EvilGeko

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To be clear I want one of three things:

1) Remove them outright; grandfathering in those who already have them.

This will give people a good lesson about badges. Trying to get every single badge is folly. And, in my opinion, it trivializes the badges. Badges both in game and RL are supposed to represent achievement, not doing repetitive boring things. The analogy Arcana made to loot is shown to be even more specious. I don't deny people do boring things for loot, but they do them because they want their character to be stronger. That's not what badges are supposed to represent.

OR 2) Do nothing.

If the badge is supposed to be an "epic" achievement, leave it so. Those who cheat by using Arena bugs fulfill nothing but their obsessive tendencies. Basically if in 3-4 years an Empath who really loves their character and played it hard earned Empath as intended, then cool. They will have earned it and that one badge will be worth more in my estimation that the hundreds of badges the badge hounds have earned.

OR 3) Nerf the badge into meaningless.

Here we lower the badge requirements down to one point of healing (for Empath of course) above the next badge. We do just like the costume piece loot, make them trivial. If people want their little graphic so bad, then fine, give it to them, but let's drop the pretense that it's anything more than making a number bigger.

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You consistantly ignore option #4:
Change the badges to something meaningful, but possible to achieve.
An across the board healing badge cut to 1/10th their present values, and then change empath to 25 million points healed. This would cause empaths to take about a year to get the badge and those with aid other to get it in less than a decade. Actually if they could heal 20,000 hitpoints/day, that would be around 4 years.

If there is a downside, it means that "healers" can get the badge under a year. So what? It still takes a lot of effort to get the badges. On the other hand, people can get the badges through play. It will still be an achievement to get the badges.

Same could be done with the Damage and Inf badges (minus the correction for the empath).

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No I'm not ignoring that option, I just don't agree with it. I think a more drastic option is called for here. Why?

Because the tepid option is worse than just trivializing the thing. I really believe the devs weren't just trying to trivialize the costume pieces. I think they were trying to introduce a "tweak" that would get prices down, but not crashed. If that was their goal they failed miserably.

So my view is if they are going to just lower the requirements, don't beat around the bush, just do it. Because it's going to be trivial anyway. What people will do is just farm the badge at 25 million using the same exploits that they do with it now. And the badge will be utterly trivial. Only thing is so will pretty much all badges, because it will have been proven that complaints, however valid, justify changing the rules midstream.

If you guys enjoy the hunt of "gotta catch em all" I really can't see how you could be behind something that changes the rules mid-stream. Sure Empath sucks, but you know it sucks. Them's the breaks. Why make it easier? All that does is say that the game was too hard so change it so I can win.

What's the point of Empath at that point? It's just another title to put under your character's name at that point. It's meaningless. UNLESS, the only reason you want it, is to satisfy a compulsive tendency to have it. And if that's the case, then you shouldn't badge. It's unhealthy.

So that brings me back to the options I support. Removing the badges, allows the OCD folks to let it go and do something else that they might actually enjoy. Doing nothing maintains whatever minor validity the "game" of badging has. But if that's not acceptable, if you're going to change the rules, then change them for that one badge. Just give Empath to everyone with the badge before it basically and be done with it. Then everyone has the badge and you're done. No need to break all the healing badges which people don't really complain about much.

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So it is okay to make some waste baskets, chairs and tables requiring months or years of exploiting a known game loophole?

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No, it's not OK. I don't see why you're trying to strawman me. I've said repeatedly that I think the epic badges are awful.

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Or do as you suggested, instead of FIXING the requirement, just remove all those decorations?

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Another strawman. I never said "Remove badges" I said, "Remove epic badges". Why? Because the behavior that people have exhibited towards these badges are unhealthy and worse than anything else I've seen in game including loot.

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Lets cure someone's headache by removing his head. What a misguided defeatist attitude.

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This is hyperbole and not really worth responding too. It's well out of proportion to the three options I presented. You ignored the third, which is lower the badge requirement to one above the badge below it. Isn't that what you're arguing for? For the badge requirements to be lowered? Well, I don't disagree with that, but I think if they're going to do it, then do it. Like the costume pieces, make the badge entirely trivial and be done with it.

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People do boring things for loot because it got them badges- and eventually a neat exploding table thingie....not just because it made their character stronger if it made them stronger at all.


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I don't understand. Do you mean the field crafter? That's badgers that got that. Loot mongers like me don't have that. I could care less about being able to craft anywhere.

I don't understand your point. (Not being a smartazz, I really don't understand your point here.)

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He likes to argue with you because it makes him feel/seem smart.

But you know this.

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Not really. I don't EVER start an argument with Arcana. I didn't start this argument. She did. She always feels the need to attack my ideas. Like you.

I don't even know why. You guys refuse to even deal with the on-topic points. Have I said anything about the actual topic of epic badges that you all want to disagree with?

Or do you just want to argue about whether Arcana made an analogy; she did. Or whether I'm a narcissistic; I am.

EDIT: Because you know, I don't like arguing with Arcana most times. It's annoying and it always devolves into these nonsensensical side arguments over nothing important. And I'll be man enough to acknowledge that it's immature of me not to just let it go.

I'll also acknowledge that I needled you a bit (OK a lot) about the costume pieces. Hell, I took advantage just like everyone else of the cheap costume pieces. Whining works. (OK, I'LL STOP! ) Hey what can I say, I'm an [Censored]. But the thing is, I let it go because it seemed like you were really getting upset. And I usually just let Arcana have the last word (like today, I'm not going to respond to her last post, she wins, screw it.)

What I would like to argue with, be it Arcana or you, is the ACTUAL on-topic point that I made about the epic badges.

And I don't want to have actual enemies on the boards so I'll call a truce with you right now if you're willing.

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This will give people a good lesson about badges. Trying to get every single badge is folly. And, in my opinion, it trivializes the badges. Badges both in game and RL are supposed to represent achievement, not doing repetitive boring things. The analogy Arcana made to loot is shown to be even more specious. I don't deny people do boring things for loot, but they do them because they want their character to be stronger. That's not what badges are supposed to represent.

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Badges and loot are virtually identical. Just another thing to wave while shouting "look at me". You can kid yourself that you are just "improving" your character if you like, but its all the same.

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So you can look at my character and see she has Hami-Os? Please tell me, how does that work?

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Except you didn't respond to my point. You just mentioned other useless things in the game that people seem to enjoy. I never said I did. I said loot makes your character better. Which it does. You didn't say anything that rebutted that.

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I *refuted* your point. You said "Empath does nothing", as if that personal opinion is grounds for dismissing it. I listed a number of things that might -seem- useless to some, and clearly dismissing those is folly. Hence your whole arguement of "Empath does nothing" is not only irrelevant, but misguided since value is in the eye of the beholder, and you aren't judge and jury for everyone. If you want to dismiss Empath, come up with a BETTER justification than "it does nothing".


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No. Empath actually has no gameplay effect. That's a fact. Most loot (except costume pieces which I excepted) has a gameplay effect.

You refuted nothing.

All you're saying is that some people have severe enough OCD to desire Empath, which I said a page or so back depending on your settings. Which is why the badge should be removed. The thing is, we all agree that the epic badges are a problem. We just differ in the way they should be fixed. To be clear I want one of three things:

1) Remove them outright; grandfathering in those who already have them.

This will give people a good lesson about badges. Trying to get every single badge is folly. And, in my opinion, it trivializes the badges. Badges both in game and RL are supposed to represent achievement, not doing repetitive boring things. The analogy Arcana made to loot is shown to be even more specious. I don't deny people do boring things for loot, but they do them because they want their character to be stronger. That's not what badges are supposed to represent.

OR 2) Do nothing.

If the badge is supposed to be an "epic" achievement, leave it so. Those who cheat by using Arena bugs fulfill nothing but their obsessive tendencies. Basically if in 3-4 years an Empath who really loves their character and played it hard earned Empath as intended, then cool. They will have earned it and that one badge will be worth more in my estimation that the hundreds of badges the badge hounds have earned.

OR 3) Nerf the badge into meaningless.

Here we lower the badge requirements down to one point of healing (for Empath of course) above the next badge. We do just like the costume piece loot, make them trivial. If people want their little graphic so bad, then fine, give it to them, but let's drop the pretense that it's anything more than making a number bigger.

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Yawn. Loot makes your character better; Empath does nothing.

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Yawn. Decorations in bases do nothing. Costumes do nothing. Character bio and backgrounds do nothing. Standing around in Pocket D roleplaying also does nothing. Just like the Empath badge doing nothing. [u]So glad we have an authority on what is "better" for each of us in a computer game. [u]

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You're more than welcome. Anytime.

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Do feel free to come up with a rebuttal on the logic or reason on my reply. Oh wait, you can't.

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Except you didn't respond to my point. You just mentioned other useless things in the game that people seem to enjoy. I never said I did. I said loot makes your character better. Which it does. You didn't say anything that rebutted that.

So what am I responding to? You see, if you want me to rebut your argument, you actually need to make an argument that's contrary to the position of the person you intend to rebut to your argument.

I don't disagree with your assessment of those other things. It's entirely irrelevant to the point I made, but hey I'm all for people expressing whatever they want on the boards!

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You made an inference.

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Name it.

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You compared loot and these damnable badges. Specifically, you compared the obsessive behaviors that both game mechanics have been known to cause. Here is the relevant definition of analogy:

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resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unlike : similarity b: comparison based on such resemblance

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You mentioned some particulars of both loot and badges, the behaviors they generate, and that some people find loot as uninteresting as badges. Here's what you said:

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because there is no question whatsoever that it generates even more obsessive and unhealthy behavior, and there are at least as many people who find it uninteresting to the game as badges

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So you mentioned the resemblance in some particulars between mechanics that are otherwise unlike to the goal of making a comparison based on said resemblance.

And then for some unknown reason, you argued the nonsensical point that you did not make an analogy, because you are unable to admit error.

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Yawn. Loot makes your character better; Empath does nothing.

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Yawn. Decorations in bases do nothing. Costumes do nothing. Character bio and backgrounds do nothing. Standing around in Pocket D roleplaying also does nothing. Just like the Empath badge doing nothing. [u]So glad we have an authority on what is "better" for each of us in a computer game. [u]

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You're more than welcome. Anytime.

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Except I wasn't drawing an inference.

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Are you going to deny that you did this?

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2 a: resemblance [u]in some particulars between things otherwise unlike[u] : similarity b: [u]comparison based on such resemblance[u]


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You made an inference. It was a poor inference since there is a gameplay based reason to farm for loot (except costume pieces, which I admitted caused similar behavior to these damnable badges).

But whatever, you win. You didn't make an analogy. Despite the fact that what you wrote happens to meet the definition of it, I'll just let you win and say I was wrong. I don't have any problems admitting error, unlike certain math smarties who really should realize that their talents aren't supreme everywhere.

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Back to the actual topic.

The epic badges suck. That's what this post is about. So they should either be removed, or people should accept that they suck and not try to get them.

OR

They should let their OCD get the better of them and farm for them. Then they can move on to the next badge to be obsessed over.

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Poor analogy Arcana.

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I wasn't analogizing.

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Yes, you were.

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You made a specific statement about badges, and how in your opinion because their value is so low (to you), and it potentially encourages obsessive and otherwise unhealthy behavior, you'd have no problem with eliminating them. The exact same thing can be said about loot, only moreso, because there is no question whatsoever that it generates even more obsessive and unhealthy behavior, and there are at least as many people who find it uninteresting to the game as badges. Whether loot is useful or not, or easier to obtain or not, is irrelevant to that perspective.

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That's an analogy.

Merriam-Webster wrote:

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analogy



Main Entry: anal·o·gy
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈna-lə-jē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural anal·o·gies
Date: 15th century
1: inference that if two or more things agree with one another in some respects they will probably agree in others
2 a: resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unlike : similarity b: comparison based on such resemblance
3: correspondence between the members of pairs or sets of linguistic forms that serves as a basis for the creation of another form
4: correspondence in function between anatomical parts of different structure and origin — compare homology

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Jeez, I could say that the world was a sphere and you would say it was round just to argue with me. I know that my thoughts are like nectar for the mind, but you have to let this obsession go.

I told you woman, I'M MARRIED!!

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You mean like the greedy obsessive attitude that surrounds loot?

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Yawn. Loot makes your character better; Empath does nothing.

To the rest tl;dr.

EDIT: And even then, I don't see many posts as obsessed about loot at this. There are a few that are comparable, but those were, again, for the stuff that did nothing like costume pieces.

I know I personally, as loot evangelist, don't get obsessed about it. I still haven't completely IOed out my main and I am in no rush to do so. As I told everyone, loot should be considered a bonus, not an entitlement. Same thing here. Empath is not a right. It's not even that important. If you don't get it you don't get it.

And having when back to your post, you should remember that you can get ANY piece of loot through absolutely NORMAL play. Sure you might have to team to do a TF, but that's behavior the devs wish to encourage.

Poor analogy Arcana.

Loot is what they should have added in I2. Badges...whatever.

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THIS is just craziness here. Can you just imagine the result of a policy like this??

dood...

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I can imagine it and it scares me to be honest. I don't think it's impossible that some badger would become violent. But that's all the more reason, IMO.

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I think the devs simply created a badge they only expected the most dedicated Empath Defenders to ever get and then only after years of play.

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This logic as retarded as if the devs wasting time creating an invention recipe with the odds of 1 dropping in 1 billion once every 25 years so only the most dedicated farmer might have a slim chance. Maybe he supports that kind of "bragging rights" too lol.

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I don't support Epic badges at all, so no I don't support this rationale. Doesn't mean that's not the rationale.

The OCD necessary to care about these badges isn't healthy. They should be removed. Or lowered to one point above the last badge so that the accomplishment is meaningless. In any event, feel free to disagree, but I don't think any developer should encourage the type of behavior I see badgers exhibit.

Grats on the new digs, devs. I hope the new overlords sprung for real offices for you.

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Im stating..... That people CANT and should not always expect to have everything they want.

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You're saying the Devs bothered to code this Empath badge into the game so that we could... what? Look at it on a badge list instead of getting it?

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For most people yes.

I think the devs simply created a badge they only expected the most dedicated Empath Defenders to ever get and then only after years of play.

Like the Master of LRSF/STF badges they're bragging rights badges. Not everyone will have them or should.

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To be honest, reading this forum makes me believe the people who talk about video game addiction. Badges are just a graphic, a title and making a number counter go up by one. We need to get you folks focused on something else.

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Some people enjoy getting badges. Why would you want to take that away from people?

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I laughed at the original quote. [u]How you can compare a video game hobby, to an addiction such as meth or smoking?[u] That is beyond my comprehension.

Life gives you lemons, bro.

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I didn't. Please read more carefully. I said it makes me believe the people who talk about video game addiction. YOU mentioned chemical dependency. And you can be addicted to many things that are not chemical based. There ARE gambling addicts for example.

Now, back to the point, I think the epic badges were a bad idea in the first place. I don't think developers should even encourage people into even semi-destructive behavior. And while the whole game is a time-waster, it's important to keep some perspective.

How much time are you willing to devote to getting this bit of graphic that will someday be erased when the servers are shut-down for good?

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To be honest, reading this forum makes me believe the people who talk about video game addiction. Badges are just a graphic, a title and making a number counter go up by one. We need to get you folks focused on something else.

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Some people enjoy getting badges. Why would you want to take that away from people?

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I wouldn't. I didn't say, "Get rid of badges". I said get rid of the epic badges. Seriously, the level of obsession about these things that are supposed to be obtainable only infrequently is scary. Think about it. If you guys enjoyed the epic badges, then what's the point of this topic?

QR

Serious reply (I'm looking at you Snow Globe). I think they should just retire the epic badges. If you have one, you have it, if you don't you never will.

To be honest, reading this forum makes me believe the people who talk about video game addiction. Badges are just a graphic, a title and making a number counter go up by one. We need to get you folks focused on something else.

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Geko, out of the pool and start a "discussion" somewhere else. We really need this to be flame free.

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I didn't flame anyone and I'm entitled to post my opinion anywhere on the boards. You know that.

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QR

I think all badges should be left alone. In fact, I think they need to create a new class of badges called "Mythical" Badges.

For example,

Incarnate of Asclepius - 1 Billion points of damage healed to player characters only; must have healed at least 1000 unique player controlled entities

Create several more like "Incarnate of Ares", etc. That way, we can finally learn who is the TRUE badge-hunter. Make the number of points needed to get the badge so high that literally trying to finish even one of these badges would preclude the character from doing just about anything else.

Put it out there. Then reward the first person who completes it with a mention on the boards and in game spam.

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I've already thought of a way to game that Asclepius one.

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FINE THEN!!

Make a distributive requirement. You get nothing if any one entity receive more than 5% of the healing!

Require than the character cannot have earned more than .01% of the healing credit in one unique playspace.

Close any and all loopholes. Make the badge for healing ONLY players, ONLY during normal play and require that you find at least 20 different characters to heal for 50 million Health.

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You're a bad man, Geko

Bad!

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Think about how cool it would be if you (and not Beef Cake ) were the first one to earn one.

Of course, this would be after you made it past the competency trial and were allowed out of the mental health institution. But it would still be cool.

QR

I think all badges should be left alone. In fact, I think they need to create a new class of badges called "Mythical" Badges.

For example,

Incarnate of Asclepius - 1 Billion points of damage healed to player characters only; must have healed at least 1000 unique player controlled entities

Create several more like "Incarnate of Ares", etc. That way, we can finally learn who is the TRUE badge-hunter. Make the number of points needed to get the badge so high that literally trying to finish even one of these badges would preclude the character from doing just about anything else.

Put it out there. Then reward the first person who completes it with a mention on the boards and in game spam.

QR

Hmm... going to have to pad out the SG then over the next few weeks. One time grant thing was unexpected.

LH, I assume that means, it's not taken back if the person leaves the SG?

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I smell another cry out from people like what happened to the wing recipes. People are going to complain that they cant afford the price for the recipe. Which in all honesty, will only be afforded by the filthy rich.

But whatever maybe they'll increase the drop rate on them.

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I suspect the same thing will happen. And Positron shot himself in the foot with that article. He stated that they didn't want to gate this to only people with a ton of money. So I think the devs will be stuck if these things are selling in the 8 figure range like we all expect.