EvilGeko

And I am swayed by the detailed and thoughtful argument.

Actually, this is the problem with VEATs to hear some tell it. And I think it gets to a very germane distinction that's at the heart of the this thread. For Kheld lovers, almost to the person, I've seen they like the Kheldians because they are unique. Whether they think they're underpowered, perfect, or overpowered, folks tend to just like Kheldians because they are substantially different than other ATs.

My constant foil Memphis Bill comes to mind.

By contrast, some of us, look at the "under the hood" stuff and care about it much more. VEATs for example, feel very unique to me because their AT modifier (1 in almost every category) gives their playstyle a very unique feel, even if their powers themselves aren't so unique. And so I like them. If a PPD AT were similarly gifted, I don't think the fact that I could create analogues would make any difference to me at all. An AR/Traps Defender would NOT be a PPD. No matter how many powers they shared. Just like a Claws/SR Stalker is not a Night Widow and doesn't play like one.

I can recognize that this different outlook colors this discussion, but I don't ascribe any greater moral weight to either position.

Agreed, but then, some people would like villainous Kheldians on red side. I think what's being asked for is a mirror of each side's epic choice.

Although, you might be right and perhaps having epic ATs are just "fail" as a concept and all new ATs (if any) should be available at character select.

This. A PPD or Longbow, branching epic AT that's actually epic like the Soldiers of Arachnos would be great.

This could be the reason that Castle doesn't see a problem. Not suggesting it is the reason, just that it could be.

Brutes, to be honest, already get the best of both worlds while under extreme buffing. They get to be tanks and scrappers at the same time. It doesn't strike me as particularly unfair that this power be better on Scrappers.

I don't think it's that people can't handle it. It's that KB needs to be practiced. Most secondary effects are unreservedly useful or at least not detrimental. Take my BS Scrapper's -defense. With all the accuracy enhancement and +to-hit I have, it's pretty useless to me, but I can just ignore it. KB isn't that way.

Personally, I think KB is peachy on specific powers (like Shockwave), for example. Shockwave is a good power, but you can live without it. It's not critical to a claws player.

Energy Blasters or Peacebringers tend to have to put up with it in every other attack, which is annoying. Although I do like Solar Flare on my PB.

BTW - this wouldn't be a "negative" enhancement. It would be an enhancement with an enhancement value of 0. Zero times anything equal zero, which would then eliminate the KB. And all KB enhancement right now adds to the magnitude. When a melee character slots a KB enhancer in a KD power, it increases that KB magnitude of .67.

Umm... Remember, I was responding to your point that Scrappers aren't a generalist AT. They are. They have all they need to succeed in this game. That's a fact. I never said anything about Blasters not having superior damage. Not sure where you got that.

My position (None of these comments need to be read in context, they stand alone):

• Kheldians are OK, but not particularly effective as an AT.
• My reasoning is that I believe that the forms are a poor mechanic used to justify overly weakening the human base form. Also, I don't enjoy the inherent because of its uselessness while solo.
• I would prefer a Kheldian AT, where the forms are more of a choice. I believe that after the recent buffs, Nova qualifies, but Castle, by admission holds status protection hostage in dwarf form to make it attractive.
• If you disagree with the above and nevertheless find Kheldians fun, great. I do not. But I also don't have any quarrel with people for enjoying them.

OK. But I already said that if you just enjoy Kheldians then that's cool. We're discussing effectiveness. So what's your point?

EDIT: Why do you even feel the need to justify something as subjective as "fun"? If you find it fun, why does it even matter what I think? Or are you trying to convince yourself?

OR...I was responding to a specific point.

Right, which is why I said they were the best generalist AT.

Sadly, they're really not. Controllers are intricate. Defenders are intricate. Kheldians are actually pretty straightforward. Need a lot of defense in a hurry, dwarf. Feel like you can blast away, nova. The human form is at least somewhat interesting, too bad it's loaded with limitations to make the forms more attractive.

Or you could use Scrappers' gifts to do things, you could never dream of with Kheldians. Or Controllers' if you like something less direct. Kheldians' weakness as an AT can't be explained away by saying, "Well, you only care about DPS, so, of course, you don't get it." Nope. My Ill/FF Controller, has crappy DPS. My Cold/Ice Defender has crappy DPS. But they aren't nearly as tedious to play as either of my Kheldians, although they both kill slower when solo.

Kheldians mechanics are just poorly executed. The forms feel tacked on, not integral to the AT. They limit the human form, not enhance it.

OK. But it's not an argument to say that, "You only like playing Superman." I don't. I like playing lots of different characters. My Blasters, for example, Little Frosty and Flamewasp, are substantially less tough than either of my Kheldians, but they're fun. They don't have the tactical limitations that Kheldians do.

Kheldian forms are an awful mechanic. It could have been good, but they lead to an AT that is poorly designed. That's my beef with Kheldians. All you've been arguing in this thread is that people who don't like Kheldians must like Superman. It's you that's biased. You can't see that people could have objections to the Kheldian AT that are substantive and real. It's a crappy argument you're making here. If you like Khelds, bully for you. But that doesn't give you any purchase to insult those who don't.

I have no idea of the context of this comment, but this doesn't seem fair to me. Sure the lethal sets get secondary effects, but then so does DM, Elm, FM and MA. I think the real question is what do the lethal sets get ON TOP of the secondary effects all sets get.

I've never understood why all KB powers couldn't have the following:

.67 KB, ignores buffs and enhancements;
[X] KB

Where [X] is whatever KB the power has now. Then you have a -KB IO that reduces the KB magnitude to zero. Power then does KD, because the .67 isn't enhanceable. Anyone know why that wouldn't work?

This game is about killing and surviving while doing same. Scrappers can do both. Control and range are irrelevant when you can do the above.

The point stands though. Getting to level 24 has no relationship to half a character's lifetime. It's more like 1/5. And that's if you retire the character at 50.

My first 50, spent maybe a month or two getting to 24, another 5 months getting to 50, and has been there for five years and gets playtime. Having the branching at 24 gives you more than just a taste of the basic branch and I like that.

I want to disagree with the first one, but really, when you branch isn't a big deal to me.

As to the second point, this really doesn't work in CoH/V unless the branching path is at least partially a continuation of the basic path. This works in Aion, because a Gladiator or a Templar are still tanks, still close in melee fighters. Chanters and Clerics are still priests, etc.

This is effectively how Night Widows work, though. And I'll note that you claim to like them the least of the VEATs.

Finally, permanent choices are and always will be a bad idea in MMOs. MMOs expect you to play characters for years. CoH/V is probably a bit different in that it expects you to alt a lot. But I have always thought permanent choices are a bad idea. Because things change in MMOs, and people have to make decisions based on what they know when they make decisions. And since nothing is permanent to the devs, they should provide their players the same courtesy.

Indeed.

Probably nowhere, since they're off soloing their own missions set for 8 players! But remember the point, Kheldians as this "leader". Not discussing team usefulness, just the team need to wait for a Kheldian to "spearhead" their missions with the silly transformations, while the team could be killing.

Again, you didn't read my comments in context of the discussion and the point I was responding to. The point I was responding to, was that Kheldians are not needed to SPEARHEAD a team. And they aren't. No one is. Perhaps Tankers for some content, but that's it. That's the point I made, and you just agreed with it above. Thank you.

Yes, and they are woefully behind the other generalist AT, Scrappers. As others have pointed out, this is because of the flaws inherent in the design of the AT.

No argument with that point, but then that's not what's under discussion. We're here talking about effectiveness. Why do HEATs "feel like fail?" They feel like fail, because they are not as effective as most Hero ATs. It's that simple. I happen to think that well played Kheldians are middle of the road. Not bad, but not great either.

That has nothing to do with how fun people find them. There's no need for anyone to justify their enjoyment.

Scrappers, don't need anyone to spearhead anything for them. The best of them can do on their own, what a team is expected to be able to do. There's a reason they specifically mentioned Scrappers when talking about the new difficulty slider.

Tankers, don't need a spearhead. THEY ARE THE SPEARHEAD!! They can walk into situations that even the most well built Khelds can't.

Controllers and Defenders united grant themselves and their minions the power to do anything.

Blasters can melt most things so long as a real Tanker is there to handle what's left.

Where's Kheldians in that picture?

Yes, as I said, tedious. You're fighting the deficits inherent in the AT, but still managing to be successful. I understand and respect your grit. It's that same tenacity that's allowed me to get my Kheldian's to high level.

But I don't fool myself into thinking that this somehow makes them harder to play. Just tiresome. Yes, VEATs handle the standard content with ease. If I want to "put effort in to fight the enemies" then I up the difficulty or take on bigger game. And I get rewarded for the trouble.

You're too kind...no seriously. I have much stronger words for the folly that is the Kheldian inherent.

The same could be said for the Defender's inherent, but at least Defenders bring a lot to the team.

Made beating him up all the more rewarding IMO.

Cerebral = Tedious

Just like with Scrappers, VEATs can be played mindlessly. Or a skilled player can leverage their gifts into things that are amazing.

With Kheldians, you have all this flash, and that flash isn't without substance, but there's a clear limit to what you can do. It's not interesting to me in the least, it's very limiting. More limiting than every other AT in the game.

Take form-shifting. Presented by many as a means for Khelds to perform the functions of several ATs. But those forms greatly reduce the tactical options of the player while in the form. Contrast that to, for example, a Shield Scrapper. If the fit hits the shan, a shield scrapper can easily move in to take the role of Tanker and protect his or her team. But doing so requires only a change in tactics. The Scrapper doesn't lose their melee damage role, they simply have another role to handle at the same time.

Actually, Controllers require more knowledge of play mechanics, and vastly better reward that knowledge when used.

Kheldians are OK. They aren't fail, but they aren't anything special either. Kheldians are great for folks who like their flashy "cool" powersets. But on straight effectiveness, they are middle of the road. Not the worst at anything, but not the best either.

I would also question your belief that Kheldian even require much knowledge of the play mechanics. Certainly not more than most ATs. Defenders and Controllers require more thought IMO. And that thought is greatly rewarded.

Good thing no one said that.

While I don't disagree with the general idea (a 30-35 SF), there's a couple of Ouro arcs in that range and now with Super-sidekicking you can just do a lower level TF for exp.

And isn't there like 7-9 contacts for that level range anyway?

I try to use as few as possible, but there might not be a choice here. Bah!!

Worse, I might actually have to plan out an efficient attack chain!