EvilGeko

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See, it doesn't matter. He doesn't like the power, and I know why. He doesn't want a last second "Oh sweet mumu I'm going to die horribly" power, he seems to want another alpha power.


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That's not what I'm saying at all. I'd be quite happy with a last second save me power. The only problem is that Regen has that already and it's called Dull Pain. MoG could be good at that role, but right now it's not.

What's probably happening is that the situations you use MoG in are times that I would select another more effective option. That's cool.

As for going after things bigger than myself. I've been doing that continuously since I1.

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This may have been covered already, but any idea when the Hero side version of the LR TF will be implemented instead of the Hami hunt? I8 maybe?

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This is a feature of I9

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You mean Heroes get that -AND- Hami? So they get two sources of Hami's then. That is gonna spark issues.

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Yeah, But CoV might be getting our own version of hami, or another way to earn hamis so it isn't 2-1 per day for the heros compared to villians.

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Or they could just add a Black Helicopter to the Hive and make the Hive a cooperative Hero/Villain zone.

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Who is going to pick a +3 SO over a SHO?



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I'd pick some +3 SOs if they are not base 10. I'd love a half dozen 53 lvl end mods.

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QFT. Even some power 10s I would pick because I need them like recharge and end reduction.

As for the choosing, I know I'll get in trouble for this, but I agree with not being able to choose SHOEs. Good job devs.

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Random query for rampant speculation and nothingness:

If there were no inspirations in the game (never implemented), and assuming power changes still occurred just as they have, would MoG be "more useful" in your eyes?


For me, no. I'm not a candy muncher for big fights. I horde them. I hardly ever need/use them except for the occasional ACC, Green, or Blue (any character/AT, even less so for my Regen). I don't stack Purps, reds, OJs for anything. Ever. And yet, I still come away just fine.....and still without using MoG.

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I have given that thought. I will admit, there might be more situations where MoG might be useful. But to be honest, I hardly ever use IH and DP so it's still possible that MoG might never get used.

MoG would still have all its problems IMO. Problems I have a hard time getting over. Since I don't have any problems with teams, I would probably prefer that to MoG. As for the people who say they use MoG in groups (except to annoy the empaths), I don't understand why they would ever need to unless they don't get any defenders or controllers.

Since I took MoG at 49 (Got tired of taking Hasten) I might take MoG at 49 sans inspirations. More likely I would whine more that IH should go back to being a toggle. Which it might have remained in an environment with no inspirations.

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See. This is what I would have done.

1. Clear extraneous wolves.
2. Leave mission; talk to Tina refill whatever inspirations I used up.
3. Approach Shadow Hunter. Pop three lucks.
4. Keep DA stacked.
5. Use Recon for when he gets through. Keep DP and IH in reserve in case random number generator is not happy with me that day. Otherwise refresh lucks every 60 seconds.
6. Fight should take 2-4 min. So make sure you have 12 lucks. Remaining inspirations should have been enrages.

I would not bother to use any of the accolades, especially Geas since it debuffs defense.

Like Nemo said, preparation is the key here. When I say that MoG is unnecessary that means that sometimes you have to take a minute or so to prepare and plan. There is no reason to go into an EB fight in an open air mission without inspirations.

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I have no fundamental disagreement with your statement. But my question is, if MoG is an "unnecessary" power given this, name a necessary power (for a given set).

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None, since I did the same thing for my Blaster.

However, that said. MoG is a gamble. IH and DP and Recon are sure things. They either make my current situation better, or they leave it neutral. MoG removes options. Once you hit MoG, well, that's what you're depending on for 180 seconds. It removes nearly every option I have. My BS/Regen has: Parry, Fast Healing, Recon, DP, Integration, IH & inspirations for mitigation tools. Well actually I have MoG too, but that's just so I can remember why I never use it.

I hit MoG, those other 7 powers and up to 20 inspirations become almost useless. But they don't do that to each other. I hit recon and DP is still able to help. I hit IH and my stack heals help. All three defensive inspirations help. Unless I hit MoG.

I know what you're saying about the direct heal at the beginning of MoG having a use, but in my experience, you're better off just backing off for a second or two and letting Recon regenerate. And usually that's not even necessary.

Your character looks AWESOME Kaoru! How close are you able to get it to that in game?

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Heres the scene:

Solo level 46 Kat/Regen Scrapper playing on heroic. You have all but the Taunt out of the primary. All but revive out of Regen. No travel power, just the entire Fitness Pool 3 sloted. Theres also a 3-slotted Hover, Vanguard, Eye of the Magus, and Geas of the Kind ones. In the insper tray you have 3 Rez inspers and one res, all teir one.

In the timed Shadowhunter mission, the Ex-wolf farming one.

Most of the wolves have been cleared out before the fight, there are a few running about. Nothing to worry about, they're on the other side of the map.

You're at roughly 15-20%HP from the masive strike you were just delt by Shadowhunter. Who is a +1 EB. You've already spent Recon,DP, and IH is still running. You used Vanguard and Geas at the start of the fight. They ran out awhile ago.

You've managed to double stack Divine Avalanche(which has one -2 Def enh in it in addion to a recharge and an Acc) due to your MASSIVE spaming of the attack.

Shadowhunter however was at ~30% HP before useing Earth's Embrace, he's now at nearly full. and it now starting the animation for hurl. Something you know does more then half your HP

You havein't used MoG or the Eye yet.

What do you do?

You asked for it

I hit the Orange insp, Eye and MoG. Eye only lasted about 1/4 of the time it took to take him out.

Just wondering if there was something else I could have done? And for the record, this kind of thing happens to me alot. Hence MoG.




Man that was a fun fight...

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'K

See. This is what I would have done.

1. Clear extraneous wolves.
2. Leave mission; talk to Tina refill whatever inspirations I used up.
3. Approach Shadow Hunter. Pop three lucks.
4. Keep DA stacked.
5. Use Recon for when he gets through. Keep DP and IH in reserve in case random number generator is not happy with me that day. Otherwise refresh lucks every 60 seconds.
6. Fight should take 2-4 min. So make sure you have 12 lucks. Remaining inspirations should have been enrages.

I would not bother to use any of the accolades, especially Geas since it debuffs defense.

Like Nemo said, preparation is the key here. When I say that MoG is unnecessary that means that sometimes you have to take a minute or so to prepare and plan. There is no reason to go into an EB fight in an open air mission without inspirations.

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The lizard got modsmacked for professing his true passion :P

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OK, moderator4 how about this.

I am a biased, opinionated meanie.


Doesn't have the same impact...

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Don't even get me started on the defense debuff resistance.


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If it's not working, that's another problem. It SHOULD be working and it SHOULD be a benefit over lucks.

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For an SR scrapper to get I7 Elude's defense only requires 2 lucks per minute, not four. With four, you can drop toggles, and those CaBs are much less necessary. If you're going to count CaBs, then you should in fact count the number of break frees required to equal MoG's additional mez protection during its running time (about 2-3 per minute), not dismiss them out of hand.


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The difference between the two, and what you keep ignoring is that Elude does not make you weaker in ANY way. MoG does. That makes it's benefits inherently less valuable than Eludes. You pay with Elude with an endurance crash three minutes from activation. MoG pays in second 2 through 195 of the powers effects. That's why I poo poo the mez protection. Normally, I would count that as a significant benefit, but at the times where incredible mez protection (mostly PvP) would be a benefit, MoG blows.

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And the same disingenous biases led me to calculate in a more precise way just how much MoG is underpowered. So I guess its only disingenously biased when I disagree about *how* MoG is underpowered, not when I state *the degree* to which Mog is underpowered.


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No, you're always disingenuous. You use arguments that if someone used them regarding SR, you would jump down their throat. For example, anytime someone says that SR is fine because they have Elude, here you come with your arguments for why that isn't fair. Well, this is the opposite. MoG isn't fair just because the rest of Regen is strong, but that doesn't stop you from arguing it.

You saying that MoG last too long didn't require math, it required using the power. Many people said the same thing long before you came along. No offense, but your word doesn't have any inherent authority. You're a generally good egg, a Scrapper advocate, I can't have any hate for a fellow killer. But your stated goal has been to ensure than Regen doesn't get improved in any way and SR does.

Taking 60 seconds off MoG would make the power better, but it wouldn't be a buff. It would just make it less annoying.

Now, while I think you don't come into this discussion as an honest broker, that doesn't mean I don't think you're basically right. MoG would be too powerful if just straight buffed. I don't even want that. I don't think Fanboy's idea of a Revive uber power is out of line. I don't think my heal plus damage click is out of line. I think both are nerfs of sorts, since some people take the MoG gamble and do alright.


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I don't actually consider it an especially meaningful thing to be able to come up with a single example of where MoG is useful, so I don't usually mention it, but it does satisfy your criteria of a case where MoG was inherently useful: against a high order defense debuffing, regeneration debuffing, opponent. Under those circumstances, the best protection is ultrahigh defense, sufficiently high to work in the face of severe debuffing.


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Who's that? Positron? Well, I've fought Anti-Matter with Sturdies and it worked fine. And I could heal. As for a Stalker, well they have other problems.

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As an aside, MoG's defense (71.25% according to Prima) implies a base scale of 9.5, or 95% defense at AT modifier 0.100 (which scrappers do not have, but at one time did). MoG's defense number appears to be a fossil of a time when someone probably really didn't understand how their own game engine worked, and thought 95% defense is what you needed to guarantee a 5% floored attacker. Which strongly implies that the power has never been properly balanced for effect: its just been tweaked here and there, but may have serious design flaws frozen into it just because the original designer of the power made significant mechanical errors.

The side-effect of being unable to be resistance buffed is probably just one of those side effects that is probably unintended, and makes the side effects of the power much more severe than they are supposed to be. Possibly a good case for suggesting that MoG was originally supposed to turn off *enhanced* healing, but not actual *base* healing, but that was too complicated to do initially, and the thought was that that was numerically unimportant. *IF* its a design error, its a much more important one than they probably assumed.

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That's probably all true. I just don't think Geko cares that much honestly. So long as somebody's taking the power and using it, he's probably happy. But you've shown how problematic defense is in this game for years now.

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Interestingly enough, +rech makes more sense for Regen than defense every will.

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Yep, increased health makes more sense for regen, increased endurance recovery makes more sense for regen, and now increased speed makes more sense for regen than any other set. It won't be long before increased damage makes more sense for regen, increased accuracy makes more sense for regen, and increased perception makes more sense for regen. I'm sure there's an issue of Wolverine that backs that up.

All passives, of course, because attention deficit disorder also makes more sense for regen. I'm sure there's an issue of Wolverine that backs that up also.

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Umm.. take your pill.

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now increased speed makes more sense for regen than any other set.

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I DID NOT SAY THAT!!

I said +recharge makes more sense for Regen than defense. I did not say it makes more sense for Regen than it does for SR. You can read, you're too smart for that BS, Arcana. I'm not going to allow you to strawman me.

A person who heals fast also recovers from the strain of using their abilities faster. That's just frikken common sense. That why I said +recharge makes more sense for Regen than being able to dodge.

I did not say that it doesn't make sense for SR and I wouldn't because it does.

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Or, prove me wrong: find a situation where an SR scrapper would use Elude, where I could not avoid using Elude by preparing in advance with inspirations. Or find a situation where you would use unstoppable, that I couldn't eliminate the need for it with suitable inspirations.

In fact, the only scrapper tier 9 you can't actually replicate with inspirations in full is Soul Transfer.

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Sure, no problem. Beside the defense, Elude gives's 34.6% resistance to defense debuffing, a 50% run speed increase, some additional Jump and 100% endurance recovery. So to get Elude you need:

12 Lucks; 12 CaBs

That gives you the defense and the endurance. Oh darnit. There's a defense debuffer. Oh wait: YOU HAVE ELUDE!! With Elude and your toggles and passives, you have a 97% resistance to defense debuffing. Hmm... Lucks don't do that. I know, Positron beat the crap out of my EM/FA the first time using lucks.

Oh who's that over there. Darn. Speed debuffer. My regen's moving like they are on acid. Oh, your Elude guys gets a clicky +speed +jump. WoW. Where's my inspiration for that.

Oh and one other thing. You notice how I have 12 Lucks and 12 CaBs up there. Guess what? You can only hold 20 inspirations!!!111lol11!!

As for Unstoppable you need more Break Frees than you can carry to match its mez protection. It's true for MoG as well, but Unstoppable doesn't debuff you to damage types you're normally strong against.

Your biases are showing, Arcana.

Actually a +dmg 25% heal at 28 would be pretty good with Instant Healing becoming the true 38 power at the end. Only problem is that is a net nerf to the set since people get IH now at 28. So I would keep MoG at 38.

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This is an opinion based on trial and error, and is no way grounded in datamining or spreadsheets of numbers, so keep your stakes and pitchforks back....


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And common sense. If anyone pulls out any pitchforks after your post, they'll deal with me.

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However, from reading up and just personal experience, MoG's biggest problem often ends up being the level it's available (hear me out on this). At 38, much to SR's unfortunateness as well, Autohits, Psis and Toxics really start to pop up and be plentiful and powerful around this time (my first time using MoG was a Nemesis pack... bad move...), so what should amount to our last ditch move to clear a span ends up being a quick and painful (and often embarassing) faceplant. At least Elude gets the movement bonus...



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Absolutely correct. As the SRs are want to whine, defense gets mauled in the high levels. So when should we give Regen a defense power: THE HIGH LEVELS

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A backup of a decent last ditch power (IH) is all MoG is ever going to amount to be, unless the other sets get buffed so far out the yin-yang that Regens have a right to demand a better tier-9 (read, never happening). Now, if they wanted to have some fun with Regen and diversify it a little from the other Scrapper secondaries, they could get rid of MoG all together, put a throw-away power in the level-28 slot, and put toggle IH (at a reduced heal rate and slightly reduced end cost) in the 38 slot. Tanks and Brutes have a defense-set with a toggle tier-9 (Stone Armor), why not use this as an opportunity to give Stalkers and Scrappers one as well?


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I too think they should remove MoG altogether in its current state. However, I think they should give it a non-defensive functionality. Other than QR, Regen doesn't have anything that aids with offense.

I would do a short term +dmg, +recharge boost with MoG's full heal for MoG. Perhaps about 30 seconds with a 180 second recharge. It would be thematic, and not overpowered. Arcana wants to keep +rech, but Regen is self-empathy so we got a claim to it! Interestingly enough, +rech makes more sense for Regen than defense every will.

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Agreeing with me?

It just discredits you. I advise against doing so.

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Everthing that comes out of my mouth is per se discredited so

- discredit * -discredit = +credit

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I've played this set a long time and I NEVER need MoG. Ever. I have NO use for MoG. None.

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I'm a nobody, but I say the same thing in every MoG thread.

I think this is something that a lot of people just "don't get". I certainly can't explain it any better, and I certainly don't blame those that just can't understand this sentiment. Until this "understanding" is reached (or MoG just goes the [censored] away), debates like this will continue as they have for however long it's been going on now.

People who "like" MoG? All the power to you. People who put MoG "to use"? All the power to you.

I can guarantee that I'll come out better than the MoGer every time in the exact same situation though. All I have for proof is my conviction and word to go on....just like those that say MoG is the holy divine power of their awesomeness. *shrug*

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I really don't understand why this is difficult to understand. I have MoG, took it at 49 because I didn't want anything else. I really, really get that some people find it to be a fun power.

I am not making ANY claims on the power being fun. Fun is a 100% subjective term. What I am saying is that I have found MoG to be too dangerous a gamble to be effective in every instance where one would consider using MoG. I have been told that Geko will not approve any changes to the power at this time, so I made this post so we can have one permanent place to fight about MoG and so I could make my arguments once.

I agree with Wokka that he can find a use for the power. Good luck to him.

I agree with Arcanaville that an outright buff of the power would be unbalancing. I think she has the ulterior motive of insuring that Regen doesn't further outstrip SR. Fair enough, I guess I would feel the same in her shoes.

I agree with Alisson that people who don't care about the numbers can have fun with the power.

But I cannot understand how you people can disagree with this point: A prepared and skilled Regen Scrapper ALWAYS has a better option than MoG. Doesn't mean you won't use MoG anyway, just that there is probably a better option out there you've chosen to not use.

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The artificial distinction being made here is between allowing tough to be judged stacked on top of regeneration, to heighten its net overall benefit, but not judging MoG's strengths and weaknesses relative to the rest of the set. It has strengths the rest of the set lacks: that is what is being counterbalanced against the weaknesses it has (that the rest of the set also lacks).



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Nonsense. We don't judge MoG relative to the rest of the set, because it overpowers or turns the rest of the set off. It has no strenghts. None.

I do not accept that a power with so many problems as useful to me. MoG's useful life is so minimal that I never have a need of it when lucks are more available.

And honestly, Arcana, I believe you are being disingenuous in this discussion. Elude is ALWAYS better than lucks. Unstoppable is ALWAYS better than Sturdies. Both give other effects that are hard or even impossible to replicate with Inspirations.

Lucks put you in a BETTER defensive state than MoG. So much so that you're better off using them. Sturdies can put you in a better resistance state than Tough....for awhile. But Tough does it all the time for what is to a Regen a minimal endurance cost.

Look, it's really as simple as we're making it out to be. I've played this set a long time and I NEVER need MoG. Ever. I have NO use for MoG. None. You can keep up with the theories, but I put the same challenge to you. Give me a situation, a real game situation where I would use MoG. I'll plan around it. Yes, I'll use inspirations often time, but who cares because that's part of our powers as well.

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I know that you aren't really meaning it to come across this way, but taking the opportunity--if your persecuters are not members of the establishment, then your rights are not being violated per se. No one has the right to express themselves in a public forum and not have the forum experience the reactions, good or bad, of others with access to that forum.


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Wokka personalizes it to me. Disagree all you want. Arcana does. I love the argument.

But I've had Wokka call me out in post I wasn't even looking at. Others have had to tell me about them. I'm not the only one who doesn't like MoG. Now I'll admit my responses to him have not been the kindest either, but I've never initiated a personal battle.

When someone asks about MoG I just tell them what I think and say try before you buy and then either Wokka or Alisson come in to tell me I don't know how to play. That's what I object to.

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Then the solution is simple: Track them down and KILL THEM BOTH! Don't look at Personal Attacks as anything more than an opportunity to classify someone in the dichotomy between people with whom you can carry on a discussion and people you can't. That's what I do. In fact, if I can just personally attack a few more people this week...oh, wait...

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They keep running yo!

But seriously, you're right. Alisson can be reasonable, but I'm done talking to Wokka.

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Actually I think the point is no has RESISTANCE to Hami damage. But there is DEFENSE against it. There is a big difference in those two statements in the City of * world.

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The term used was Protection. Any set with healing has protection from hami. Any power with base defense (the old MoG might have been the only power with it) protects against Hami.

Using MoG puts you at a worse position against Hami than you were before using MoG. That was all I was saying and it's really not subject to dispute.

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So I really do want to know, what makes MoG a good power. What makes it's benefits outweight it's penalties. Can it's benefits truely be used more often than it's penalties.

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Its therefore specifically useful in the areas defense is more useful than regeneration in general: usually heavy (non-defense) debuffing environments. What makes it a good power? It offers the *choice* of switching to a high defense stance, which defers most secondary effects (like debuffs) when debuffing is more dangerous than pure damage. What is heavily discounted by most people who think MoG is totally worthless is the fact that that choice is inherently valuable. Its not always the case that MoG is the *better* choice: in fact, it usually is not. But no other scrapper set actually gets a chance to have its full strength by level 28, and then on top of that a significantly strong 38 power that has *none* of the intrinsic sets' weaknessess. Even if its only useful one time in a hundred, that is one time in a hundred no other scrapper (or melee set, really) gets. In any other protection set, this would be universally seen as a benefit: its often not in the regen set because the rest of the set is so powerful already.


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This would all be true IF we didn't have to make a choice between MoG and some other power. I've always disagreed with looking at a set and saying "X" power is fine because "Y" power is in the same set. That assumes a known falsehood, that people will select every power in a set.

There is a VERY large opportunity cost in taking MoG. It's a power its defenders acknowledge they don't use often. Thus if the choice is between MoG and a power which will be used much more often, I would go with the power that will be used.

One more thing about that. I think every power has to stand on its own merits because the way our character advancement system works, it DOES need to stand on its own. There is a player asking whether he or she should get Tough or MoG on the Scrapper forums. Even a lot of MoG defenders say get Tough. A power that's always there for you is a better choice than a power you'll hardly use.

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I know that you aren't really meaning it to come across this way, but taking the opportunity--if your persecuters are not members of the establishment, then your rights are not being violated per se. No one has the right to express themselves in a public forum and not have the forum experience the reactions, good or bad, of others with access to that forum.


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Wokka personalizes it to me. Disagree all you want. Arcana does. I love the argument.

But I've had Wokka call me out in post I wasn't even looking at. Others have had to tell me about them. I'm not the only one who doesn't like MoG. Now I'll admit my responses to him have not been the kindest either, but I've never initiated a personal battle.

When someone asks about MoG I just tell them what I think and say try before you buy and then either Wokka or Alisson come in to tell me I don't know how to play. That's what I object to.

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because you don't know how well I use MoG

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Please enlighten me then. I've told you many times. I'm willing to be proven wrong. Stop with the flames and just do it.

EDIT: And Wokka, if at the end of this, it boils down to: "I just like MoG EG and I make it work for me!" Cool. But then leave me alone. I have every bit as much right to despise MoG as you do to like it. I've always acknowledged that people have a right to like the power. Don't say I don't know how to play because I do. Don't say that I have found no uses for MoG because I have. I've just found better ways to deal with those situations.

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You know that whatever you say I can give you a way to do it better.

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Mostly, by claiming regen scrappers can always keep enough lucks around to substitute for MoG. But the level of lucks required to do that, if SR scrappers and Invuln scrappers kept them also, would largely eliminate the usefulness of Elude and Unstoppable as well.

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No, not at all. There are multiple ways to deal with problems other than pill popping. Hell, most times a Regen just needs to back off for a couple of seconds and kite with their ranged attack (of course only available after 44 except for Spines/Claws). Situational awareness beats crappy uber buttons all the time. So does the controls in the primaries/epics. Or Aid Self. Or the fear clicks. So many things besides MoG you can use. Not just inspirations.

As I keep saying, I rarely use inspirations and I NEVER use MoG although I have both in my tray. Really in groups fighting +4s I just play a little more tactically. The rare times I do die with my 50 Regen its because of an alpha strike.

Let me say one thing and make it clear:

I AM NOT SAYING THAT MOG IS NOT "FUN"!

Not at all. Not a bit. Never. MoG can be very fun. So can gambling. But a gamble is a gamble and MoG is much more of a gamble than just relying on your regen powers and perhaps a luck once in awhile.

If you're enjoying MoG, PLEASE CONTINUE. If you're thinking about MoG as a power pick just understand that it's not Elude or Unstoppable. It's MoG. A power that's a big risk to use. If you understand that risk fully, you'll be in better shape to use it to the minimal effect it gives.

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No one really gets psi protection.

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I guess no one includes: Stone Armor, SR, Dark Armor, Dark Miasma, Empathy, Regen (out of MoG), Force Field

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And lol NO ONE can resist Hami damage so seeing it on your list makes me believe you are really reaching for negative things about MoG.

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Regens can protect against Hami. Not as well as in the old days, but healing is protection. MoG doesn't allow that.

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And all because you haven't learned how to deal with it to your advantage.

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Because there is none. You say I can't find a use for MoG, but you can't either. You know that whatever you say I can give you a way to do it better. Your ego is hurt because in your heart you fear that we are right and you use MoG as a crutch. And a poor one at that.

You keep using your crutch, and I'll keep responding to opinions with facts.

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Heh, thanks but that's not a very good answer. I want to know what I should select now, not in some future year in 2008 when they finally look at Mog.

Guess I'll take Phase shift.

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Neither is the best answer. Phase Shift takes to long to activate to use as a panic button. Inspirations are better for getting you out of trouble.