EvilGeko

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I honestly have no idea how they got the powersets done as quickly as they did as well as they did.

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That seems to get quoted a lot, but I think people are missing the point. They got everything ready, functioning and actually playable for the release of an MMO, in a time when it was customary for MMOs to be shunted off to Live in a stage only tangentally better than early Beta. When City of Heroes launched, one of the key points people kept praising the game for was the fact that it launched without any showstopping bugs and with pretty high quality. The game worked!

To me, the mere fact that they actually got all powers animated and working really is doing things quickly and well. It may not have been a perfect setup, but it worked.

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On the other hand, I think what Starsman was commenting on was that the powers system worked, but it really couldn't be said to work well. I think we've forgotten how broken the powers system was at launch, but as an example of how broken things were remember it was possible then to have 100% resistance. Sure all the powers worked. But you really couldn't say that this game launched with a powers system that was sensible.

No. Spammers are now shunted to an easily ignorable area. I had a character who I hadn't logged on in awhile. When she logged in she had 131 emails. They were deleted in 10 seconds.

I will agree with nothing that even has the potential of sending the spammers to the chat system.

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The Dev's are in a tough spot.

1 - Everyone loves to level. Related to that is the idea that L1-L20, especially the teens, can be quite boring/frustrating especially if you've done it before.
2 - They don't want to lose a whole crop of new paying customers.
3 - They don't want to lose many existing customers.
4 - They want the AE to be popular.
5 - They don't want the AE to dominate the game experience.

I don't know what they could do that would satisfy everyone. The speed of farm-leveling is way beyond anything any of us have ever thought possible, and that defines it as "not working as intended", therefore taking advantage of that to go from L1-50 in a day is by definition, an exploit. Of course, it's tough to tell someone what "fun" is supposed to be in a game.

The Dev's are in quite a pickle...

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They are, but the solution is to man up and do something like the following (these aren't the only things they could do, of course):

1) Force some standards on AE missions: i.e. missions must spawn like normal mission content. Custom groups must have at least one minion class mob, one lt. class mob and one boss class mob;

or

2) Nerf the rewards;

or

3) Set a minimum level to use AE or otherwise gate it;

or

4) Be absolutely ruthless in taking action on accounts that set up farming missions.


All of these will cause people to quit, will result in doom threads, etc. There are other solutions that are even worse. But really the devs have to get off the fence and decide what they want AE to be.

If they don't want it to be a farming tool, then they need to stop screwing around and fix the system. OR just let people farm and accept that their game experience will be a laughingstock.

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[u]The devs need to find a reason to make players want to come out of the farms, many will always take the path of least resistance[u], the question becomes how watered down do we want the standard game to become to achieve the goal of playing as intended?

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Correct. The answer is for AE not to be the path of least resistance. Someone above put it quite well. Take out the farms and AE is still providing outsized rewards because you can just sit in that building and never leave, except maybe to vendor/craft if you use IOs.

I'm not saying nerf AE rewards into the ground, but I AM saying recognize that normal content is at a disadvantage right now. The normal content provided a fair leveling experience. AE is the new thing. Nerf it, so that it provides a reasonable leveling experience.

If you want to kill bosses all day, that's cool. But give then them less exp so that it's no better than fighting a normal exp rich mission on Invincible.

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Its the attitude of some people, always trying to say that theirs is the only truth, and that their vision of the game is sacred and cant be stained by the AE. People that "decide" that they "know" whats best for everyone.

Thats what makes me sick.

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I see people expressing an opinion, but I haven't seen anyone state that their beliefs represent objective truth.

Perhaps the sickness came from what you had for dinner?

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But the fact remains is that whether you agree or not, this is a real problem for the long term health of the game.

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So is that an objective opinion or objectve truth, cause i thought fact ment it was a truth?

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You win. I misspoke. I'm going to go back to arguing about the topic.

Sigh... this again. To start off with, all the SoA are awesome and I've never understood the need to ignore that Forts, Crabs and NW have clear advantages over Banes.

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Night Widows have no mitigation in their attacks, which banes have stuns, a hold, and knockdown. This helps not only the Bane survive but any teammates as well. One major way this is important is the ability to de-toggle nasty debuffs or buffs that enemies may use (hurricane, chill of the night, invincibility).

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False. NW have very high levels of -recharge which they can stack up on a tough enemy in seconds. It's quite amazing when you see a mob running away because it no longer has any attacks recharged.

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Having access to -res makes the bane better at fighting tougher bosses not to mention that Banes do Smashing, toxic, and energy dmg which are less resisted than lethal and psi.

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Again, false. Both -res cause redraw which hurts Bane DPS which already lags behind Night Widows.

I'm not biased by the way. I play a Widow/Fort and a Bane/Huntsman. I think that the Bane is good, the huntsman amazing (almost as good as a Crab without the ugly arms), and the NW/Fort obscenely strong.

I like Banes a lot. I really think they're fun to play. But they don't compare offensively to Widows and they are at best equal to Widows on the defensive front.

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rad

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Why does rad suddenly seem to be back on people's lists of what you absolutely super-duper must have to ever kill an AV ever ever? Did I miss something, or are people still stuck on the 'omg it's got the super best -regen!' thing, even though that's no longer true?

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I don't look for Rads for the -regen at all. Hell, I look at Lingering Rad as almost skippable.

I look for rads for the consistent -to-hit, -def, -dam, and -res

Other sets can all do the same jobs equally well, but no other set can throw down debuffs and do other things simultaneously. While playing a rad you can just toggle up your debuff powers, and then spend the rest of the fight blasting, healing, rezzing, holding, whatevering.

Every other powerset that has equal or better debuffs has to interrupt whatever else they may be doing to use them.

THAT'S why I look for rads. They aren't necessarily the BEST debuffers, just the most consistent.

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I agree with this, but would go further and say that Rads really are the whole package when fighting a strong single target fighter like an AV or GM.

All three of their primary debuffs (LR, EF, RI) help you both offensively and defensively. Rad then gives you a bit of damage buffing, endurance recovery and recharge in one click. Rad also can top you off with its heal if the mob gets a few lucky hits in.

Rad just does it all, and does it all pretty well. That's why I like it.

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Its the attitude of some people, always trying to say that theirs is the only truth, and that their vision of the game is sacred and cant be stained by the AE. People that "decide" that they "know" whats best for everyone.

Thats what makes me sick.

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I see people expressing an opinion, but I haven't seen anyone state that their beliefs represent objective truth.

Perhaps the sickness came from what you had for dinner?

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This thread makes me feel sick.

Come on... stop trying to decide what people should do. Do you pay for their accounts?

And stop bickering around because other people are having fun in a way you dont want.

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A patient tells his doctor, "It hurts when I move my arm like this." So the doctor says, "Don't move your arm like that."

If the thread makes you sick, then don't read it. But the fact remains is that whether you agree or not, this is a real problem for the long term health of the game. AE distorts the experience of the game. This isn't about nerfing farming. Hell, I don't care if people farm TV missions or portal missions until their eyes bleed. I don't even care if vets like you farm AE until your eyes bleed.

But newbies need to learn what the game has to offer before they choose that path. Right now, AE is the draw du jour so new folks don't even know what's out there.

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And all the farmers go back to using missions in PI or Granville like they did before the AE missions, so whats the difference.


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New folks have to learn what PI and Grandville are before they get powerleveled. And as you know, there isn't a farm in PI that's as good as the stuff AE makes.

Listen, lower the rewards and you can leave creativity free. People who want to have a mission full of Green Mitos, who cares if you can't earn much exp. Same with Comm Officers. You can have a map of them right now, but it's not worth any more than any other map full of minions.

Lower the rewards, AE gets used for what it's intended to be used for.

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MMOs are about balance and even if you take farming out of the equation, AE is not balanced.

-Regular missions have contacts you have to earn/find, then continually travel to until you get their cell. AE puts the contact right next to you.

-Regular missions have doors that can be on the other end of the zone or even in another zone entirely. AE always has the door right next to you.

-If you want to go to the hospital in a regular mission it could put you hundreds of yards away from the mission door, the AE hospital always puts you right next to the mission door.

-Random missions give you random salvage and recipe drops. AE tickets allow you to more selectively choose your drops.

-If you're having to buy enhancements with influence you will have to find a vendor selling your Origin, then you'll have to wade through the sometimes oddly named inventory list (curse you Magic Origin). If you use AE tickets you travel a few feet to a single person who offers not only every type of regular enhancement, they even have a nifty menu that lets you select the type of enhancement you're looking for.

These are just a few of the examples of how convenient AE is compared to regular content. Why does AE not have ANY downfalls to balance all of its amazing features that dwarf the regular content?

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Well said. I really think the answer is just lower (not necessarily drastically) AE rewards. People who play for story and aren't focused on leveling won't care, but the farms go bye bye.

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That's my question to those of you who've argued in favor of this because we already have things that give us tangible in game benefits. If we're going to use that argument to justify why it's okay to let us buy IOs too, where should the line be drawn? And I don't mean that sarcastically at all, I'd really like to hear your answer.


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To be honest, I don't know. I suspect the answer to that question lies in whether the PvE game is intended to be an achievement exercise. By that I mean whether the devs feel that the 'point' is to amass ever further improvement in your character. If it is so intended, then the line is pretty clear, you should not be able to 'buy' your way to power.

If the devs are flexible on that concept, then I think the line might go up to buying levels. I think that might be the only place that the devs do not budge.

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For me, currently the ITF is the pinnacle of TFs in the same way the Faultline arcs hold the title of best zone content for story and gameplay in the game.


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Agreed as to both. Can you imagine how often Posi would be run if it were shortened to 4 well designed missions?

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I am against any micro transactions in this game.

I will not play games with micro transactions.

Micro transactions give an unfair advantage with people with more money. Sure the game is here to make money on one level, but it is also here so that people can enjoy it and thus money is made. If you are disadvantaging people because of how much money they can put into a game, you are going to drive people away that don't want to be "nickel and dimed" by Micro transactions.

Micro transactions was one of the final nails driven into the coffin for Champions Online - as far as I'm concerned.

The Boosters are one thing. They aren't make or break and they don't give a statistical advantage in the game.

What you are suggesting does offer a statistical advantage.
Also, virtually everything that you can use in game is on sale at the Markets. Rares are rare for a reason - they are rares. Purples are Ultra-Rares - they aren't supposed to be available all the time for everyone...how would they be "ultra-rare" if they were?

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IMO, this is the real argument that most people are dancing around, but haven't had the courage to own up to it. Personally, I disagree with this argument. Few reasons:

1) Micro-transactions, as contemplated here, give an advantage, but "unfair" is a value judgment. Many things in life give an advantage if you're willing to poor more money into them. Golf, many types of animal and vehicle racing, hell even swimming (there were some great articles during Phelps run about new swimsuits) provide a meaningful advantage to those with more cash.

2) Yes, some people will be "driven-away" by micro-transactions. However, some people with more money than time might be encouraged because they can now translate some of their real-world wealth into the game.

MMO players often seem to think that time is the only "fair" means with which reward folks. I don't think that's very fair. Some folks don't have as much time to put into the game. Were I not a busy manager and professional with a wife and two boys I probably would have many more of the game's rewards (I do OK now though).

However, why is it "unfair" for me to translate my professional success into leveling the playing field with some kid who has no responsibilities and thus has time to amass untold wealth and power in the game.

One of the reasons that I love the market is that it allows me to make a decent sum of inf without farming. Micro-transactions that matter would just provide another choice.

3) Ultimately, other than PvP (which is broken), this really isn't a competition. Yes, I know I just described it as such above, but that was in response to Alt's point. In general, I really don't care what some other guy does. I play for me. I like shinies, not because some other guy doesn't have them, but because I do.

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I would suggest that there never again be an AT designated "epic". New ATs should just be regular ATs available at character select. I would much prefer a number of "neutral" (that can play on either side) ATs to coincide with Going Rogue.

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I disagree (unsurprisingly.)

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You would disagree with me if I said the Atlantic Ocean is a body of water.

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Heh. No, some things I might actually agree with you on.

This just doesn't happen to be one of them.

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You don't think the Atlantic Ocean is a body of water?

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I would suggest that there never again be an AT designated "epic". New ATs should just be regular ATs available at character select. I would much prefer a number of "neutral" (that can play on either side) ATs to coincide with Going Rogue.

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I disagree (unsurprisingly.)

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You would disagree with me if I said the Atlantic Ocean is a body of water.

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What did you say Geko? I can't see it?

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Quoting a post without further comment is the equivalent of saying, "I agree with this poster and have nothing to add."

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Now, look at IOs.
- Provide a decided advantage over a character without it.
- Advantages are permanent (until de-slotted, of course.)
- Multiples can be slotted (uniques aside) multiplying those advantages.
- Can be traded in-game.
- Can be sold for in game currency.
- Can alter a character well outside the bounds of standard slotting and "lucky" drops. (See multi-perma doms, def-softcapped Blasters and the like.)

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That's only true when you compare a build with a LOT of IOs to one with none.

No individual IO enhancement is that powerful. Let's look at a powerful enhancer, the LoTG +def/+7.5% recharge. Nice buff, but it's a little over a tenth of the boost of Hasten and it requires a slot.

Even a whole set of bonuses provide only marginal benefit. It's when you've stacked them up in large quantities where they get overwhelming.

Now I recognized you edited your post to respond to this, but a non-tradeable set where the benefits were specifically tailored to be useful, but not overpowering (i.e. stay way from +def, +recovery and the like) would be worth looking at before dismissing out of hand IMO.

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That said, you're refusing to see, or downplaying, some of the major differences between the little in-game buffs and purchasing an IO set (or more than one.)

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Again, what I think you're missing in my post is that this is not a black and white issue. I could come up with an IO set that would not be overpowered, but people might enjoy buying. You can control the variables you talk about.

The problem I'm having with your criticism of the idea is that you're not even considering the possibility that there is a middle ground. That's poor form. Especially to use against someone who isn't a regular on these boards like the OP.

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I can but I don't want to

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And the magnitude or degree between a tiny buff and an IO set is what you're ignoring in this argument.

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NO. I. AM. NOT.

EvilGeko wrote earlier in this thread:

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[u]Of course, this would be an order of magnitude more powerful,[u] but I don't think it's so easy to dismiss this idea.

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As I said above, micro-transactions already provide tangible benefits to the PvE game; [u]we're only arguing about the degree that micro-transactions should be allowed to cross the line.[u]

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[u]The point is that this is a matter of degree.[u] The argument that "We only pay for fluff" is false. You can argue that it's not, but the numbers are what they are. Mystic Fortune provides real buffs.

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I have said multiple times in this thread that we're arguing about a matter of degree. In fact, I mentioned this the very first time I posted, it wasn't a refinement of my argument. I stated that this idea is of "an order of magnitude more powerful." I ignored nothing. I haven't even argued that this is a good idea. I've simply stated the truth; the devs have tipped their toes in the "micro-transactions affecting the game" pool. The only question is how far are they willing to go.

Bill, you plain out didn't read what I wrote in this post. I don't do that to you, I ask that you don't do it to me.

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Evil, would you agree to this?

The devs aren't going to sell something that can be traded between players ingame.

Purchased Respecs cannot be traded or sold to other players.

Purchased Jetpacks cannot be traded or sold to another player.

Purchasing the ability to cast buffs on allies cannot be traded or sold to someone on another account.

The devs aren't going to turn the company store into an official version of the scum sucking RMT vampires that are a bane to this game.

If they do sell something it will only be able to be used by the account that buys it.

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Yeah I agree with that. In fact, I said as much above. I think the argument that selling say a Numina's +regen/+recovery will enable the RMT parasites is a sound argument against this idea.

However, if the devs decided that they would create a separate non-trade IO set that they sold via micro-transactions, then I would at least want to see how it affected balance before I said, "no."

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I would suggest that there never again be an AT designated "epic". New ATs should just be regular ATs available at character select. I would much prefer a number of "neutral" (that can play on either side) ATs to coincide with Going Rogue.

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A benefit for whom? Not for you.

Yes, I know, you're going to trot out the "what helps my teammates helps me" argument. Irrelevant.

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Nonsense. Utter nonsense. Based on this "logic", the devs could sell the ability to give Fortitude. Is that what you're saying?

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So no, your point doesn't stand.

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That's entirely your ill-reasoned opinion. The fact is that these are real, tangible buffs. That they are random only deals with the degree to which we have crossed the line into paying for effectiveness.

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The horse is still safe and secure in its stall. There's an entire world of difference between spoon feeding players IOs which they can use to completely trick out a character, including enough set bonuses to acquire "desirable" effects such as perma-Hasten, and giving players access to a power which randomly grants minor buffs.

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Which is exactly what I said, but in your zeal to be right you ignored the point. The point is that this is a matter of degree. The argument that "We only pay for fluff" is false. You can argue that it's not, but the numbers are what they are. Mystic Fortune provides real buffs.

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That's a wonderfully self-serving observation. It's wrong, of course, but it's very nicely stated.

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Not sure why you felt the need to be nasty other that you're in the mood to be a jerk, but OK.

There's nothing "self-serving" about the statement. That just indicates that you have a poor command of the English language. I've not even stated that I agree with the OP's idea, so it's entirely wrong to suggest that I have a dog in this hunt. My argument is solely against the specious and false idea that all microtransactions are for "fluff". They aren't. That's simply a fact.

Respecs aren't fluff;

Flight powers aren't fluff;

Ally buffs aren't fluff.

They aren't cosmetic. They do things. That the existence of these items undercut your argument is not my problem. They do.

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No, they really don't.

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Think what you like.

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EQ2's "problem" was that it was named EQ2. Anyone who didn't like EQ was likely to pass up EQ2 without even trying it. It also doesn't help that SoE is/was fairly notorious as far as MMO developers go. Also I remember the system requirements being pretty steep at release. No matter what the game turned into, these preconceptions at release pretty much kept it from beating out WoW before it even got a chance. Even if an MMO eventually becomes the greatest game ever through updates, it's very hard to convince people to come play if the general consensus at release was that it's not very good.


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Yup. Occasionally a burned out WoW player will post on the EQ2 boards about how they missed this game and it usually winds up being something just like this. I really get bored very quick with WoW, but have been playing EQ2 for 5 years off and on.

Oh and on-topic. Trying to find gamecards is a waste of time IMO. If you don't want to use your own debit or credit cards, buy a pre-paid VISA card from a supermarket, bank, 7-11, etc. Functionally the same as a gamecard, but you're replacing the sales tax with a small charge for the card. Some cards only ask you to pay the fee once and then let you reload it with value for free.

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The fortune teller buff is a bit overpowered for a booster pack power imo, but, then again, it's balanced a bit around the fact that it's a random buff and can't be used on yourself.

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My point stands though. The Mystic Fortune power provides a real, tangible in-game benefit only obtainable via purchase.

Upon reflection, I think if the devs came up with a SEPARATE line of IOs that were obtainable via micro-transactions, I don't think any of the contrary arguments made here hold water. Especially if those IO sets were no-trade. Everyone keeps saying, "Keep micro-transactions fluff." Well, that horse left the barn.

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The mission transporter, and purchased Jump pack provide about as much real comparative benefit as an unslottable travel power: they're not going to make you harder to kill in a fight, but they'll let you get to your missions faster.

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Respectfully, that's not the point. After the blaster buffs and the introduction of reward merits, we know that the devs balance around the speed characters obtain rewards. They do NOT balance, except superficially, around difficulty. Thus mission transporter provides a great boon, shaving some significant time off certain tasks in the game. For example, the Freak and Rikti respecs are much quicker when everyone can port to the reactor when the last mission is up. I believe this is the reason that the power has a 2 hour recharge, purely as a balance to avoid people using it to supercharge their earning rate.



As I said above, micro-transactions already provide tangible benefits to the PvE game; we're only arguing about the degree that micro-transactions should be allowed to cross the line. Is it a good idea to provide those with real world resources the ability to buy uberness? I don't know. But, it's not immediately obvious to me, and shouldn't be to anyone who is thinking logically, that the devs wouldn't consider it.