EvilGeko

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As nice as QR is, it isn't infinite END even now. Without stamina, even regens have to manage END. In fact, even with QR and DC on my DM/Regen, I still run out of END in teams when I go all out. I'm afraid I can't take seriously the "unless regen has zero END problems at all, its broken" objection.


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I never said it would be broken, only that I would be so ticked off that I would leave. And the ability to stack QR with Stamina is part in parcel of the benefit of QR. Just like the reason the devs won't buff Healing Flames or Recon to match Aid Self because we can combine the two.

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A serious balance concern to me is that the devs use END as a limiting factor on offensive output. QR effectively means that not only does regen have the best damage mitigation, it a priori has - and cannot possibly not have - the best long term damage output. Nowhere in the description of regen do I see that conceptually it must beat everyone on damage mitigation and simultaneously must beat everyone on damage output.


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*Shrug* I think it's covered under the "No downtime provision." It's in the description now, I know it hasn't always been there. But you know, the devs use recharge as a limiting factor too and SR has an advantage there. The devs use our to-hit base as a limiting factor and Invul has (had?) an advantage there.

Is QR better than Invincibility or Quickness? Quickness for sure, the old Invincibility I would say no. But that gets to the point I've been making for awhile. SR is weak, Regen is not overpowered. Regen is simply good at what it does.

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The issue is that QR was originally meant to power IH, and now IH doesn't need powering. Which means QR is really giving an offensive benefit, not a defensive one, and a massive one that was probably not originally intended. On the defensive side of the equation, regen now burns more end than it used to because of reconstruction, which is in effect replacing a lot of the original benefit of IH, at lower end cost.


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Well we can't go to original construction, because originally Regen was able to mitigate the damage of Monsters like the Kronos Titan solo. They took that away. A happy benefit of that is now Regens get to be the energizer bunnies of CoH.

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If regen's actual regeneration was less dependent on burning END - if in essence regen didn't cost end to run - QR's reason for existence would be greatly lessened.


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Not really. It's reason to exist is for utility. SR doesn't really depend on Quickness for any of it's mainline mitigation (Well maybe a bit on PB). Invul certainly doesn't require the to-hit buff in Invincibility. QR is a benefit. Just like the endurance drains in the Tanker/Brute sets.

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I wouldn't worry though. The devs have repeatedly stated both publicly and privately that they have no intention of altering QR. I think its because they are afraid of pissing regen scrappers off at this point. Which is good for regen scrappers, and I play regen scrappers, but when that carries more weight than actual material balance concerns, I'm not so sure that's really a good thing.


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The thing is, I don't think it's fear. I think Regen is just fine the way it is. It's not godmode, it's just a really good solid fun set. SR is broken. SR is the problem. They are doing this critter accuracy scaling to help SR. That's the appropriate way to look at it.

You're looking at it as Regen is so much more powerful than SR. NURF THEM. Sure you're saying it nicer and more reasonably, but in the end that's what you're saying. It's because both you and the devs can't figure out how to make SR be reasonably on par with Regen in a way that maintains the essential character of SR.

For me, this ridiculous mindset that sets can't be too similar is folly. There's only so many ways you can package healing, resistance and defense. At some point you just have to suck it up and accept that while defense might be SR's FOCUS it can't be its only appreciable means of mitigation.

All four Scrapper sets need varying levels of healing, resistance and defense.

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If nothing else, consider that if that's the mindset, if they ever change their mind, logic is not going to be a useful weapon to get them to change it back. Personally, I'd rather have what I have because the devs honestly think its the right thing for me to have, and not because of fear. SR has the (low) defense it has because of fear: just fear of a completely different sort.

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The presumption here is that the devs aren't nerfing QR solely because they don't want to tick us off. Well hell if they were so worried about ticking us off they sure as heck got over it in time for I3-I6. More likely is that the devs just don't agree with you that QR is that bad. It's really not. I don't feel my DM/Invul is so much worse off than my Spines/Regen. I don't.

In teams, endurance isn't the biggest problem anyway. And that's how the devs play.

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MoG is pretty darn good in RV right now. You'd be stupid not to take it.

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Not my experience. Any villain who understands how defense work will cut through MoG in seconds.

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i'm not kidding when i say this, but if regen lost quick recovery without being given back another +end power, i'd quit.

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Sounds like a challenge. I believe I can design a regen set without quick recovery and without another +end power (sorta) you might still want to play, and would still basically fit the description of regen having the best downtime. But it'll have to wait until I can write it all up.

Give you a hint, though. Suppose integration wasn't so important anymore, and the constant reconstruction clicking went away?

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Anything that would require me to actually look at the blue bar is BS. If your idea makes me spend one minute in endurance management with my precious Kyll, it's an awful idea and I shall poke a voodoo doll with your image repeatedly.

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Thought #1: doubling recovery != 1/2 end cost (conserve power). Doubling recovery is better. I don't know why people keep saying that.


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Agree. When you're not attacking you're still getting back endurance faster. That's the problem with skipping Stamina for me even if I can afford it with endurance reducers.

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Thought #2: Regen does better than match the other secondaries with the first 7. Buffing the last two would cause me to wonder why the best set was getting buffed, when the lower two (SR, Invuln) were not.


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Because MoG is broken and Revive is not useful enough for a tier 8 power. SR is broken. It won't be fixed until the devs add a self heal to it and stop making SRs take seven powers that all buff the same stat. Invul won't be fixed until they roll back some of its nerfs. I support doing that AND fixing Revive and MoG.

Does Regen need the buff? No. But MoG is stupid the way it is. A panic button power should provide more mitigation that the powers that precede it.

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Thought #3: Revive probably should be buffed, if for no other reason than high level self-revives should have some benefit beyond eliminating the trip back from the hospital. You're dead: you've already paid the price for your hubris. A buff on a self-revive is much less balance-altering than anything else.


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Just halve the debt when you revive. Give DA 33% debt reduction per mob they drain. Those powers will be immediately more popular.

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Thought #4: Funny you should mention this, because in my (as yet unposted) scrapper secondary balance analysis, I considered the option of taking quick recovery away from regen, strengthening it, and giving it to SR. Net damage mitigation change: zero. And yet, it creates all sorts of interesting balance opportunities.

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You get your hands off me QR hippie. You need to stop with this foolishness and start working for what WILL fix SR. I.E. Roll the AoE toggle into the Ranged toggle and then replace the AoE toggle with a Reconstruction clone. Get drunk. Profit.

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hey eg,i have seen you in the chat channel a few times.each time though you do not respond.do you have a new toon without the lounge in the chat options by chance?

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Yes, as you found out, there are several of my characters who have yet to add the Lounge to their chat tabs.

Stamina base - 25 end per minute .42 per second

First figure is endurance per minute; second is endurance per second.

1 slot 33.25/.554
2 slots 41.5/.691
3 slots 48.75/.812
4 slots 50/.833
5 slots 51.25/.854
6 slots 52.5/.875

So slots 4-6 net you in total 3.75/.063

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I honestly just can't see ANY reason to complain about the set anymore. It's golden in my book.

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QFT

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QFE, QFT +1

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FYI: Electric Shields' Grounding Power will have Immobilize and Knockback Protection added. The set will still not have a Heal power or HP Buff power.

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The opportunity cost of Fiery Aura just went up.

~Gabriel

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Yup. First thing I thought too.

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FYI: Electric Shields' Grounding Power will have Immobilize and Knockback Protection added. The set will still not have a Heal power or HP Buff power.

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I think this need to be on a case by case basis though.

Slice and its Katana equivalent have wide cones already. Shadow Maul is about in the middle and Headsplitter is a tiny cone (basically they need to be bunched up).

I'm not sure either of the BS/Katana cones needs to be buffed, but Shadow Maul should be IMO.

I'm with DarthMord. I don't trust that the buff to MoG would compensate for the nerf to potential regen. And Castle said they're going to change MoG at some point, just that it's not a priority. Maybe someday it will make it to the "Soon" category.

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On one hand I'm interested in seeing MoG (and perhaps IH) getting a tweak/fix, but on the other hand I'm so happy they're *finally* leaving Regen alone for once.

I'm enjoying it as it is now, without having MoG btw (that power is still really silly) and I'm still a little worried that if they ever make more tweaks to Regen, Quick Recovery is up for the chopping block next (considering the reasons the Devs gave why Brutes had no Regen and Stalkers no QR).

Edit: oh and I justed joined that channel "the regen lounge", to check it out, yet there's completely *noone* around but myself

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As for the chat channel, it's been hard to catch people on. I was on a lot last night, if you see me on give a shout out.

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I take them. I'm not a min/maxer, but I also advocate taking them as well.

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* Reads Arcanaville's multiple posts using statistical analysis too complicated for the devs to bother with to divine whether his powers are actually giving the bonus he already browbeat the devs to find out.*

Umm... yes, you are a min/maxer. Yessir you are. No doubt about it. Min/maxing isn't all about uberizing your characters.

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What gets me about this set is that the damage mitigation is VERY similar to what EA has but it has holes in it's mez protection where EA has none.

I can live with the holes in the mez protection but we should get something for it.

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The devs will probably tell you end drain and Psi/toxic protection. Those are EA's holes. They aren't that big and high energy defense is pseudo end drain resists (since most of those attacks are energy based).

But for me EA is the better deal.

Please do join up. I play at odd hours these days (newborn in the house) but I'll be making operators of the old Regen guard.

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I have noticed that many people seem to consider Conserve power redundant when a set already has Energy Drain or Power Sink.

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I just think it's redundant because the power is in Energy Armor already. Kinda takes away from the uniqueness of the set.
All of the extra utility powers should be unique to that particular set, IMO.

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Well, to keep the theme going, you would have to put Conserve power only in EA and add another power to the set, then take Energy Drain and put it in Electric Armor. That would make it match the blaster secondary sets for theme.

However, after giving EA both powers I don't see how they can't give both powers to Electric Armor. Also, I can see players taking either, or both depending on Primary. Dark Melee/Electric Armor may just want Conserve Power for instance. What primary set you look at can make a big difference in what a secondary needs or doesn't need.

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Actually that wouldn't have been a bad idea. I liked the name of the Peacebringer heal (Restore essence?) as a template for EA. So it would have gotten conserve power and restore energy which would have just been a reconstruction clone.

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Ok well to keep them nerfing revive and MoG I suggest we start talking those powers up.......ok never mind I could never post anything without laughing trying to do that.

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I kinda like revive :/ It could be better sure...

Keep em nerfin MoG. What MoG needs is say a 5 minute duraction. yeah. Just to be sure you're dead give it a pbaoe taunt-field.

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lol

The Regen Lounge

is now a global chat channel. Please feel free to join. Nonsense welcome, fights not. Nerf-herding will get you silenced.

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The only reason the Villains have been getting PWND in Recluse's Victory is sheer numbers.

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Yeah why don't all the heros go test all their new stuff!

OH WAIT!

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lol

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Some people see a lack of a heal as a weakness, yet not one single person would claim that Energy Armor or Super Reflexes is underperforming and they don't have heals or dull pain either.

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You don't read Arcanaville's post much do you? He has a LONG hypermath intensive post over on the Scrapper forum that shows that one of the greatest determinates to a defensive sets performance is a self-heal.

As for Elec Armor, it's going live without major changes. Enough people are willing to accept the disadvantages. That makes baby Geko happy. Whatever Statesman says about balance, the devs are more than willing to allow some sets to outperform others.

Electric Armor's 38 is very nice and that should at least allow Electric Brutes to take on their AVs and Elite Bosses in the 40s. Shrug. I'm almost willing to go through the frustration just so I can whine about it later.

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just read the notes. not bad, guys, not bad at all. All we get is a moderate nerf to a power that the majority of us skip anyone. I can live with that.

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Ditto. While I would like it changed. I guess it wouldn't be an issue without some kind of Regen nerf.

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Think we can keep them only nerfing MoG from now on? Would be nice.

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They can nerf Revive too.

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just read the notes. not bad, guys, not bad at all. All we get is a moderate nerf to a power that the majority of us skip anyone. I can live with that.

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Ditto. While I would like it changed. I guess it wouldn't be an issue without some kind of Regen nerf.

Working with a lowbie TA on test, I still get hit with the impression that this set doesn't bring a lot to a team in low levels. All I can suggest on this point is that Flash Arrow needs to be significantly stronger than Smoke/Smoke Grenade/Etc and Entagling Arrow significantly stronger than Web Grenade and Controller/Blaster level 1 Immobilizes.

The to-hit debuff needs to be on par with radiant infection. By level 2 a Rad Defender has a very strong offensive/defensive debuff and a heal. A TA defender has a web grenade with a small slow and a small -perception, -to-hit buff.

What I find problematic about this is that these powers are BLASTER powers in the devices secondary. Sure they are better, but they need to be A LOT better. Entagling Arrow should be a substantial -recharge buff.

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thanks for the replies to my question regarding MoG

to go back to what you were saying at the beginning of the thread
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I recommend one of the following:

1. Remove the HP drop

2. Remove the -heal, but keep the -regen

3. Throw the power out and replace it with Overload

4. Throw the power out and make it an actual regen power

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sounds like

5. Shorten the duration of MoG

would actually be the most appropriate action to take. It's still great at what it does, only in the short term. The defense scaling changes haven't changed that.

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To do that you would need to lose the crash (15 seconds no regen) at the end. Which is appropriate since you get a HP crash at the beginning. The recharge should be proportionally reduced as well.

So it would be something like 60-90 duration with a 500 sec. recharge.

And that still leaves the gaping Psi and Toxic holes which should be plugged. No 38 defensive power should debuff you to a damage type so much that it becomes insta-debt.

To do that just change the defense to positional me, rng, AoE, and grant the 71% resists to Psi as well. The power would still be inferior to Elude, but not so much so that it's unfair.

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Except those two lucks lasted 1 minute and only affected things slightly (-25% base accuracy.) 25*1.5*1.3=48.75% accuracy. The AV will most likely only have to swing three times and you are dead (and AVs generally attack pretty fast, so that the healing over time is not as good.)

Saying that MoG is only as good as a few lucks is a disservice.

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Two lucks simultaneously is identical to the effective defense bonus of MoG with none of the downside. Of course they only last 1/3 of the time. Howerver, for a fight where I have a choice between no healing for 3 minutes and expending six lucks, I'll prefer the lucks.

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No, you are going by the "100%" value of Lucks which is 25%/35%/50% defense.

They are actually 1/2 of that value against the base accuracy. So 12.5%/16.5%/25%.

It would actually take two *large* lucks. Two little lucks would only affect things slightly, as I understand it.

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Can you quote a red name? I've spent a lot of time testing this and I see no evidence that they are "1/2 of that value against the base accuracy."