EvilGeko

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Smoothing the XP Curve
One thing that we constantly examine is the rate of advancement in the game. In a future version, we intend to smooth out the leveling curve by changing how much experience is given out for defeating opponents. The intent is to smooth out the “bumps” where players typically get stuck leveling up their characters. Keep an eye on coming patch notes for specifics.

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Best thing ever.

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Real Numbers
As a general quality of life improvement we will be adding new functionality in a coming version of the game to display the “real” numbers behind your characters and their powers. This includes a user configurable display of important characteristics such as movement rate, regeneration rate, resistances and many more! Additionally, you will be able to see how those statistics are affected in real time by buffs and/or debuffs affecting your character.

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... NEW best thing ever.

OMG. Lighthouse. Devs. You are finally going to do this.

I may cry. I'm that happy.

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What she said.

I see that Castle hath forsaken me and the WIN will continue unabated!!

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Pretty much.
FA should never have been more than twice as effective as tactics in the first place. Id have gone for a little over tactics (maybe 1.5times) at similar cost.

IIRC as a comparison the pool armours with S/L resists are about 1.7-1.8 times the resistance of tough. (I have to check that and dont have mids here, so please correct if I am wrong)

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Focused Accuracy was intended to be Targeting Drone. In fact, I have a PM from Castle where he confirms that it was supposed to be the same Scale to-hit buff.

However, that's still pretty darn high at 18.5%.

The problem is that Targeting Drone isn't bad for Blasters because Blasters have a .075 Melee to-hit modifier. That makes it 13.875% for them. Tankers and Scrappers have a .1 modifier.

But the problem with this power is that there is simply no problem with it in PvE. None. It's broken in PvP and PvP alone. Thus for the devs to nerf it they would have to acknowledge that they are nerfing a power in PvE solely and completely for PvP.

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So add the oddballs as a 5th and 6th power to each PPP.

If a tank and scrapper can get FA/CP, so should my brute and/or stalker be able to get them.

Let our corruptors run around herding their own spawns like blasters can.

Seriously, it's one or the other. Either give the overpowered powers to the villains to balance against the heroes, or nerf those powers down to levels on par with the PPPs.

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No argument with giving Villains access to FA, but CP exists in Energy and Electric Armor (as someone mentions above) and so it cannot be part of a Villain melee PPP.

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I still stand by the fact that if one truly believes this is one game then there is no reason at all to begrudge an issue devoted to one side or the other. I've yet to see those that state it's one game also say they'd have no problem with that. Of course, they'd have to have no problem with it being red only and not just blue only.

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That's a contradiction in terms. If it's one game, there is no "side" to devote an issue too. Which is my point. You develop and support the game.

Personally, I don't ever want to see an issue like Issue 7 or 8 again. In fact, I also would not like to see any issue of CoX EVER again feature "exclusive" content for either side. By "exclusive" I don't mean story arcs and task/strike forces. I mean more zone revamps and such.

I like that Ouroboros has different content for those of a villainous bent. However, IMO, removing the false separation and allowing people to do whatever content meets their own personal moral compass would be much preferable.

People who like being the bad guy should have content for them. But so should people who want to be the good guy. And people who want to be the neutral, out for self guy.

The problem with this post and many others is that they ignore the last group as if they didn't exist. People should be able to do whatever content floats their boat. And we need a faction system to facilitate that.

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Villains should probably have been integrated into the existing game world, not shunted off into their own. The additions and changes since CoV shipped indicate the devs realize they kind of goofed so we see co-op zones (RWZ), co-op missions (save Baby New Year) or parallel versions of the (mostly) same content (Orouboros).

Anyhoo, my two cents on it.

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And mine as well, especially on this point.

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Please lay out for us what redside content has been bestowed upon us since i7. This does not, need I remind you, include zones that have us rescuing our most hated enemies [lol.... priceless], nor does it include Heaven oopsImean, Oroborous. Villains are ALLOWED INTO those zones; they are by no stretch of the imagination FOR us.


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You can't ask people to detail content for villains and in the same paragraph create an ad hoc exception for any content you don't feel meets you sensibilities. That's not an argument made in good faith.

Isn't it better just to admit that CoV got content, but it's content that you don't personally like? At least that's honest.

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Where all the ATs can solo well at a good pace, unlike hero side, where only one AT can do it. The rest are slow or boring.

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Bill, you been dipping in the happy juice again?

The only hero ATs that are boring to solo, IMO are Kheldians. Seeing them in teams just makes soloing seem stupid.

Villains are pretty easy to solo too, although Dominators kinda annoy me. But I need to stop playing */Psi!

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Well, that would have been my Fury bar had I not rested, as you can't attack without endurance. Moreover, that would have been my health bar, too. Older Dr. Areon? and Professor Echo don't take kindly to being attacked

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There's this thing called Stamina....

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I think you short change the concept of street sweeping in other games a bit -- if all you do is instance missions, an MMO can begin to feel awfully empty and lonely!

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I think we'd get more street sweeping in outdoor debt and indoor debt became the same again. I remember street-sweeping in Perez and Boomtown - sweet times!

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I also think that if the security chiefs gave unlimited hunting missions, you would see a lot more people use the outdoor content.

I would level character that way, for example.

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Very nice post, Brad. Thanks a ton!

I've played a ton of MMOs. I've yet to play one I couldn't take some ideas from. I think you short change the concept of street sweeping in other games a bit -- if all you do is instance missions, an MMO can begin to feel awfully empty and lonely! I like seeing other player wander by doing whatever it is they are doing while I'm gathering the whatsits for my collection quest. I even like competing for resource nodes despite the fact that it often makes me want to slap my fellow players. I definitely get where you are coming from; but I do think there is room for this style of play.

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QFE, QFT. I love City of Heroes, but I play other MMOs often times for all the ways they AREN'T like CoX.

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When did that happen? I'm aware of the devs making balance changes, but I'm not aware of them ever just making a change because it "made sense". In fact, we argue on these boards all the time for things that "make sense" but the devs don't change the rules to accommodate that.

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Several times some agreed with, some not. Most of the changes happened without patch notes.

"Making sense" of course is only in the developer's minds in some cases. Cases to point out: Slayer and Silver Bullet were doubled (silently), Illusionist went from 200 to 500 (again silently, except for that prima guide), Believer was reduced because of a bug that prevented Sally from spawning when she should (it was one of the few changes that DID have a patch note), BP masks in the Portal Corp missions not counting, the original PVP mission badges. I could go on.

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Major difference there. All the badges you're talking about, except the PvP ones are accolade power badges. That makes changes to them balance changes. I was not aware that Slayer and Silver Bullet increased. Certainly explains why it took me so long to farm the last couple of times.

As for the PvP badges, those badges cause behavioral changes in PvP that might not be desirable and thus is a balance change.

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The arguments seem to boil down to: 1) That's too long and 2) it encourages exploits like afk farming.

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Or that combined they are impossible to achieve through play during the expected lifetime of the game.

These exact arguments were made with the mentoring badges when they were introduced. They were changed (again, no patch note). The mentoring badges (as released) might have actually taken less time than to get than the empath badge through play. 3,000 hours mentoring was considered to be far too long to actually achieve.

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Interesting, then I'll yield the point on that revelation. I'm not as keyed into badges so I was not aware of that.

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OK, so let's say it's broken. So what? Why should they do anything about it now? Why should they change the rules? What's the benefit of doing so?

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The same reason they should fix the broken Robo Surgery units, or missing badge graphics, or costume clipping or bad flight pose? Professionalism, pride in one's work, and credibility? Take your pick.

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That's not an unreasonable reason to change it, but don't we have to consider that in a game, changing the rules shouldn't be something done lightly?

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Changing the rules when the rules no longer make sense to the dev is not "done lightly". They have done it before, and they will do it again.

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When did that happen? I'm aware of the devs making balance changes, but I'm not aware of them ever just making a change because it "made sense". In fact, we argue on these boards all the time for things that "make sense" but the devs don't change the rules to accommodate that.

I think it's entirely possible that the devs will change the epic badges. I think they should. Not for the reasons you all ascribe to, which is my point.

What I see here is that people want the badge to be attainable by anyone willing to put in [X] amount of effort. Where [X] is different for different people. I think that no one has made a reasonable argument for why the current requirements are not an appropriate level of effort for [X]. The arguments seem to boil down to: 1) That's too long and 2) it encourages exploits like afk farming.

Well, the second argument certainly justifies a change, but why wouldn't the appropriate change simply be to remove the exploit?

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OK, so let's say it's broken. So what? Why should they do anything about it now? Why should they change the rules? What's the benefit of doing so?

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The same reason they should fix the broken Robo Surgery units, or missing badge graphics, or costume clipping or bad flight pose? Professionalism, pride in one's work, and credibility? Take your pick.

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That's not an unreasonable reason to change it, but don't we have to consider that in a game, changing the rules shouldn't be something done lightly?

Take balance changes. There the rules change because it's (we assume) hurting the game for a set or power to be too weak or too strong. In the case of Empath and the other epic badges however, does that same harm exist that justifies changing the rules mid-stream?

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If it took 50 years, so what?

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Every reward in the game should have been designed around a certain level of effort intrinsicly required to achieve it. If the devs actually explicitly decided to make a reward that would take fifty years to achieve by their estimates, then its designed correctly. If they designed it to be achievable in a much shorter period of time, then its broken.

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OK, so let's say it's broken. So what? Why should they do anything about it now? Why should they change the rules? What's the benefit of doing so?

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Its a different level of question to ask "should the devs be adding rewards to the game that will take longer to achieve than the likely lifetime of the game." But its very likely that is a moot question, because I do not believe the badge was designed in that manner, which makes it broken relative to its design intent, not just "longer than people would like."

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I think it was honestly. I think Positron designed a healing badge that he knew that the vast majority of people would never see and wouldn't even be possible to get with normal play. What evidence do you have to the contrary? I think the badge's design is proof enough of my belief. Similar to how you construe statutes, I believe that we must start from the presumption that the developers intended the game mechanic to work as it does until they say different.

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Although many people think the requirements of Empath are too long simply for personal reasons, there are strong reasons for believing the badge is intrinsicly broken that have nothing to do with the subjective level of effort necessary for any one player to achieve it.

There's no way to absolutely prove that the devs didn't intend Empath to require the level of effort it does, short of them actually saying so. But common sense can suggest it. If the devs added a reward that required a billion vanguard merits to buy, its possible they could have intended that, but I think if I were to say that sounds very likely to be an error, I would consider it a silly counter-argument for someone to assert there's no way I could possible know that the devs didn't intend to create a reward that might require centuries of merit collection to achieve.

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The error here is that you assume that the devs intend for people to have the reward at all. It's entirely possible that the "reward" could be an inducement to certain behavior. For instance if the reward was strong enough I could see raids going on all servers every day for your merit reward.

So if that what the devs want, people raiding every single day that might not be a bad idea.

As for Empath, your point in another post that Empath encourages afk farming is sound. Of course, my solution to that would be to fix that exploit and rescind the badge from those who cheated, but that's me.

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First, I am the high priest of loot and I'll never turn from my lady loot. It's the very fact that I have no concern with her fickleness and wait patiently for her caress that I have not exhibited any OCD tendencies at all.


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Some people refuse to acknowledge that they are OCD about badges, while some refuse to acknowledge they are OCD about other things. Funny thing is, those folks aree usually the last to recognize their own problem. I'm sure you think "you can quit any time too". See? Not so nice when you are on the receiving end, is it? Maybe from now on you'll think twice about mocking others because your self dubbed "high priest" habits might be under the microscope also. And if you think your obsession is somehow BETTER than others, well, I've got news for you. It isn't. Its just as ugly.

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Do you know what obsessive compulsive tendencies are? I really don't think you do. Because if I say, "I really don't care if I get any particular piece of loot." And you say, "You're OCD about loot." All that shows is that you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

EDIT: I guess I should point out here that we're both using the psychological term obsessive-compulsive disorder incorrectly and should stop playing armchair psychologists with a disorder that's very serious.

But I'm a narcissistic (censored), GFN, what's your excuse?

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How long should it take to acquire Empath?

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That is what this discussion is about.

How long for farmers?

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Doesn't this sidestep the foundational question of, "Should everyone be able to acquire Empath?"

I've not seen one argument that addresses that question. Because if the devs never intended for most people to get Empath, then it certainly bears on the remaining questions, wouldn't it?

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This should not even be a consideration. You should not design a game based on extreme behavior. Heal/arena farms are extreme. They are not playing the game, they are setting the game up to play itself while they are away. Do we really want to encourage this?

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No. But I take a small issue with how you worded the statement. The devs MUST consider extreme behavior. The fact that they didn't led to the nerfathon of 2005.

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You're conflating two different concepts in your mind. I'm not saying that everyone who likes badges is exhibiting OCD tendencies. I'm saying that some people take it too far with this need to "have them all".


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I was going to respond to the rest of your post but that last statement just stuck out too much like a sore thumb to not refute. Did you READ this thread, and in particular the OP? Neither the OP nor I were talking about this "must have them all" thing that is in *your* mind. The OP clearly, exactly and articulately detailed why the REQUIREMENT for Empath is stupid. Don't let your pet peeve, which doesn't exist in the OP, turn this legitimate into a platform to discuss what you want, which is apparently badge OCD. Because if you are going to put a spot light on that, don't be surprised that others will put *your* OCD on the spot light. It matters not whether you have zero, or one, or many purple or rare loot pieces. You and I and just about everyone who frequent the forum know who is the loot champion here even if you don't want to admit it. So, do you want to talk about badge OCD, or whether Empath was designed right or not?

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Couple of concepts to unpack there. First, I am the high priest of loot and I'll never turn from my lady loot. It's the very fact that I have no concern with her fickleness and wait patiently for her caress that I have not exhibited any OCD tendencies at all.

Next, as for Empath and the other epic badges. I bring the general issue of obsessiveness into this discussion, because I see no other reason for anyone to care about Empath or the other epic badges. Seriously, if you aren't obsessive about it, why do you care how long it takes?

If it took 50 years, so what? If it takes months of farming, so what? It's a badge. There are several hundred others to seek. Why is this one so important...unless....I was right all along and this is just a very well veiled attempt to ensure that everyone can "catch 'em all."

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Except, you don't see anywhere near the same level of obsessive behavior on these boards towards ultra-rares.

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LOL look in the mirror and see its Champion.

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I don't have one piece of ultra-rare loot. In fact, I've barely played my high level at all. I'm just happy ultra rare loot is THERE! I don't have to have it. Now how is that in any way comparable to the behavior of the people who believe their game is ruined if they don't have Empath?

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In one particular occasion, I remember someone waving a banner with the Apr-June sub numbers and declaring phat loot a winner, but was embarrassingly silent when the Jul-Sept number showed that people came back to give loot a fair try, then decided that they wanted to be elsewhere.

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You didn't read closely enough, because I posted all over those threads. Like I said at the time, people came back for loot, but it didn't keep some. Ah well. I still like loot. In your hazy memory of the subject, you forget that I never said that loot was going to bring people to the game. I said it wouldn't hurt the game.

Zen_Concern and other wackos claimed loot would be the death knell of the game. I said they were nuts. And they were. Else, why is CoX in the running for most improved game of 2007?

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This incidentally was the same someone who fanatically defended just about every post against loot, egging the devs on in every opportunities, but seems to somehow think that the people OCD about loot has left lol. I guess it is true, OCD people are often the last to recognize their own OCD. You reviled and found badge OCD intolerable, but when in fact you aren't that much saintlier than those you denounce. The behavior just comes in a different form.

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All that proves is how little you actually read the posts. I defend loot as an advancement metric, not because I want it. Let's look as some of the "phat loot" of Inventions.

Numina's Regen/Recovery - I have don't have even one on any of my 15 commonly played characters

LoTG 7.5% Recharge - Same

Hamis - My two oldest characters have a few, my main and first character a lot, but that's over 3.5 years of play.

Ultra-rares - none.

I actually don't mind the epic badges. If people would stop obsessing over them and just play then it wouldn't be such a bad thing.

I have actually displayed NONE of the behaviors people here do about these badges. I have defended leaving loot just as rare as the devs want it to be. Because, if you actually read my post, you'll see one unerring trend. I DON'T CARE IF I [u]PERSONALLY[u] HAVE ANY PARTICULAR PIECE OF LOOT. I just like that loot exists as a reward metric. Likewise, if people would just be happy with badges as an achievement and not get so worked up about "catching them all" I would see no problems.

You're conflating two different concepts in your mind. I'm not saying that everyone who likes badges is exhibiting OCD tendencies. I'm saying that some people take it too far with this need to "have them all".

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Funny, you ask "how" and then immediatly state how.

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It was a rhetorical question.

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And the point is that Empath SHOULD NOT BE intended only for a very very small few.

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I think it should, why shouldn't there be some badges that only a very few people will get? I think that makes those badges special. It's like bug hunter. The devs have to give you that badge. And that's what's so great about it. Not everyone is going to have it.

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Maybe, though, your advice can apply to you. Accept that you can't control how others play the game and recognize that you really can't win every argument and find a new thread.

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Not trying to "win". I'm having fun. Heck, you guys should thank me. If I did leave the thread, this would be another thread about Empath that would wither and die with badgers crying in their beer about the badge.

I love when people argue with me in threads I started. Great for bumping!

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BIG difference between coding things you may not want and coding things no one can achieve. If they coded transfers but charged $1,000 for them, it'd be a waste of code because so few people would care. Empath is the same - it's affecting far too few people to be of any use.

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How is that remotely comparable? Transfers are intended to be available widely. Empath is intended to only be available to a very, very small group of people. If Positron thought it would take 5 years, then that shows that the badge isn't intended to affect more than a very select few.

It's pretty clear to me that Positron never intended for people to "catch em all". Otherwise, why make badges like that?

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This may be a shock, but that comment was not about what you PERSONALLY intend to use. This isn't about you.

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Everything is about the EvilGeko. Quiet your insolence against the reptile.

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*sigh*. You're still trying to read into this and make it about personal opinions. It's not. It's about the fact that Empath is far too high and beyond any personal opinion. The decision to want it or not is superceded by the fact that people *can't* get it in rational time.

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But it's only your opinion (shared by other I'll admit) that the badge requirements are too high.

And there's an assumption built into that opinion that I don't think is true. That assumption is that the developers intend for it to require a reasonable amount of effort to earn every badge.

I've seen absolutely NO evidence of that at all. In fact, the contrary assumption, that I hold, is almost certainly true. And that is that the devs really don't intend for one person to easily, if at all, have every single badge that exists and certainly not the epic badges.

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There is another option: (C) Recognize that you really, really don't have to "have them all" and just accept that you'll never have Empath.

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You mean, C) Lower your standards.
You mean, C) Consider that the Devs bothered coding content you're not intended to use.
You mean, C) Don't bother actually wanting to play and enjoy this game. Leave. Go somewhere else.
Right. Sure. Whatever....

None of those make any sense.

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Correct. None of your specious statements above make any sense.

I don't see how it's lowering my standards to accept that the badge requirements are extremely high and that I won't therefore have a badge.

As for coding content that I'm not intended to use, the devs do that all the time. I've not used the rename or server transfer yet. Despite the fact that I whined for it for many years, I've yet to actually make use of the unlimited respecs now available to us. Not everything in the game is going to be things "I'm intended to use." And thank goodness for that.

The last comment is simply petulant. With any MMO you have to find the enjoyment in it that you will and accept that in a game that's intended to appeal to broad groups of people, that there will be things that you don't like in the game. I hate ED, but I still enjoy the game as a whole. Are you really telling me, that giving up on Empath would mean you wouldn't enjoy the game? Is that what you mean?

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Now if a dev comes out and says, look we're sorry we messed this one up and changes it I'll try real hard to not throw myself off a cliff.

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Lets face facts here. Unlike zookeeper, which is part of an accolade, Empath is not needed for anything else.

So your choices are: (A) Try get the requirements changed, or (B) Do meta-gaming to "have them all".

You chose option (B). That this took nine months of your gaming time is no one else's fault.

I guess that is the price for having the badge sooner than the rest of the population.

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There is another option: (C) Recognize that you really, really don't have to "have them all" and just accept that you'll never have Empath.

Because, IMO, that's the best option by far. B is crazy, and probably cheating. A is basically asking the devs to change the rules mid-stream to the detriment of those who did B. And the detriment of the "game" of badging.



I guess this really gets to what badging is supposed to be about. Is it's "Gotta catch em all" or is it, "Wow this hero(villain) did this heroic(dastardly) thing!" I think originally it was supposed to be the latter, but the OCD that MMO gamers exhibit morphed it to the former.

What I would love to see it the devs make badges that are mutually exclusive, or that are exclusive to certain sets. For instance, create a "Swordsmaster" badge (if there isn't one already) that ONLY swords sets can earn by unlocking more sword options. Empath could have been limited to Defenders, Controller, Corrupters and MMs. Things like that.

I think it would be so much better for the game as a whole, if it became completely impossible for one character to have all the badges.

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I hope your month gets better.

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This month, both personally and professionally (and recreationally come to mind), has been awesome.

I not sure what you think is "weird" about my argument that the epic badges encourage behavior that is counter productive and thus the badges should be removed. I'm not upset at all. In fact, to be honest, I really don't care what the devs do. I just find this to be an interesting question of MMO design and ethics.

Like Arcana said awhile back, I would never have created this badge (or any of the healing badges) in the first place. But now that they have, if we recognize that there is a problem, then it seems to me that ALL options should be on the table.

What's so crazy about just removing the badge? You remove the badge, then the total badge count goes down by one, a badger doesn't have to concern themselves with it, and it's over.

I ask you, "Why is that not a reasonable and humane response to the problem?"

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In fact, ultra rare phat lewt encourages the same obsessive stupid farming behavior too. Lets remove all epic loot. Pwnt.

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Except, you don't see anywhere near the same level of obsessive behavior on these boards towards ultra-rares. If so, show me. Where are the dozens of posts screaming about how ultra-rare loot is too hard so make it easier? Because I don't see any.

What I see is people having fun with loot. The OCD people about loot left, thank goodness. And this all ignores the fact that there are game balance reasons why ultra-rares are ultra rare.

Pwnt what? In your imagination maybe, with the people so "obsessed" about loot.

I will say you were right about one thing. Empath isn't meaningless. It's dangerous and destructive. Anything so useless that gets people so worked up and crazy should be removed. Period.

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So that brings me back to the options I support. Removing the badges, allows the OCD folks to let it go and do something else that they might actually enjoy. Doing nothing maintains whatever minor validity the "game" of badging has. But if that's not acceptable, if you're going to change the rules, then change them for that one badge. Just give Empath to everyone with the badge before it basically and be done with it. Then everyone has the badge and you're done. No need to break all the healing badges which people don't really complain about much.

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What if the OCD folks enjoy doing the OCD things? I enjoyed getting Empath just the way it is. I met some great people who all share the same affliction as I. Those are the same people I got MoSTF with which was one of my favorite activities in me entire time on CoH.

I've grinded through all the story lines a few times, did some pvping, went to the parties, Hami raided, etc etc, but badging is my biggest love and always will be, just like you enjoy the loot and others would quit if they couldn't pvp. I still have a job, pay my bills, enjoy a perfectly fine social life with my wife as do pretty much all the other people who heal farmed in the arena with me. Can badging be unhealthy? Probably. But it isn't an assured cause and effect situation. Can playing a bunch of violent video games be unhealthy? Probably for the wrong person. Ban all violent video games? I hope not.

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If I understand your post correctly, it's a vote for doing nothing. Which I also support. Grats on Empath. If you enjoyed getting it, that enough.