EvilGeko

Congratulations Guys! Let the farming begin!!

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Boo! Scared ya didn't I? Probably never expected to see my sorry but in the Regen Lounge again.

At least our string of Issue nerfs is alive and well from the look of things. Think I'll take up my old seat here in the Lounge and get caught up.

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When the only nerfs was making a crappy power crappier, you gotta feel good about an issue, I figure.

So after ED and the current change, HOs are going back to 50% for schedule A right?

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I'm not sure if I should be flattered, or disturbed.

The odd thing is after reviewing them carefully, this technically doesn't appear to violate any of the forum's rules, as it is an actual guide, of sorts.

Whether this is an exploit, or just working as intended, is I suppose the question.

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I checked the rules. It would probably be exploitive for YOU to post a guide to yourself, because you would be cross-posting. Doesn't stop the rest of us.

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I've been looking through the Prima Guide and notice that it lists the values for Aim and Build Up differently from how we've been assuming they all worked. We all had believed that Build-Up was +50% To-Hit, +100% Damage, and Aim was +100% To-Hit, +50% Damage.

According to the downloadable Prima guide, however, Build Up gives +20% To-Hit, +80% Damage, and Aim gives +42.5% To-Hit, +42.5% Damage.

What's up with that?

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That changes based on AT. For instance Scrappers and Blasters do get 100% damage from BU. As for the to-hit numbers, we as players notoriously overestimate the value on to-hit buffs. People were quoting FA (me included) at 33% when it is really 18%. Massive difference.

Basically only a few posts (e.g. Arcanaville, Stupid_Fanboy, Starsman, etc.) should be trusted with statistical stats like that.

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So that means it takes 6 lucks to equal the defense protection that mog gives minus the psi of course?

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Minus the psi and toxic.

ARCANAVILLE SEZ (This post was in response to a methodology Starsman created to evaluate all defensive sets):


To be honest, I'm still trying to figure out all of your calculations based on the spreadsheet and your original posting of the methodology. It seems to be roughly comparable to my immortality line calculations from my scrapper comparison threads (which apparently were purged, I guess I'll have to repost them at some point), with certain differences (for example, they seem to presume perma-DP, whereas mine averaged DP).

And that's puzzling to me, because my own calculations showed regen superior to invuln on smash/lethal, even with saturated invincibility and no instant healing.

Because the thread is gone, I'll reproduce my immortality line calculations here. These calculations are rough estimates for the average sustainable damage for each AT - such that any more is eventually lethal. This seems comparable to the calculation you're doing, I think.

I've added a section not in the original: invuln with *maximum* invincibility:

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Basic SR immortality line equation:
dps * (0.5 - defense) * (1 - res) = 100%/240s
dps = 100%/240s / (0.5 - defense) / (1 - res)

Basic Invuln immortality line equation:
dps * (0.5 + 0.05 - defense) * (1 - res) * 0.63 * 120s + dps * (0.5 + 0.05 - defense) * (1 - res) * 65s = 100%/240s * 185s + 78% * 0.63
dps * (0.55 - defense) * (1 - res) * (0.63 * 120s + 65s) = 77.1% + 49.1% = 126.2%
dps = 126.2% / (0.55 - defense) / (1 - res) / (140.6s)

Basic DA immortality line equation:
dps * (0.5 - defense) * (1 - res) * 30s = 100%/240s * 30s + 39.9% * (#targets)
dps = (12.5% + 39.9% * #targets) / (0.5 - defense) / (1 - res) / 30s

Basic Regen immortality line equation:
dps * 0.5 * (1 - res) * 0.63 * 120s + dps * 0.5 * (1- res) * 65s = 100%/240s * 4.9 * 185 + 49.1% + 4 * 48.75% * 0.63 + 2 * 48.75%
dps * 0.5 * (1 - res) * (140.6s) = 377.7% + 49.1% + 122.8% + 97.5% = 647.1%
dps = 647.1% / 0.5 / (1 - res) / 140.6s


SR immortality line:
Best case s/l/f/c/e/n: dps = 100%/240s / (0.5 - 0.304) / (0.76) = 2.80%/sec
Worst case s/l/f/c/e/n: dps = 100%/240s / (0.196) / (0.9) = 2.36%/sec
Toxic/psi: dps = 100%/240s / 0.196 = 2.13%/sec

Invuln immortality line:
smash/lethal: dps = 126.2% / (0.55 - 0.129) / (1 - 0.497) / 140.6s = 4.23%/s
fire/cold/energy/negative: dps = 126.2% / (0.55 - 0.129) / (1 - 0.205) / 140.6s = 2.68%/s
toxic: dps = 126.2% / (0.55) / (1 - 0.205) / 140.6s = 2.05%/s
psi: dps = 126.2% / (0.55) / (1) / (140.6s) = 1.63%/s

Invuln Maximal Invincibility immortality line:
(21.645% invincibility, 5.85% TH, 27.495% defense total)
smash/lethal: dps = 126.2% / (0.55 - 0.27495) / (1 - 0.497) / 140.6s = 6.49%/s
fire/cold/energy/negative: dps = 126.2% / (0.55 - 0.27495) / (1 - 0.205) / 140.6s = 4.10%/s
toxic: dps = 126.2% / (0.55) / (1 - 0.205) / 140.6s = 2.05%/s
psi: dps = 126.2% / (0.55) / (1) / (140.6s) = 1.63%/s

DA (one target DR) immortality line:
smash/lethal/fire/cold: dps = 52.4% / (0.5 - 0.051) / (1 - 0.351) / 30s = 5.99%/s
energy/toxic: dps = 52.4% / (0.5 - 0.051) / (1 - 0.234) / 30s = 5.08%/s
negative: dps = 52.4% / (0.5 - 0.051) / (1 - 0.468) / 30s = 7.31%/s
psi: dps = 52.4% / (0.5 - 0.051) / (1 - 0.585) / 30s = 9.37%/s

DA (two target DR) immortality line:
smash/lethal/fire/cold: dps = 92.3% / (0.5 - 0.051) / (1 - 0.351) / 30s = 10.56%/s
energy/toxic: dps = 92.3% / (0.5 - 0.051) / (1 - 0.234) / 30s = 8.95%/s
negative: dps = 92.3% / (0.5 - 0.051) / (1 - 0.468) / 30s = 12.88%/s
psi: dps = 92.3% / (0.5 - 0.051) / (1 - 0.585) / 30s = 16.51%/s

Regen immortality line:
smash/lethal/toxic: dps = 647.1% / 0.5 / (1 - 0.088) / 140.6s = 10.09%/s
fire/cold/energy/negative/psi: dps = 647.1% / 0.5 / (1) / 140.6s = 9.20%/s

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These numbers use up to date SR scrapper defense numbers.


If I'm misunderstanding your calculations, and you are actually computing a time to live style calculation (how long you can survive), then here are my relative 185 second survival calculations for the four scrapper sets:


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Basic SR 185 second survival equation:
dps * (0.5 - defense) * (1 - res) * 185s = 100%/240s * 185s + 100% = 177.08%
dps = 177.08% / (0.5 - defense) / (1 - res) / 185s

Basic Invuln 185 second survival equation:
dps * (0.5 + 0.05 - defense) * (1 - res) * 0.63 * 120s + dps * (0.5 + 0.05 - defense) * (1 - res) * 65s = 100%/240s * 185s + 78% * 0.63 + 100%
dps * (0.55 - defense) * (1 - res) * (0.63 * 120s + 65s) = 77.1% + 49.1% +100% = 226.2%
dps = 226.2% / (0.55 - defense) / (1 - res) / (140.6s)

Basic DA 185 second survival equation:
dps * (0.5 - defense) * (1 - res) * 185s = 100%/240s * 185s + 39.9% * (#targets) * 6 + 100%
dps = (177.08% + 239.4% * #targets) / (0.5 - defense) / (1 - res) / 185s
dps = 416.48% / (0.5 - defense) / (1 - res) / 185s [one target DR]
dps = 655.88% / (0.5 - defense) / (1 - res) / 185s [two target DR]

Basic Regen 185 second survival equation:
dps * 0.5 * (1 - res) * 0.63 * 120s + dps * 0.5 * (1- res) * 65s = 100%/240s * 4.9 * 185 + 49.1% + 4 * 48.75% * 0.63 + 2 * 48.75% + 100%
dps * 0.5 * (1 - res) * (140.6s) = 377.7% + 49.1% + 122.8% + 97.5% + 100% = 747.1%
dps = 747.1% / 0.5 / (1 - res) / 140.6s


SR 185 second survival:
Best case s/l/f/c/e/n: dps = 177.08% / (0.5 - 0.304) / (1 - 0.24) / 185s = 6.43%/s
Worst case s/l/f/c/e/n: 177.08% / (0.196) / (0.9) / 185s = 5.43%/s
Toxic/psi: 177.08% / (0.196) / (1) / 185s = 4.88%/s

Invuln 185 second survival:
smash/lethal: dps = 226.2% / (0.55 - 0.129) / (1 - 0.497) / 140.6s = 7.60%/s
fire/cold/energy/negative: dps = 226.2% / (0.421) / (1 - 0.205) / 140.6s = 4.81%/s
toxic: dps = 226.2% / 0.55 / 0.795 / 140.6s = 3.68%/s
psi: dps = 226.2% / 0.55 / 1 / 140.6s = 2.93%/s

Invuln Maximal Invincibility immortality line:
(21.645% invincibility, 5.85% TH, 27.495% defense total)
smash/lethal: dps = 226.2% / (0.55 - 0.27495) / (1 - 0.497) / 140.6s = 11.63%/s
fire/cold/energy/negative: dps = 226.2% / (0.27505) / (1 - 0.205) / 140.6s = 7.36%/s
toxic: dps = 226.2% / 0.55 / 0.795 / 140.6s = 3.68%/s
psi: dps = 226.2% / 0.55 / 1 / 140.6s = 2.93%/s

DA (one target DR) 185 second survival:
smash/lethal/fire/cold: dps = 416.48% / 0.449 / 0.649 / 185s = 7.73%/s
energy/toxic: dps = (416.48%) / 0.449 / (1 - 0.234) / 185s = 6.55%/s
negative: dps = (416.48%) / 0.449 / (1 - 0.468) / 185s = 9.42%/s
psi: dps = (416.48%) / 0.449 / (1 - 0.585) / 185s = 12.08%/s

DA (two target DR) 185 second survival:
smash/lethal/fire/cold: dps = 655.88% / 0.449 / 0.649 / 185s = 12.17%/s
energy/toxic: dps = (655.88%) / 0.449 / (1 - 0.234) / 185s = 10.31%/s
negative: dps = (655.88%) / 0.449 / (1 - 0.468) / 185s = 14.84%/s
psi: dps = (655.88%) / 0.449 / (1 - 0.585) / 185s = 19.03%/s

Regen 185 second survival:
smash/lethal/toxic: dps = 747.1% / 0.5 / (1 - 0.088) / 140.6s = 11.65%/s
fire/cold/energy/negative/psi: dps = 747.1% / 0.5 / 1 / 140.6s = 10.63%/s

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These too use updated SR scrapper defense numbers (30.4% instead of 27.3%). It also underestimates regen's toxic resistance, because in my original postings I did not factor in the toxic resistance of reconstruction.


Something isn't quite meshing between mine and yours, and I'm not quite sure what it is. Maybe you can spot it faster than I can.


As an appendix, this is the original section of my posting that explained the calculations (you can also get some explanation of how these calculations work in the I5 version of this comparison, which is still around in the guides section)


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Some explanation is in order. First, what's going on with DA. SR balances damage rate with regeneration rate. There is no mention of time in the SR equations. The reason is that SR's damage mitigation mechanisms work the same way moment by moment: their performance is constant when measured against average damage rates. But DA doesn't quite work that way: Dark Regeneration doesn't deliver a constant amount of healing per second, but rather one large heal every 30 seconds. Now, technically speaking, we could calculate the average heal per second of DR, and in essence average out its effect. And in fact, in this specific case, that would work fine. But instead, we look at the net effect of one whole cycle, instead of averaging out: if the scrapper is taking exactly as much damage as he can regenerate, then the net change in health every DR cycle should be zero. For simple calculations, this works just as well, but later, when we do more complex calculations, this way of looking at things (looking at cyclical powers by looking at what happens in one cycle, and extrapolating) will become more powerful. In particular, it will guide us when looking at another power: Dull Pain. The other thing to note about DA is how dependent on DR's performance it is: the difference between hitting one and two targets on average with DR is large. Its so large that instead of averaging (considering 1.5 targets for DR for example) I show both situations separately.

Handling Dull Pain
Dull Pain has a number of tricky aspects. First of all, while its active, it boosts health by 59% (1.59). How do we measure the benefit of a health boost? One way would be to literally treat it as an increase of health. This would as a byproduct increase the regeneration rate in absolute terms, because the regeneration rate is proportional to the amount of health. But that makes the math much more complicated, and then there is the additional problem of dealing with Dull Pain's expiration: your health will shrink in equal proportion.

There is a simpler alternative: measure everything in terms of percentage of health (as mentioned earlier). When you view the situation in that way, then when Dull Pain is active, in effect it does nothing to your health bar - Dull Pain's +health does not change the percentage of your maximum health you have. What it does instead is decrease the relative damage you take from any damage source. An attack that would normally do X% of your health bar when it lands will now do X% * 1/1.59 = 0.63 * X% of your new stretched health bar. An example might help:

100 damage vs 1000 health: 10% of health
100 damage vs Dull Pain stretched health = 1000 * 1.59 = 1590 health: 100/1590 = 0.063 = 6.3% of health.

In effect, while dull pain is active, it behaves as if you have 1 - (1 / DPfactor) resistance. When Dull Pain is slotted for +59% health boost, it behaves as if you have 1 - 1/1.59 = 0.37, or 37% resistance. You'll take 63% of the damage you'd normally take.

Note that using this perspective, regeneration remains constant. Regeneration is still ticking away at the same %/s rate, whether your health bar is stretched or not: this is a major advantage for this methodology in terms of simplifying the calculations (if you think this methodology somehow overlooks something, or doesn't reflect reality properly, you're free to perform the direct calculations: I guarantee you they will always match these calculations precisely, because this is just a change in units).

Dull Pain also has a heal. 3-slotted with Heal Enhancements, the heal is +78%. But its +78% of base health. Its very important to note how dull pain works: first it "stretches" your health bar, then it applies the heal. Since the heal is 78% of the original health bar, its only 78%/1.59 = 49.1% of the new, stretched health bar. And that is important, because to be consistent, the heal has to be accounted for in terms of percentage of the *current* health bar at all times.

So to account for Dull Pain accurately, we treat it as 120 seconds of 37% resistance, in the sense of reducing damage by 37% (this pseudo resistance does not stack with any other resistances - DP "resistance" and true resistance take effect independently), and 65 seconds of no dull pain related resistance. Also, although Dull Pain has +78% base heal, we have to account for it mathematically as a 49.1% net heal - because for us, the "%" is "percent of current health bar" instead of "percent of original health bar."

When Regeneration runs Dull Pain, we have one more thing to consider: reconstruction heals for 48.75% of base health: while DP is up, just like the Dull Pain heal itself, reconstruction's heal has to be adjusted to be a percentage of the adjusted health bar (48.75%/1.59 = 30.7%). When DP is down, reconstruction does heal for 48.75%.

In summary, if we want to see the net effect of dull pain over a complete cycle of dull pain, we calculate all of the damage taken in 185 seconds, compared to all of the regeneration in 185 seconds. For immortality line calculations, the net effect on health for a full cycle of Dull Pain should be zero, since whatever happens in one cycle will happen over and over again.

damage during DP up: dps * (nettohit) * (1-res) * 0.63 * 120 seconds
damage during DP down: dps * (nettohit * (1-res) * 65 seconds

Regeneration during 185 seconds (remember, in this methodology regen rate is constant throughout DP cycle): 100%/240s * time
DP's heal: 49.1%

Note that the total damage in 185 seconds:

dps * (nettohit) * (1-res) * 0.63 * 120 + dps * (nettohit) * (1-res) * 65
= dps * nettohit * (1-res) * (0.63 * 120 + 65)
= dps * nettohit * (1-res) * (140.6)

So another way of looking at dull pain is that normally net damage in 185 seconds would be:

dps * nettohit * (1-res) * 185s

but dull pain reduces that to

dps * nettohit * (1-res) * 140.6s

which means dull pain reduces net damage over the entire cycle to 140.6/185 = 0.76 of the total amount. If you wanted to express the average benefit of Dull Pain, one rough measure is to say that over time, it reduces net incoming damage by 0.24 or 24%, and applies a 49.1% heal every 185 seconds (slotted as described earlier without hasten).

One question that comes up periodically is: is Dull Pain more of a healing power, or more of a damage mitigation power. We can answer that question: the mitigation level is 24%, and the average health regeneration is 49.1%/185s = 0.265%/sec. For all net damage levels higher than 0.265%/s / 0.24 = 1.1%/sec, Dull Pain mitigates more than it heals. For all net damage levels lower than 1.1%/sec, Dull Pain is more of a healing power than a damage mitigation power. To put that into perspective, a level 50 minion that does 100 points of damage every 5 seconds lands 10 points of damage per second on an invuln with 50% tohit (i.e. defense balances unyielding). At level 50, that is 10/1338 = 0.00747, 0.747%/sec.

So for all levels of damage higher than facing more than about one and a half even minions, Dull Pain is more mitigation than heal.

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ARCANAVILLE SEZ:

A lot of people have reported oddities with inspirations, especially lucks, and occasionally insights. I finally had a chance to test those out. Wasn't easy, let me tell you, and the tests were nowhere near the level of precision I would like to have, but I was able to see pretty conclusively variations in the behavior of the insps over what we all assumed was their behavior, based on their textual descriptions. So I had something of positive proof to take to the devs for enlightenment.


The textual descriptions are wrong: very very wrong.


Here is what the insps actually do, according to pohsyb:


DEF
S - 12.5%
M - 25%
L - 33%

ACC
S - 7.5%
M - 18.75%
L - 37.5%

RES
S - 10%
M - 15%
L - 20%

DMG
S -25%
M - 33%
L - 50%

Well, at least they got the damage and resistance ones right. But lucks are half the strength you think they are, and insights were created with a random number generator.

(Please don't reply that the insights aren't actually random, I know that.)

The good news is that SR isn't a little more than one small luck, its a little less than three. At least I think that's good news: all of you that were wondering why you sometimes needed to chomp four or five of these little guys now know why: it takes five of these guys to floor an even level boss in I6 (four in I7).

The bad news is that lucks and insights aren't actually balanced. In lower level zones where drops are often the smaller variety, lucks are a little stronger than insights. Not too much, but some. In RV, where drops are more often of the larger variety, insights are stronger than lucks.

So as tohit buffs become more common, from the BB to SC to WB to RV, insights also become more powerful than lucks. That's probably not a good thing either.


You would think by now we wouldn't trust the text descriptions for anything, and here's yet more proof that you shouldn't believe everything you read. Unless it comes from me, of course.


And this is worth noting: because lucks are defense, and therefore probabilistic in nature, not everyone will tend to see "average" performance. Some people will see behavior close to what they really do, and extrapolate their performance correctly, and some people will see bursty behavior that is out of line with their true behavior, and extrapolate their behavior incorrectly.

But in this case, it was the people who complained about seeing oddities that were right, and the people who thought they were working correctly that were wrong. Including me: sorry guys and gals, it took me a while to eventually come around and devote testing time to this.


The question, of course, is whether anyone else but me will know this, after this thread gets pushed down into page 42 with all the Issue 7 threads.

Arcanaville spends all this time doing hard math so that we can be uber and the darn forums eats her stuff! NO MORE!

If you see a long math filled post by ARCANAVILLE - Post it here!

Change the name of the subject to the name of the post! See the post below for an example.

Great job, but one thing:

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You would think by now we wouldn't trust the text descriptions for anything, and here's yet more proof that you shouldn't believe everything you read. Unless it comes from me, of course.

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Are you sure you're female? That kind of self-aggrandizement is more typical of the lamer (male) gender. You've been hanging around us too long.

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Its actually intended to preserve the psionic and toxic weaknesses the devs seem to insist they want to impose on MoG, but soften them significantly by allowing Instant Healing which would mitigate that damage (but I made a typo I'll correct in a moment). A compromise between what the players want, and what the devs might need to see it as not overpowered.


[/ QUOTE ]

MoG currently has Toxic resistance. It probably would have Toxic defense if such a thing existed.

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And as to using recon: I presumed that this would retain the "immune to healing and regeneration" that the current MoG has, *except* for its own inherent Instant Healing. The presumption is that Elude + IH is good enough for anyone, especially because this doesn't have a crash (as I think no self rez ought to). Its mainly to give regens an extended "immunity" after rez that allows the regen to bounce back, fight, retoggle or whatever, and then transition smoothly back into the fight - all things that seem reasonable if you've already died once. And if you've died once, the presumption is that a lot of +regen might not have been doing it for you, so this power gives you 60 seconds of something else - high defense - to buy your way out of trouble.


[/ QUOTE ]

I figured that. But Reconstruction also gives 15% toxic resistance.

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MoG: when you fall, you can activate this power to revive yourself. When you return, you return with 70% resistances to all but toxic/psi, 25% maximum health, 60% defense, and +800% (Instant) healing. The power lasts 60 seconds, and has 650 second base recharge. When it expires, your maximum health returns to normal, and you are left with your current health and endurance (i.e. no crash).


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Strange no toxic resists since that's one of Regen's strengths. Not a deal breaker since we could just hit recon. I'd be very happy with this version of MoG. Like DO said the defense would either have to be positional or base defense.

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Hey Castle, is there any chance we could also get an animation speed enhancement made to Regen/Reconstruction? PWEEEEZ?

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Reconstruction is still faster than Healing Flames. It really doesn't need a buff.

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i love this whole discussion but this has to be the most fanciful conversation that's taken place in either of the Lounges, moreso than even the "create-a-nerf" stuff. I really don't ever see them going back on their stance concerning risk. All this stuff would make soloing much easier and I just don't think they'd ever do that. Situational power has been their design goal for the last 4 rounds of nerfs.

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True but to dream the impossible dream can be fun sometimes. After all we're all just sitting around in this old stinky lounge after all anyway.....

Pass the beer nuts EG.

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*Passes beer nuts and beer*

SF, of course, you're right. But this idea, not even a buff or nerf, just makes so much darn sense. Sigh.

Situational uberness - oxymoron

What's so uber about being situational?

[ QUOTE ]
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Get rid of toggle dropping and getting mezzed would be annoying but fine.

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The reason why I prefer to shift defense into the passives rather than totally remove toggle dropping is that I think controllers detoggling half your protection (but not most of it) makes a whole lot more sense to me than controllers doing containment. If this unnecessary "toggles must be stronger than passives" idea went out the door, and was replaced with "give the baseline protection to the passives, and give the "extra" protection we want them to have to the toggles," detoggling would make more sense. It would serve much like the downtime of dull pain or the limited uptime of IH does: that level of protection would be extra protection to allow scrappers to be more hardy situationally, but you couldn't count on it.

Mez would then be knocking scrappers down from "great" to "good" and not "good" to "kitten." Which would be another difference between tankers and scrappers: tankers, with the stronger mez magnitude protection, would be much less likely to be detoggled, which means they get to keep their "extra" protection under much more hostile conditions. Which is exactly what we want.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK I can dig that.

signed.

So that would make Regen something like this:

Fast healing - 200% Regen buff passive
Recon - same
QR - same
DP - same
Integration - super mez resists to hold, sleep, disorient, immobilize (reduced held time to 1/3) passive
Resilience - mez PROTECTION to disorient (only protection, very thematic for regen) 10% Sm, Le, Toxic resists
Instant Healing - same
Revive - same
MoG - Fixed somehow

--------------------

And Invul something like:

RPD - 12.75% Sm, Le passive
TI - 20.25% Sm, Le toggle
DP - same
Resist Elements - 13.125% Sm, Le, Toxic
Unyielding - Mega resists to status
Resist Energies 13.125%
Invincibility - 2% for first mob, then 1% thereafter cap 10
Tough Hide - 7.5% defense to all but Psi
Unstoppable - Something

Hmm... I like.

[ QUOTE ]
and while this is a really old issue, i still think it was a bad move to stick so closely to mmo conventions that basic comic truths were ignored, i.e. no mez protection for the mezzers.


[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. You try to hold Prof. X or Jean Grey or Cable and they'll smash you.

But again, it's the detoggling that's the problem. In other MMOs, you can get stunned, slept, etc. but it's not so bad because you haven't lost most of your protection in an instant. Mezzing is bad enough as it is, it doesn't need toggle dropping.

Get rid of toggle dropping and getting mezzed would be annoying but fine.

I really like the idea of high mez resistance instead of protection. I really don't like how mezzes are basically irrelevant to melees. But to do it I think you need to make one major change:

No detoggling from mezzes.

It doesn't make sense anyway. Sure if you take control of Collossus' mind you can make him detoggle, but if you trap him in Ice, there no reason he would detoggle. Perhaps you can let psi mezzes have a PvE chance of detoggling and provide specific protection to that.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Errr... maybe I'm being stupid, but surely the fact that an Arena is being built IN THE GAME is pretty big proof that its being worked on?

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If they build it, will we come?

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Most foul necromancy.

[ QUOTE ]
so, 100% XP bump for all levels to facilitate the playing of alts then?

cool, i'm glad we could all reach an amicable solution.

Next Issue's topic: what real synergy is there for shield/regen.

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I dont know if this has been said yet, but does the RP thing have anything to do with adding a heal or a rez to SR. Fire and Regen get self rezzes because it goes with the power. How would SR justify a rez. In reality your not really super at all like the natural description. Your basicially a cool ninja that can dodge bullets not some freak that uses darkness powers to come back to life.....

just a thought.

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It's more that Geko decided long ago that balance be darned, the sets WILL be different. The devs have hitched their horse to the idea of playing alts as a major form of content. And they want each of those alts to feel and play differently. That's why Elec and Eng are stuck with silly long activation times while Ice blasts things in seconds.

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SR would be fine if it had a decent heal.

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There's a reason why that proposal doesn't have one: its the thing that SR is least likely to get. I'm basing that on information I can't share, but suffice to say I believe I lack the ability to overcome the hurdle I know is there.

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You don't have to share it. I know they don't want to add it. They didn't want to scale AVs to EBs either, but they came around.

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That's the performance you're saying regen has to have, or you'll quit.

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No. I said if they took away QR and didn't give me a comparable endurance management tool, I'm gone. I didn't say anything about the rest of the set, but I will now:

I just want people to stop nerf-herding my main. Jeez. The set's fun and it's taken enough nerfs. Balance isn't more important than fun. Everyone looks and Regen and gets annoyed that their favorite set isn't as good. And while you might play Regens, in your heart you love that SR and it gets your first loyalty. I understand. I play defense sets too. But Regen is my heart in this game.

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Because you tihnk somehow I just lack the creativity it takes to "add a heal" to SR, this is SR balanced against the current performance of regen:

FF: 15.75% melee
FS: 15.75% ranged/AoE
dodge: 7.5% melee
agile: 7.5% ranged/AoE
PB: status, +15% health/+15% heal, enhanceable
quickness: +0.3 speed, +0.25 recovery, unenhanceable
lucky: replace with revive
evasion: toggle, intangible
elude: +45% defense, +run/jump/recovery
(this gets rid of the passive scaling resistances, by the way)

Its really easy to look at that and go "no freaking way." But that basically brings SR even with regen, on five critical metrics: average performance, build efficiency, slot efficiency, burst/average damage mitigation curve and power pool synergy.


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Fine, you have the creativity and the devs simply don't have the courage to see the brilliance of your idea. Then keep arguing for it, help them see you're right.

But leave Regen the hell out of it. I don't say that Elude is too strong because I want MoG to be better. I just say that Elude is strong and fun and in character with the set. If you simply said, "Regen is a fun set that does really well in [your five metrics]" why can't we have that too, cool. I fully support you having that.

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Finally, I'll tell you I think you're asking for too much in that proposal. Not that you're asking for something overpowered, but you're asking for something they are going to have to take on faith isn't overpowered. That's the problem. And again it's not necessary. SR would be fine if it had a decent heal. All your other metrics are nice, but really most people don't care about that. They just want to get back into the action quicker and have a way to deal with the unexpected damage spikes that accompany a defense set.

You think too much.

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By my calculations, the increased end recovery of QR is worth about one SO's worth of end reducers in each attack, while quickness is worth about one DO's worth of recharge in each attack (and the actual net benefit is a little lower than the speed value because of the activation time penalty). Theoretically speaking, a regen scrapper can always parlay higher regen into faster speed, especially post ED (and actually, pre-ED also, although few did).


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You keep proving my point. The problem there is with Quickness not QR. QR is worth a SO. Quickness should be worth a SO. Invincibility should work out to an SO.

(I always thought it would be nice if DA got a passive damage buff so that all the Scrappers could give up a power ten slot)

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I can't believe how much LESS fun I'm having now with my regen scrapper. I miss IH as a toggle so much I nearly cry everytime I think about how much fun my old regen scrapper was. Did nerfing IH do anything but make me quit for a year? No...and even now that I'm back, the IH nerf makes me want to quit again.


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I've never had IH as a toggle and I've had bundles of joy with my regen. So maybe the problem isn't regen, it's your nostalgia for the past. The biggest complainers of nerfs seem to be those that say "well back in I2 or I4 I used to...". Well we don't care what it WAS like, we care what it is now. All the history in the whole game that has been changed really has no more relevance now. Except for those that live in the past and still torment themselves.

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Now that's definitely true. Regen is fine the way it is, but it's still hard to let go of the past. The devs let things go too long. They wanted to make IH a click about a month past launch but Geko lost his nerve.

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Because MoG is broken and Revive is not useful enough for a tier 8 power. SR is broken. It won't be fixed until the devs add a self heal to it and stop making SRs take seven powers that all buff the same stat. Invul won't be fixed until they roll back some of its nerfs. I support doing that AND fixing Revive and MoG.

Does Regen need the buff? No. But MoG is stupid the way it is. A panic button power should provide more mitigation that the powers that precede it.

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You see MoG as a panic button? I knew it, you've defined internally what it should be and are bitter because it doesn't fit your specs instead of using it for what it is and knowing how and when to make it work for you. Yes Geko, I'm baaAAaack. Hiya! I'm your thought police. Don't ya love me?

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No. I don't see MoG as a panic button. That's what Statesman and Geko see the power as. They've said as much. You weren't here for the long trench wars over this power.

I used to see the power as a way to substitute healing for defense when I needed it. They they nerfed it. Oh well. BTW, you don't get under my skin, MoG does. I think you're amusing.