for each hit you take, a second or two after the hit you 'instantly healed' part of the damage, then what you'd have would be a defense that would scale the same way that Resistance and Defense did, and could be balanced against them -- 40% Resistance, 40% Defense, and 40% Instant Healing would all, over time, protect a character from 40% of the incoming damage.

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Can't be done without new tech. Significant new tech. This was one of the ideas I put forward in I3, before I really knew what limitations we have in the system.

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So then, how does Spectral Wounds work? Because it seems like what's being suggested is just all damage vs the character with Instant Healing working like Spectral Wounds damage.

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Spectral Wounds works like this. When an Illusionist hits a mob with SW they are actually hitting them with two effects:

Psi damage
Heal on a delayed timer

An Instant Healing that recovered X percentage of an attack would be different. There the server would track what damage affects a Regen with IH and then proc a heal after say 2 seconds of whatever percentage of the attack you got hit with.

That's much more complicated than how SW works. SW is just you healing the mobs after damaging them. The RP explanation is that the mob is recovering from the illusion.

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If you took Instant Healing and changed it so that it made each hit act like illusory damage -- i.e., for each hit you take, a second or two after the hit you 'instantly healed' part of the damage, then what you'd have would be a defense that would scale the same way that Resistance and Defense did, and could be balanced against them -- 40% Resistance, 40% Defense, and 40% Instant Healing would all, over time, protect a character from 40% of the incoming damage.

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Can't be done without new tech. Significant new tech. This was one of the ideas I put forward in I3, before I really knew what limitations we have in the system.

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Any hope for MoG or Fire Armor in I7?

You know I'll never give up. Please just crush my dreams now.

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You can read Statesman's and Positron's 2nd Anniversary Address here.

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That was the most exciting address I've read from the devs. Go Positron!! And grats on two years. If even half of what's in that address comes to pass, I'll be here at least two more!

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so what you're saying is one of us could apply for a job....

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My wife would like to move back to Southern California...

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And you can't question the skill of any Pre-I3 Regen IMO. Getting to 28 in the old days was one of the toughest things you could do in this game.

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You never played a pre-issue3 controller solo before the pets I assume

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Yes, I did. Slower than the Regen, but safer. Of course mine is an Ill/FF (who still hasn't got to 50 despite being an I1 character) Being able to go PFF anytime you want and hold mobs makes for a slow but easy life.

And RANGE. Good lord, I just lol at the Blasters when they say range isn't a defense. I remember when I first started going up against Sorcerors with Frosty and Cute. The bastids would teleport and my girls would just turn to face them and most times would still be in range of their blasts/holds. Hurricane? What frikken hurricane.

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and then you were a god after it. big woop!

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Actually you had to wait until you got your 31 slots for godhood, and by that time you earned it!

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I just disagree with the immortality line. I agree it exists, I just disagree it makes Regen as binary as many would claim. I know far too many Regenners who use the immortality line as their cutoff point, and refuse to find ways to push past it, which frustrates me to no end.

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On this point. To put it another way, what you're seeing is some players just playing to the difficulty level. There really isn't much reward in playing above the immortality line. With your combat abilities any decently built regen can handle Invincible.

To be honest, I don't push myself much anymore because there's no more mountains to climb. My Old School Regen soloed the Kronos Titan and a number of other AVs and Monsters. It was harder than most people think, but hey, it's just not possible anymore.

My new school Regen is doing well, the low level game is much easier than the first time. The set is all around more even in its power progression. So it's easy to learn quickly what you can and cannot do. I don't see why it's problematic to play to your abilities. In all Statesman's examples of play that's what he does.

When do Regen players just get to have fun and stop being accused of wanting godmode?

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I find it telling that in the aftermath following I6, the Regen players of my acquaintance have seemingly congealed into two populations: the players who still manage to remain wholly survivable and use the set skillfully and purposefully, and those who eat floor at every possible opportunity.

Suffice it to say -- I find it to be evidence that the powerset was previously allowing any Joe Schmoe with a copycat build mini-Godhood status.


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That was Issue 5. Issue 6 and ED did almost nothing to Regen. One of the more annoying things about ED is that people ascribe the benefits of Issue 5 (which was a painful, but well targeted general nerf) to it because the issues ran back to back.

And you can't question the skill of any Pre-I3 Regen IMO. Getting to 28 in the old days was one of the toughest things you could do in this game.

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what would you guys think of making MoG into a granite-like toggle?

give it a [censored] of regen, like 1000% base- fully enhanceable. but also give it some wicked penalties, say something like an SO worth of -dmg, -acc, and about -15% defense. and give it the end cost of old school IH.

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I think Geko would laugh himself hoarse as he fired Castle for the suggestion.

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Aid Self allows me to heal approximately 123% of my HP per minute without Power Boost and 165% when I use power boost every time it's up.

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Honestly, I don't understand the point in mentioning what it can do with PB. That is something that Energy Secondaries and maybe Power Mastery EPP Defenders can take advantage of. (Never met a Defender with Aid Self.)

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My Regen Scrapper can heal at 97% of her HP in one minute with Reconstruction well slotted. My primary regeneration toggle only heals me for 61% of my HP per minute. So two powers that make up my main defenses are beneath this pool power.

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Because they aren't interruptable, do not break your attack chain for 3.3 seconds, and do not require you to be immobile to activate them.

Look, if the problem is that the power's interruptability is not working, I'm all for fixing that. It interrupts for me rather often. Maybe I've been unlucky. I've tried what you describe with an Invulnerability Scrapper and have about 60/40 success/fail rate activating the power under heavy assault. It was usually a mix of slow DoT and multiple melee attacks that I could't time. Melee with one foe? No problem. In the Ice Storm of a Hellfrost? Forget it. With a DE Swarm on my butt? Forget it.

But if it's not working - if the interrupt mechanic is broke, then fix that.

And hey, I'd be ecstatic if they dropped the recharge on reconstruction by 30% or so. I think it takes too damn long to come back.

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Yeah, unfortunately, one of the most unbalance builds have access to power boost. Ever fight an Ice/EM with Power boost and Aid self? 700+ hp heals at lvl 50.

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No but I got one. I've seen what a "regen" Blaster can do.

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When the infamous Regen video was released (which admittedly had far greater problems), there was this huge outcry of people who criticized States for keeping away and letting his Regen heal him to finish off the mobs he did. I never understood this for a moment. Are we so dumb and spoiled that we expect to stand and press attack over and over until we win? It just seems silly to me that people keep talking about the binary nature of Regen. As far as I'm concerned, the "stand and kill" portion of Regen should be noticably lower than other sets. The kill and come back for more portion should be unrivaled by any other set in the game.

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That's extraordinarily biased and unfair. What people were objecting to was that Statesman was stacking the deck. Regen is a healing set. Sure, I could go into a mission, get just close enough to aggro a couple of mobs, kill them rinse and repeat. I would probably be immortal then.

But if you're going to nerf Regen for being overpowered, then DEMONSTRATE that it's overpowered. Often times the devs trot out the tired excuse that someone could just turn on their toggles and go through the mission without any thought. Well if that's true then don't use as your evidence a Regen using tactics. We said at the time that Regen was harder than most people gave it credit for. Statesman's video just showed that you CAN'T play like godmode.

Now as for the second point in this paragraph, you can't make Regen's "stand and kill" portion lower than the other sets and at the same time make it's "kill and come back" portion better. They work together. The devs tried just what you describe. Basically Regen has very little regeneration outside of its clicks. Far less protection than Invul and SR. But add in the Reconstruction and DP click and it goes above them. Only problem is that you can't make Recon and DP have such long recharge that you have to do hit and run because there is still some regen there to fill the game. Unless you're suggesting that the meagar constant regen we have now be nerfed further. Hell then you're basically back at Issue one regen where all you have is Dull Pain and Reconstruction.

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Sure. I think, compared to many other self heals, Aid Self is over-powered. Mainly, this is due to how Interrupt powers work, and a scale that is slightly too high, so it would not be an easy change to make. It would also be very unpopular, and, in the end, it isn't strictly necessary. So, it stays as is.
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Of course, that means every AT that has a self heal can now complain that it isn't as effective as Aid Self, and what are they getting to make this fair? Not much, I'm afraid. The only thing I can really say is that taking Aid Self in addition to their normal Self Heal will increase their survivability.

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I wonder when Geko decided that the sets with self heals couldn't be buffed to be at least ON PAR with Aid Self if he remembered this little ditty from ancient times:

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it used to be 20 seconds. I meant to change it to 60 seconds, but accidently made it like 600 or something. That made it 5 times better than the Defender Clear Mind power. Clear mind was 60 seononds, and it is now 90 seconds. Stimulant must not be as good as clear mind.


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Once upon a time with Geko.

Stimulant was adjusted so it didn't step on Clear Mind. It was done in a combo slight nerf to Stimulant and fair buff to Clear Mind. Aid Other and the rez already don't step on their primary and secondary fellows.

Why does Aid Self get the privilege.

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Also, tell your powers guys that we liked it better as Chum Spray! Some Blasters are still calling their level 49 power Foce of Nature; you can change the power name, but we're still gonna call it Chum Spray whether you like it or not.

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I remember bugging the hell out of poz and pohsyb when I5 hit test and they renamed the FOCE "Force of Nature." How boring! Statesman, you can make this right. Give us back the FOCE!

Also: rename Bile Spray "FOCE Spray" if you have to.

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FOCE Spray = Pimp. Too pimp for villains.

Just go back to FOCE of Nature and be done with it.

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You know I really don't mind the gobal defense nerf so much I hate IH as a click always will but still really you can learn to live with it but ED just still feels so mean.

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That's exactly how I feel. ED was done so they could get PvP within reasonable limits in the short time they had until CoV Halloween launch. As I study Issue 5 and how much more reasonable that made the balance, I realize that the only reason for ED was to not make PvP a Scrapper, Stalker, Blaster, and Brute burst fest.

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You know with SR scaling and defbuff protection think there is any chance of regen getting -regen protection? Every other defense has it's own defbuff protection now doesn't it?

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Except, as you know, the -regen effect were added simply to screw regen.

In other news Arcanaville's evil plot to ensure the dominance of SR almost came to fruition. It appears that SR might be quite a bit better off than everyone assumed.

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that would work, or they could change the defense back to Base Defense, throw in some Psy Res and get rid of the intial HP drop.

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That would work as well. That would be fun. Basically your 38 power shouldn't put you in a worse position than the eight powers that come before it.

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Pow wows, tee pees and peace pipes I guess we all have to swallow. But can we have a little respect for the Nations and not [censored] start talking about scalping?

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Consider this an official, public apology. It wasn't my intent to cause any racial tensions here, I was trying to keep a potential problem light hearted.

I sincerely apologize.

To everyone else:
It's hard for me to remember at times the great variety of folks who read these boards, from all ethnicities, political and religious backgrounds. I imagine when most people are posting, they tend not to think about such things as well. As a representative of Cryptic Studios, however, I *do* need to pay more attention to these things. In the event that I fail in this, please PM me about it so I can take corrective action.

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Great post Castle. Would that everyone paid as much attention.


*Will you guys fix MoG in I7?*

(Yes, I'm stalking you. )