EvilGeko

Castle, what are the current unique enhancers if you don't mind us asking?

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Ice, well, I'll give you Ice, because really Ice isn't weak at anything. High single target damage, decent AoE, good control, strong mez. Its only missing element for a blaster set is that it has no long range snipe, which given how the devs designed snipes and how they engineered the game environment, is not a significant loss given all of its other advantages.

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I don't see the 'decent AoE'. Ice Storm is more of a control. Frost Breath is slow and narrow. Blizzard is very good.

I think Ice's downsides is that as you said it lacks a snipe, which I personally do not believe is a big deal. It lacks a targetable AoE. It lacks a decent width cone. In exchance it's the best single target killer in the AT.

It's why I picked it when it was 'gimp'.

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My hands hurt from beating that dead horse, MoG. I'm going to rest here for awhile with my Regen brothers and sisters and dream about Toggle IH.

Hmmmm! Toggle IH is like Thin Mints Girl Scouts cookies, I will always want them no matter how long its been since I had one last.?

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I'm just waiting for someone to figure out how to make IH perma (effectively Toggle IH). I suspect that someone will try to make it happen or will make it happen.

If there is a way to break the system, the clever and ingenious minds of the Scrapper forum will figure it out.

All because we scrappers (especially us green glowing types) are smart AND good looking.

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Perma-IH...umm. No.

Perma 800%+ regen rate... No problem. (Well, it's not quite that easy, but I think it's possible.)

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Perma 800%, I haven't figured out yet. Boosting reconstruction into the stratosphere, that one is possible (all that +Heal and +Recharge).

I think I can get to about 650% total regen, though, and perma-DP. Also, the equivalent of about 700% regen with reconstruction's heals. That's like 1700% regen without any DP or recon, which just grazes the lower edge of the non-DP non-recon pre-I5 regens.

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Well finding out there are unique (as in you can only have one) IOs likely breaks my 800% build and my much easier to attain 650% build. On the bright side, I'm looking at a stupid amount of toxic resists which makes sense for a regen.

What's really screwy to me is that there is so little SM, LE resists either as set bonuses or as AEEs (added effect enhancers).

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If there is a way to break the system, the clever and ingenious minds of the Scrapper forum will figure it out.

All because we scrappers (especially us green glowing types) are smart AND good looking.

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You know, I was just thinking about that... how / why the heck are scrappers - followers of the 6 second rule, inventors (and best implementors) of scrapper-lock, the epitome of whirling dervishes of mass descruction - some of (If not the most) methotical and scientific about game mechanics and build creation.

Ladies and gentlemen, that does not make sense!

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I was thinking about that today. The Scrapper forum is ALWAYS the best place for information on how to create broken builds. There's more doom-free information on Inventions here than on the darn Inventions forum.

It's not because Scrappers are the strongest AT. That honor belongs to Controllers.

I think it's because Scrappers don't have any of the nonsense drama the other ATs have. No "anti-healer" vendettas, no "we have a crappy inherent" stuff. Scrappers own and so we spend our time on trying to make them OWN HARDER!

Controllers do too I guess, but without Pilcrow their heart doesn't seem to be in it.

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My hands hurt from beating that dead horse, MoG. I'm going to rest here for awhile with my Regen brothers and sisters and dream about Toggle IH.

Hmmmm! Toggle IH is like Thin Mints Girl Scouts cookies, I will always want them no matter how long its been since I had one last.?

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I'm just waiting for someone to figure out how to make IH perma (effectively Toggle IH). I suspect that someone will try to make it happen or will make it happen.

If there is a way to break the system, the clever and ingenious minds of the Scrapper forum will figure it out.

All because we scrappers (especially us green glowing types) are smart AND good looking.

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Perma-IH...umm. No.

Perma 800%+ regen rate... No problem. (Well, it's not quite that easy, but I think it's possible.)

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1. Make sure every power set has a specific defensive weakness, such that possession of the offensive ability to exploit that weakness offers a significant, material advantage to the possessor, verses that power set.

2. Make sure every power set has a specific defensive strength, such that anything that offensively focuses on that strength will be at a material disadvantage verses that set.

3. Make sure its non-trivial to buy your way out of your weakness.

4. Make sure that for every power set, one of two things is true:

4a. The set contains the offensive means to exploit its own weakness

or

4b. The set offensively focuses on its own strength

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But that does increase homogeniety. If everyone adheres to the formula then everyone is more similar.

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What formula are you talking about? The quote above describes a design methodology for power sets, not builds. Saying that enforces homogeneity is like saying that the current system enforces homogeneity because everyone is currently forced to be one of twelve archetypes.

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Geko and Arcana are sitting in a tree
a r g u i n g

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Seriously. I know she loves the sight my posts, but I keep telling her, I'm married.

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1. Make sure every power set has a specific defensive weakness, such that possession of the offensive ability to exploit that weakness offers a significant, material advantage to the possessor, verses that power set.

2. Make sure every power set has a specific defensive strength, such that anything that offensively focuses on that strength will be at a material disadvantage verses that set.

3. Make sure its non-trivial to buy your way out of your weakness.

4. Make sure that for every power set, one of two things is true:

4a. The set contains the offensive means to exploit its own weakness

or

4b. The set offensively focuses on its own strength

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But that does increase homogeniety. If everyone adheres to the formula then everyone is more similar.

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What formula are you talking about? The quote above describes a design methodology for power sets, not builds. Saying that enforces homogeneity is like saying that the current system enforces homogeneity because everyone is currently forced to be one of twelve archetypes.

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No, it's not. And if your design methodology does what it suggests then homogeniety will be increased because similarity will be increased. That's what the word means.

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I said:I think Aracana should have an SR lounge for somewhere to post all her crazy ideas that the devs will never look at.

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EG said:I agree. If you're going to be ignored and shunned at least you should be comfortable.

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hahaha, this is my favorite bit of the whole thread. They actually went ahead and did this one. It's called the Discussion of Issue 9 Inventions Feature forum.

ah hahahhahahaha

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Poor Arcana. Invul is on the cusp of reclaiming its spot on top of the Scrapper secondaries and little SR still will be lonely.

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Because always on 45% defense isn't a good thing...?

(I'm torn on Invuln getting some of its old glory back... I don't think I could deal with them nerfing Quantum. )

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It is, but it's really easier to just agree with Arcana about SR being screwed. Like I said a week or so ago, even if you're right, she won't admit it.

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The system you propose appears sound, but it would also entail a complete rebuild of CoH, essentially CoH Mark II. Do you consider the current system hopeless?

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Offered only as direct counterexample to the belief that a balanced PvP system is impossible unless homogenous. Actually, were I to design one myself, it would be diversity itself that would assure PvP balance, and that's just one element of how that might work.



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I didn't say you had to make everyone homogeneous, I said you have to increase the homogeniety of the play experience. Those are not the same concept.

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So to fix this would require that we increase the homogeniety in the play experience.

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As I said, the only way to balance PvP is to enforce some level of sameness. Hell that's all balance is really. Enforcing some roughly equivalent level of damage or mitigation. You just like arguing against things I say.

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1. Make sure every power set has a specific defensive weakness, such that possession of the offensive ability to exploit that weakness offers a significant, material advantage to the possessor, verses that power set.

2. Make sure every power set has a specific defensive strength, such that anything that offensively focuses on that strength will be at a material disadvantage verses that set.

3. Make sure its non-trivial to buy your way out of your weakness.

4. Make sure that for every power set, one of two things is true:

4a. The set contains the offensive means to exploit its own weakness

or

4b. The set offensively focuses on its own strength

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But that does increase homogeniety. If everyone adheres to the formula then everyone is more similar.

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I said:I think Aracana should have an SR lounge for somewhere to post all her crazy ideas that the devs will never look at.

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EG said:I agree. If you're going to be ignored and shunned at least you should be comfortable.

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hahaha, this is my favorite bit of the whole thread. They actually went ahead and did this one. It's called the Discussion of Issue 9 Inventions Feature forum.

ah hahahhahahaha

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Poor Arcana. Invul is on the cusp of reclaiming its spot on top of the Scrapper secondaries and little SR still will be lonely.

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Now think about what I just said. IF the DEVs had left the original game system in place, Controllers would have held Tanks and Scrappers 1st or 2nd hit.

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Umm... they nerfed Scrapper and Tanker mez protection, they didn't nerf the mez magnitudes of Controllers.

For example Integration used to be, at level 16, a MAG 15 protection to the big four mezzes. Controllers would have had to stack 5 mezzes or 4 critical mezzes to defeat that while at the same time dealing with the resistance that made those holds wear off quicker.

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After all is said and done, a roll back to the Issue 3 power effects would make PvP more fun and challenging than ever. People could PvP with any build because they would find something they could add to a team, no one would be UBER.


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I did the calculations and posted them to the Arena boards the first day those forums came into existence: Regen was not killable by ANY character in Issue 3. Think about that for a second. NO AT, including other Scrappers, could kill a Regen with Issue 3 numbers. It just wasn't possible.

At Issue 3 numbers, the meleers would run over the squishies.

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"The devs have said to me directly, that they want to maintain a clear distinction between builds... I still can't see what [they] can do to change things without removing those distinctions." -- EvilGeko

This sounds interesting, EG, but you're speaking in generalities. Can you offer some specific examples?

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Specific examples I've seen in PMs:

1. SR will never get a heal...ever. Arcana's gotten this too.

2. We know MoG sucks, but we don't want everyone to be the same.

3. Geko said on the forums long ago that Blaster animations would not be balanced because then they might as well just make everything the same with different colors.

There are other examples if I looked through my PMs, but the hostility of these devs towards things that they perceive as removing distinctions has been scary. That said I'm hopeful because of recent efforts to normalize certain classes of powers (Burn, Blaster Superior damage blasts, etc.)

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EvilGeko, love your posts! I don't usually associate you with defeatism though. Presuming it -can- be done, I'm asking if the devs have the will.


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It's not so much defeatism as a serious inability to see how to fix the problem within the constraints the devs have set.

The devs have said to me directly, that they want to maintain a clear distinction between builds. That means that while you can get some kind of rough, servicable balance in PvE, it's not really possible in PvP.

I play a lot of builds and I'll at least try all of them in PvP (being that I suck at PvP and lose with good builds, I have no ego to break. ). But I still can't see what we can do to change things without removing those distinctions the devs think are necessary.

Most balance posts in the PvP forum tend to point to the favored sets and say either: 1) Make all sets like them; or 2) Nerf them so they are like everyone else.

The problem with that is that many of these sets were specifically created with the advantages they have because they aren't good at other things. So to fix this would require that we increase the homogeniety in the play experience. This is something that the developers really don't want to do.

IMO, there's no real problem if every AT is needed, so long as they're all needed. Of course, that's impossible. But heroes in general are strong enough (yes even Blasters) to earn their keep on a team even if they aren't the most useful.

Eight Ill/Rads is the optimal team for just about anything. But that doesn't mean that there won't be a place for others.

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So EG is basically running around with his own, personal black cloud floating over his head. That sucks. On a lighter note, at least Snaptooth is obeying the rules...

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No that's you DA blokes.

I just hit IH and DP and go to town.

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If you're hit by *really hard* you had better be at full health.


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That explains the 13 seconds. Couple of bad die rolls with no healing and no net resistance.

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However, dead in fifteen seconds? EG is definitely not the one to send out for the coin toss. With MoG and DP, I'd expect the average Regen to last about 45-60 seconds into the fight if you saved MoG specifically for the EB, and didn't fritter its health away on the minions and LTs that you fight before the last spawn.


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Saved MoG until the EB was at 75% of its health. *Shrug*

In any event it took me about three minutes to take down the Invincible spawn so as you note, MoG was suicide anyway.

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I suspect we'll get -some- kind of rough map to follow for this stuff, though it may not be Dev-provided or available during the first week.

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I actually wanted to go with Drops II: Drops Harder

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*sniff sniff*

Hmm. A faint odor of a positronic suit, there. Must be my imagination.

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No way, I would have gone with Drops II: Attack of the Drops.

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If you'd said Drops II: Secret of the Drops I would've given you so many bonus points.

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Drops II: The Drop Strikes Back. Much better Star Wars movie to reference IMHO.

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But bad nerd form. You can't use "The Drop Strikes Back" until we get to the Drop V post.

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Unless the prequel never happened. They never happened! I know of no prequels! There are only 3 Star Wars, A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, and Laughter of the Ewokes... er, Return of the Jedi. >.> Why do I ignore the prequels? 1) Podraces, 2) Force = Space Measles?, and 3) 'Anakin, I have the High Ground'.

/end thread derailment

=. .=

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Look the prophet Lucas might have gotten a bit batty in his old age, but we have to count the prequels!

You should like an infidel.

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I suspect we'll get -some- kind of rough map to follow for this stuff, though it may not be Dev-provided or available during the first week.

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I actually wanted to go with Drops II: Drops Harder

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*sniff sniff*

Hmm. A faint odor of a positronic suit, there. Must be my imagination.

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No way, I would have gone with Drops II: Attack of the Drops.

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If you'd said Drops II: Secret of the Drops I would've given you so many bonus points.

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Drops II: The Drop Strikes Back. Much better Star Wars movie to reference IMHO.

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But bad nerd form. You can't use "The Drop Strikes Back" until we get to the Drop V post.

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I actually wanted to go with Drops II: Drops Harder

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*sniff sniff*

Hmm. A faint odor of a positronic suit, there. Must be my imagination.

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No way, I would have gone with Drops II: Attack of the Drops.

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LIES!!

Positron is teh mad doctor!

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For those with the fire epic, or other knockdown patches, Snappy is just as ridiculously vulnerable to knockback as he was new years. Wait till he gets near a building, then drop the patch in such a way to shove him into the corner of a building. Perma-repelled Snappy. I did this on one of the runs to test it: its stupidly easy. Also, the patch keeps repelling his friends away.


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Seconded. My Em/Fire Brute had him on his butt with just AS most of the fight.

My BS/Regen after she stopped wasting time with MoG, was easily able to juggle the bastid.

Well, I suppose it's possible the red caps are a lot stronger than I think they are. *Shrug*

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I'd still rather have Pools A, C, and D and make Pool B (Story Arcs) contain a nice subset of some of what can be obtained in both Pools C and D. That way the reusable content (A C and D) contains everything one could possibly want, while Story Arcs get you valuable things via soloing that you could otherwise only get via teaming (C and D).

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I like that idea.

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Very, very nice.

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I could dig that too.

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Let us go back and redo the arcs!!

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You'd think it'd be pretty simple to do too. Autoexmp the mission owner to the mission level, add a mission flashback option to all contacts that lets you continuously cycle through a contact's missions and voila. Flashback.

They should probably not give you temp power rewards because then you could like do the blackwand/wedding band/whatever missions over and over and never run out, but I think all other rewards would be pretty kosher.

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Simple for the enduser. Not simple for the engineers.

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Engineers always say stuff is too hard. I've read the Dilbert Principle. Beat them until they deliver Flashback!!