EvilGeko

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Except those two lucks lasted 1 minute and only affected things slightly (-25% base accuracy.) 25*1.5*1.3=48.75% accuracy. The AV will most likely only have to swing three times and you are dead (and AVs generally attack pretty fast, so that the healing over time is not as good.)

Saying that MoG is only as good as a few lucks is a disservice.

This is not to say that MoG shouldn't get a bit of a revisit, but I'd say that the easy way to boost it is to limit the health hit *slightly*. Getting a 50% drop in health would allow you to effectively get a 1/3rd extra hit points with almost capped resistance and capped defense.

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Two lucks provide the same benefit as MoG does in Issue 7. Once you get to 45% defense, assuming no defense debuffs, you've capped everything to +5. I'm not sure why you keep multiplying the accuracy mods in too early, but it's much simpler than you seem to think it is:

Base to-hit (this number is 50% from even con to +5) - Defense (just add up the defense buff) = X

X is multiplied by any accuracy buffs for rank and level. The resulting figure is the final chance to hit.

Against a +3 AV it's just this simple:

MOG

50%-75%=-25%(5%)

5%*1.3*1.5=9.75

Two lucks

50% - 50% = 0%, 5% min

5%*1.3*1.5=9.75


Except with the lucks you can heal. If the AV can attack say every 2 seconds that means they get 30 attacks in a minute and we can expect 3 to land. If those three attacks base damage is equal to the Scrappers HP with Dull Pain, the Scrapper dies with MoG. Period.

By contrast, with the lucks the Regen gets the opportunity to heal and assuming the successful strikes aren't right on top of one another, they will survive.

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Except that DP increases the HP regenned by IH and your normal healing powers. So while the relative HP stays constant you get more benefit from Dull Pain in the second scenario.

Even so applying it to one instance and not the other is unfair as Dull Pain is one of the few powers that will function under MoG conditions to any degree.

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Fair enough. Add DP to the MoG side. Doesn't change the result.

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Run against the same AV with:

Dull Pain, IH, two little lucks (50% defense)

Even assuming no other defense or resistance, you're now much better off than you would be under MoG.

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Can't you run DP in conjunction with MoG as well? IF so it should be factored out of the comparison.

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Except that DP increases the HP regenned by IH and your normal healing powers. So while the relative HP stays constant you get more benefit from Dull Pain in the second scenario.

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And slotting for defense allows you to face off with Archvillains that are higher levels (+3, fairly easily.)

What? It *could* be useful? If slotted? Yup.

Figure that an archvillain +3 is 50%*1.25*1.3=82.5% accuracy. Now factor in 80%*1.57=125% defense.



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It doesn't work like that. A +3 AV has acc mods of .5 (for rank) and .3 (for level). They aren't multiplied in until AFTER defense is applied to the base to-hit of 50%.

Assuming MoG is at least 75% (which we're all pretty sure it is) there is no reason to slot MoG for defense against a +3 AV. The calculation would go like this:

Base to hit(50%) - Defense(75%) =

-25%(5%) (Minimum to-hit is 5%, so the to-hit that is multiplied by accuracy is 5%)

5%*1.5=7.5%

7.5%*1.3=9.75%

(please note you could have multipled 1.5*1.3=1.95*5=9.75%)

Slotting MoG for defense would not change the result in any way.

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Figure that against getting hit *82.5%* of the time for 130% archvillain damage. You are over nines times tougher running MoG for a short time with a few holes.


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The correct accuracy assuming no defense is 95% (bounded from 97.5%). Now I can't disagree with you. All things being equal you have a better shot against the +3 AV running MoG than running nothing. But that tells us nothing.

Run against the same AV with:

Dull Pain, IH, two little lucks (50% defense)

Even assuming no other defense or resistance, you're now much better off than you would be under MoG.

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This thread is solely for discussions regarding Grandville, a new zone for level 41 - 50 Villains. From the Issue 7 Training Room patch notes:

"New City Zone

Grandville – The black heart of the Rogue Isles is a dangerous place for even the strongest villains to venture into."

All off topic posts will be removed. Please do not post bugs/feedback/balance issues before testing this content. All bugs/feedback/balance issues should be posted AFTER exploring Grandville.

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This is the most impressive and beautiful zone I've ever seen in a MMO. It's jaw-dropping. The artists should be very, very proud.

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MoG is actually aptly named: it really is "A Moment of Glory." Its main problem is that it lasts a lot longer than the moment does.


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I agree. I suggested a long time ago that it be reduced to 60 seconds and lose it's ending crash. 90% of the reasons one should use MoG would be done by that time.

And this fits with all my testing. It is exactly between 60 secs to 120 seconds when you get in trouble with MoG. That plus it's other problems kills it for me.

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from the 2 pre-canned Net-res-debuff answers i got, i can tell that this issue has been debated before. I don't want to drag a dead horse out again but it looks like you guys are dissecting the power into it's individual parts without considering the compounding effects of defense with resistance together.

MoG Might be a net resist debuff when compared to your total health but the remaining health is protected by awesome defense AND is resistant to the very few hits that get through.

I know that Arcanaville has dissected all this but can you give me a cliff's note version? I still believe the remaining 25% health with 70% resist at insane defense levels is more survivable than 100% health with no resist and regular defense level.

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Uberguy hit the key points, but I would also note that Regens are normally at an advantage against toxic damage. It's our strength. In MoG it becomes a weakness, a detriment. Where a regen will usually have about 20-47% resistance to Toxic, you now have 75% (capped) but you only have 1/4 of your HP which effectively makes it even more of a debuff.

Now you asked a trick question. You asked if MoG was superior to a regen at 100% health with no resists and regular defense. Well that't true, it's better than absolutely nothing. BUT, MoG is substantially inferior to two other options available to regens:

1. Your normal regen powers (especially, the vastly more potent IH + Dull Pain combo)

2. Two lucks

Either of those options is vastly safer than MoG. It's not even close. I've tested it pre-I7, it was true then. Now it's even worse.

People see 71% resists, 80% defense and think UBER! But when you add that -regen, -heal, -75% of your HP, you're in a demonstrably worse position than you were before you hit the power.

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PvE don't slot MoG for defense (Actually, don't take MoG but you are too wilful to listen to reason.).

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Ok what about elude? It has a much lower base than MoG. Will base elude already put everything at the low cap? What about with all the normal SR toggles running as well?


As far as MoG, I'll most likely still keep it....it's either MoG or a second travel power or something like confront. I don't see a point in either of those.

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Elude is still no. With the passives and toggles you're still well above the soft cap, and Elude's endurance recovery buff gives you the power to run them easily.

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Slotting defense in either Elude or MoG will help counter high tohit buffs in PvP. In PvE, there are very few tohit buffs high enough to overwhelm either (DE quartz eminators would be one). And as EvilGeko said, it also helps with defense debuffs. MoG has no protection from defense debuffs, and SR has something they call defense debuff resistance but seems to have the same effect on defense debuffs as prayer does.


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Ok so if a person doesn't do any PvP, there's really no reason to slot either one, right? Because I can't really think of any serious defense debuffs in PvE, other than MAYBE DE quartz, but those are really rare).

Well.....at least that saves some slots.

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PvE don't slot MoG for defense (Actually, don't take MoG but you are too wilful to listen to reason.).

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Ok arcana answer this.....

Will slotting MoG and Elude with ANY defense enhancements be a waste with I7? From what we understood, just using those powers without any slots would give you the maximum defense you could possibly have, so slotting them with defense would do absolutely NOTHING.

Is that really the case? If so, perhaps the devs need to take away the ability to slot them with defense?

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Well they do help against defense debuffs since MoG has no defense debuff resistance. But since MoG is at least in the 70% range it already has plenty of room before it's debuffed to 45%.

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Doesn't MoG provide like 70% resists as well as insane defense?
so really you're getting hit 100% more often only means 30% more dmg total.

take that down to playing normal foes and (not +5 AV's) and you're only taking 15% more dmg than before. (assuming 7.5% floor for even of near level critters). My opinion on that is that it's not game breaking.

Let's put things into perspective though, SR scrappers get 20% resistance from their passives to go along with their defense.

It's the combination of resist and defense that makes MoG great.

Overload would be crazy in the hands of a regen, who could stack dull pain with overload for large total hit points... thereby buffing all regen powers plus having insane defense.

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MoG is a net resistance debuff not a buff. It needs to be slotted to get it even with everything but Psi, where it remains an effective 400% debuff to Psi.

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Probably 3 powers eaten up by stamina, as I'm not entirely expecting PowerSink + Attacks to be enough to keep end up. ((ED in Energy Aura can replace Stamina fine, but it cycles twice as fast as PS does)).

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Where are you getting the numbers that ED cycles twice as fast? I have an level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster and a level 40 EM/EA Brute so I have extensive experience with both Power Sink and Energy Drain. As far as I can tell, it is the same power with different animations (the ED animation is slightly longer.) They both have a recharge of 60 seconds unenhanced according to both Hero Planner and my personal experience.

I'm don't have the patience to spec out of Stamina for Power Sink (I'll just take both ) but unless there's some kind of Brute recharge modifier I'm missing and PS is the same for Brutes as it is for Blasters, it will be as viable a candidate for Stamina-replacement as Energy Drain.

(Sorry for the run-on sentence.)

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The downside with Power Sink is that it comes at 35 and it has to support a lot more toggles than Energy Drain.

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Make that AV +5 and his final accuracy is 95% (bounded from 100%)

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I was not under the impression that accuracy was ever capped. Capping (or bounding, whichever name you prefer) only applied in two places I thought:

1) After the addition/subtraction of baseToHit, Defense and ToHit Buffs/Debuffs.
2) To the final chance to hit, after everything else has been applied.

Which would mean a +5 AV had a full +100% accuracy (x2, meaning a floored 10% chance to hit). Incidentally, do we know for certain if it is treated as two separate accruacy buffs (1.5 (AV) * 1.5 (Level) = 2.25, floored 11.25%) or one combined buff (1 + (0.5 + 0.5) = 2.0, floored 10.0%)?

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The confusion (my fault) was that I was struggling for a term for the final, this is their chance to hit you number.

As for your question, I believe the accuracy mods are additive. I would swear that I read that somewhere, but that might have been in my fevered imagination.

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Everyone should just get over it. This is clearly a case where the DEVs are not going to hear the players. MoG has sucked though all 7 issues. I have an MA/Regen and a Kat/regen.

Come to think of it they did fix MoG, renamed it Overload and gave it to the energy brutes. I have a 36 nrg/nrg brute and am looking forward to it. Also, I am able to take on +1 and +2 on my nrg/nrg now . In I6 I get whooped unless I stick to white/blue which is why my nrg/nrg is retired til I7.

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You know, the devs may take a long time, but eventually they see reason. The AV to EB change is proof of that. It's why I can't give up. I'm not really upset about MoG, I'm just saying that the defense changes actually hurt this power.

So far the set seems good but balanced. The sound effects are OK, but they don't give you the sense of SMASH!! Graphics are nice.

Good job devs.

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I'll still trade ya MOG for Soul Transfer

and is it me or has this become the OH NO ANOTHER ISSUE AND MORE DOOOOM FOR REGEN thread?


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The first person to trot out that doom nonsense was you. And that wouldn't be a bad trade since you'll need Soul Transfer after using MoG!

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Now I do agree with you on this. City of Jumpers has another permanent member.

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This is my beef with this set. Every single hole with this set can be filled, but at the cost of being stuck with the Leaping Pool.

The lesser holes (low SM, LE mitigation, no self-heal) just draw to heavily from your build to take both. And power sink or no, you're going to have a LOT of toggles to run.

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Finally! Now you are talking!

Actually, I also like to idly speculate - but one must realize that pseclation is much weaker testing. More than one or two speculative posts before you start testing can give you a bad name.


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To quote Indigo Montoya: "You use that word a lot (speculate). I do not think it means what you think it means."

Saying without testing that you would get hit more with MoG wasn't speculation. It was simply understanding the mechanics of the change. That's something the cult of "Test it first!" never seems to understand.

To use an extreme example, if a patch note said, "All Dominators are now immune to all damage but Smashing," would you really need to test to consider the implications of that?

First tests

Powers used: Parry, MoG, 33% Lucks

Two test situations

1) Against a spawn of 12 DE Granite (Lts.) and Boulders (Minions) even con

Using MoG - Face Plant. The minions appeared to be capped. The Lts. which made up half of the spawn managed to wear me down before I could wear them down. (They had Lethal resists, I had a crap 38 power)

Using Parry and normal Regen powers - Victory. Same spawn, different result. Two of the Lts and a few minions were down from my MoG attempt. This time however, Parry seemed to work beautifully. Like Bill said it's hard to see much of a buff, but in Parry's case I could definitely tell it was there especially when double stacked. This might just be my subjective impression but it felt more secure.

Using 33% Lucks - Victory. I accidently interspersed Parry in this fight against a spawn of Rikti. With no need to worry about Psi I just waded in and tore up. The bosses were definitely hitting less, I think.

2) Against +2 Nemesis spawns in a mission instance in the Shard

Using MoG - Face Plant. Probably not MoG's fault this time, the minor toxic gas used by the robots hurt MoG a lot. But these +2 probably would have taken me down anyway there was still plenty of time left in the buff.

Using Parry and normal Regen powers - Laughably easy. I remember then why I don't have MoG on live. My normal regen powers (I didn't have to use IH) + Parry allowed me to take on two rooms full of Nemesis. I had about 12 shooting at me at once. However Parry and Reconstruction kept me topped off.

Using 33% lucks - Sleepwalk. Definitely can tell the scaling was there. Very easy.

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I'm somewhat limited in my test subjects but my impressions regarding MoG were validated by my testing as limited as it was. With an acc bonus, mobs are just getting more hits. Not a lot more, we should be mindful that MoG sucked before I7, but enough that it's noticeable. The even conned Lts v. minions showed me that clearly.

MoG should be fixed.

The defense changes are generally wonderful. Good job devs.

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Shadow Maul will not crit hit out of hide

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Cone attacks usually only get a chance to crit with Assassination.

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Wait, what's the difference between a To-Hit Buff and an Accuracy bonus? I don't understand what you guys are saying... Does Defense Scaling not mean that all enemies have the same accuracy or to-hit or whatever no matter what level they are? Doesn't this mean that your Defense powers don't have the normal -% effectiveness for fighting guys above your level?

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The guy who posted just above this post of yours has an excellent guide to defense linked in his signature. Read it, get confused. Then read it again, get confused again, by the third time it usually clicks.

If you're a super smarty smart like Arcana and Stupid Fanboy you'll be able to pick it up in the first read. Idiots like me need a few reads.

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So if i'm reading this right, defense still sucks at PvP?

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I wouldn't say that, but no there are no changes that are relevant to PvP other than SR scrappers losing their big AoE buffs.

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It seemed pretty obvious from Cricket's instructions that this isnt the forum for conjecture and there are too many factors to MOG's use to make your suspect conclusions viable.


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Please name them. What factors are there to MoG's use that would change any point I made?

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From Cricket's introduction:[ QUOTE ]
This thread is solely for discussions regarding the the new defense scaling system. From the Issue 7 Training Room patch notes
--snip--
All off topic posts will be removed. Please do not post bugs/feedback/balance issues before testing this content.

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Note that I added the bold for emphasis.

From Evil Geko[ QUOTE ]

1. No I haven't extensively tested this and I couldn't although I will test it. Probabalistic powers like defense are better tested mathematically. If you don't agree please feel free to flame me, but it doesn't change the facts.

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Honestly, why are we debating MOG instead of testing the defense scaling?

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Sigh... because the defense changes affect MoG since MoG is you know a defense power. Are we supposed to talk about the defense changes without talking about defensive powers? If so, how does that work?

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Momemt of Glory needs to be changed. This power depends on the mobs being at 5% final to-hit. The defense bonus was formerly high enough to make that so. Now with the changes this is much less likely to happen. Only even conned minions can be capped at 5%. Every other rank of mob will be higher.

Since MoG is rarely needed fighting even cons this is a significant downgrade. Any additional damage is meaningful to MoG since the power does not allow healing or regeneration.

I recommend one of the following:

1. Remove the HP drop

2. Remove the -heal, but keep the -regen

3. Throw the power out and replace it with Overload

4. Throw the power out and make it an actual regen power

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1. Don't use MoG.

2. Use Reconstruction, a fast charging heal power.

3. Get Drunk.

4. Profit.

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That is my current strategy. I'm looking for a reason to get sober!