EvilGeko

One of these days, I'm going to have to run a team on test, so someone can show me why I would need for the above situation to happen in the majority of missions. Or if I did need it, why someone with repel or force bubble couldn't do this much easier, quicker and neater.

/ignore
turning off chat channels
/kick

There are many ways to tailor the game to your liking with respect to folk's language. And in a social game, this is at least as much of a "playstyle" choice as using KB.

Sure there is. Right now there's /kick or /leave team. An enhancer that changed KB to KD wouldn't add any new features to that list. All it would do is possibly give you more clarity on when to use the feature.

As is, someone doesn't use this enhancer, then you know. You know they value KB highly enough that you probably don't want to play with them. Or at least you need to educate them. It gives you some options.

Right now, the problem I have is that in game, I'm a hell of a lot more polite than I am on the boards. I have never /kicked someone and I don't even leave groups until it's clear it's not going to work out. Because, to be honest with you pro-KB folks, I have a lot more sympathy for the BAD PLAYER than I do for the person who "uses KB strategically." (I don't know if I can generate enough sarcasm for that statement) Bad players may not understand the mechanics, may not have the reflexes or ability to control KB. "Good KB players" tend to have an inflated view of the use of the effect and tend to just be wasting people's time. Thankfully Justice seems to have few folks who take KB heavy sets in either event.

With a anti-KB enhancer, I'll know right away if it's best to cut my losses. I can ask a person if they know about anti-KB enhancers. If they say no, I can strike up a discussion. Perhaps show them the benefit. If the person reacts angrily or expresses love of KB, then like adults, we can just choose to go our separate ways.

The control of KB remains with the player with the power, which I thought was your concern. While I wouldn't object to a team leader flag that eliminates KB either, I think a choice that the player makes is the better one.

I think that's a great point. I think KB's relative 'benefit' is so minor that many folks can find it objectionable, even where they wouldn't necessarily feel the same about other power conflicts (like the Ice Patch/Fire Cage example).

Sure you would...it's just where you would draw the line. I would be willing to bet that you would both practice and vociferously support the devs in allowing people to discriminate against those who like to swear like sailors, even going so far as to go around the filter with things like n a u g h t y words and such.

I'm willing to go out on a limb and say the following:

1) You will be able to buy the code for the expansion from the NCSoft store and Steam as well as other digital retailers.

2) A "Going Rogue" edition will be available that includes the whole client, plus probably some in-game swag.

3) The cost of the basic digital download and the basic box will be $39.99.

4) There will be a Collector's Edition which will include the whole client, the digital swag and some physical toy (figurine, map, coin, etc.). It will come in a big box (thus helping to destroy the earth) and cost between $59.99-64.99. If most of the additional swag is digital, there might be an option to download the code from NCSoft, Steam, et. al.

5) The marginal cost of the items in the Collector's Edition will be less than $5. But you will pay anyway!



How do I know this? I don't. These are just educated guesses based on industry benchmarks.

Close, but not exactly. Yes, both push mobs away from the caster (thankfully TAoE doesn't work like PBAoE's centered on the target), but TAoE then to have a larger range and it's harder for most folks to visualize which mobs are going to get knocked and where.

Whereas something like Energy Torrent projects outward from the caster in an expanding cone which is usually of shorter range and easier to visualize where the mobs will go because it makes sense that they would fly in that direction.

All the above, in my experience.

In my experience KB powers in order of annoyance:

PBAoE - "Solar Flare, how I hate thee"

TAoE - "Grrr...."

Cone - "Well, you can control it better I guess."

ST - "You're OK by me, so long as you leave my mob alone"

Incorrect, and I wonder if you've been actually reading my posts. I don't like KB. It's that simple. This is a recreational activity. I am not making a logical argument. I simply do not find KB fun.

I see no need to further argue whether it's effective or not. We simply don't agree on that point.

What is clear though is that some folks don't like KB, FOR WHATEVER REASON. No person is required to justify what they find fun. That's Arcana's game. She's argued for buffs to SR for five years based on math and supposed logic, but ultimately when you boil it all down, it's based on the normative foundation that a more balanced game is more fun.

The foundation of my argument is that KB is not fun. I recognize and have acknowledged that others disagree. Hell, I disagree with myself at times, being an bi-polar, insane personification of a malevolent lizard. But KB is not fun at times and I would like an option to reduce it.

Should that option cause discrimination against those who like KB, I see no cause for concern. If, as you state, most people don't care about KB, then this discrimination will not occur. If most people DO care about KB and want people to remove it, then the discrimination will occur and SHOULD occur. I'll give you an example to prove the point.

I do not allow smoking in my home. Period. The president of the United States could ask to come to my home for dinner, but if he wanted to smoke after dinner he can take his behind out of my house. Smoking is a behavior. I have no problems discriminating against people for behaviors. What I object to (and I do this for a living being an employment lawyer) is discriminating on the basis of characteristics that a person can't change or reflect the values we hold dear in our country (like religion).

KB doesn't qualify. So if there were a means to reduce KB to KD, I would not see it as problematic if there was rampant discrimination against continued use of KB.

The devs might. Hell, I suspect they do. They probably like KB. They like all that RP super-heroey stuff that wastes time and isn't efficient!

Prove what point? That EvilGeko is not being reasonable about KB? How is there a need to prove a point already conceded?

And "tarnishing" my name would only matter if I ever cared what people thought of my persona on the City of Heroes boards. I don't. Hell I picked my names in petulant anger at the former dev Geko. I've hardly been a model for maturity in my time here.

Of course. As well they should.

I really can't get over myself. I've tried, but you know, I get violent when I talk about leaving myself. When I went to the domestic violence shelter they said they couldn't help me. I think it's gender discrimination myself.

Let's say I'm in my groove, beating down a Lt. or a generic boss class mob. Things are going fine and I queue up Headsplitter. It doesn't go off because some blaster knocked the mobs away from me. Let's even say the Blaster killed the mob.

That annoys me. I didn't need, want or enjoy the KB. I don't want that chaos.

That's why choice is the only answer. It doesn't matter if it is beneficial or detrimental. Some people like it and some don't. More choice is better for all.

We don't have to be in the majority and that's not the reason I don't like KB. It's not efficiency. KB sucks. It's stupid and it annoys me on its own terms. It's a rubbish way to show Super-strength or kinetic energy. The best way would be if we could pick up a car and throw it at somebody. That would be cool. KB is just an overused secondary effect.

KB would be cool if it actually worked like it does in the comic. As in, it being such a powerful punch, blast, etc. that it knocks the opponent out completely. If KB was like a finishing move that you only saw once in awhile for dramatic effect then it would be cool.

But seeing mobs flying all over in every frikken spawn is annoying. It's annoying for the same reason that even the coolest animation can get grating after awhile. It's overused. I'll give you an example.

Anyone remember FF VIII. Well, when I bought the game you couldn't skip past the summon animation. The summon animations were awesome and all, but having to do them all the time made them very, very grating. It's the same with KB for me. It's the same with anything that supposedly looks "cool". After a while it's just annoying.

Taking this back to the game, I started my Peacebringer and took the KB powers willingly. And at first they were fun. Hell, sometimes when I've feeling silly I still will fly back to Atlas and Solar Flare a bunch of Hellions away.

My Ice/Energy Blaster has Power Thrust fully slotted out for KB and I will often slap lowbie mobs around for 10-15 min for giggles. Knockback can be fun, but sometimes you just want to frikken exp. Grind out some levels or merits and not have to have the mobs flailing away all over the place for no darn reason.

That like saying, "Do you see people being kicked from teams for not annoying their teammates." Of course not. That's implied and it's no argument for which side is more reasonable or unreasonable. And I would suggest that the answer is irrelevant. KB does annoy some players, this is a fact. The ability to choose to have this secondary effect in your game is already present. You can not roll Energy Blasters or Peacebringers or Storms and you can kick or not team with those with those powersets.

I suggest a less drastic option. Give people a choice. Even if that choice requires the sacrifice of a power slot. Then folks get to have another option. They can take Energy Blast because they like the graphical look of the set and the power progression, but not have to worry about their Energy Torrent getting them kicked from teams.

Idiot, we slap your various incarnations around for recreation and loot. What make you think you and your ugly azzed clockworks scares the EvilGeko?

If the mob was in mud pots, then they were hitting the Tanker, not any squishy players. The KB does no good in that instance, not that it ever does much.

Giving players the choice to change KB into KD, approaches being infinitely easier than solving any of the above problems. Actually since solving this issue is just hard, not impossible, while some of the above are impossible to solve, it probably is infinitely easier.

This argument is honestly irrelevant. It states that because in the grand scheme this isn't an important issue, we shouldn't care about it. Well, I got to tell you. I have a lot of caring in me. I'm a sensitive guy! I think I can do my civic duty and vote and be politically active and still argue vehemently to give folks a choice in whether KB enters into their gameplay experience.

So there.

No, I'm increasing the amount of time you get to have fun earning exp. Get it right!

It can be measure in annoyance. Which has always been my point. Not that you lose a few seconds.

I don't like having crap KB. I'll cop to what Ian derisively states. I don't want to have to hit W just because of some silly secondary effect I don't need. KB is annoying. It what I hate about my Peacebringer the most. I despise the secondary effect.

It's not a question of effectiveness.

I'M LAZY. There, I'll cop to it.

I'M AN EVIL MIN-MAXER WHO DOESN'T WANT MY KILLING SLOWED BY EVEN .01 OF A SECOND. There I'll cop to that too.

I'll cop to any silly put down you all want to throw at me about KB. I just don't like that secondary effect. I feel guilty playing my only character with excessive KB (the aforementioned PB). I leave teams with Stormies.

I just want a means to excise that terrible secondary effect from my game. I don't have any quarrel with folks who like to knock things all over the place. I won't be offended if you don't want to play with me. I play the following characters on Justice so you can be sure never to group with me:

Kyll, Little Frosty, Cute but Psycho, Solar Paladin, Fallen Princess, Shadow Nymph, Foxy Widow, Jungle Spider, Dao Knight, Radical Heat, Photon Flash (the PB), Warlord of Shadow, Floral Rage, Searing Solace, Biomecha (I hate when my robots KB too! Bastids), Poison-Pin, Flamewasp.

There. Please make a note. EvilGeko is an bad person who hates KB for completely selfish and illogical reasons.

But I still will argue for a choice to reduce this secondary effect to KD, because it would make me enjoy certain characters more and would lead to the just discrimination against those who knock mobs all over the place. It would lead to a cleansing where those who love KB are shunned. It would be glorious.


OK, I'm sorta kidding with that rant, but I still don't like KB.

Correct. Who the heck needs that crap! Hell, my Plant/Psi dom doesn't even use the AoE root, sleep or hold. Only the confuse as that increases the killin'. You're talking good sense here Ian!

Sigh...a boy can dream.

You say that like it would be a bad thing?

I wasn't contesting the point. I was just referencing your point.

Agreed. And why? Because KB is so gosh darn annoying. Thank you for making that point for me!

Interestingly, Iron Man too doesn't cause KB as much as you think he would given that he's probably the closest to an Energy Blaster in the game.

Storm, like the set she inspires, is the Queen of KB, no argument there.

Magneto uses his power like telekinetic heroes most times. He can cause KB, but is just as likely to hold someone in the air, crush them, etc. I think he's closest to a Gravity Controller in this game. Some KB, but also KU (which is lovely).

And Assault Rifles tend to have the ninja problem. In that:

One person using an assault rifle tends to be this ultimate badass whereas a horde of folks using assault rifles lose the ability to aim and most certainly aren't knocking anyone anywhere.

So I can see some KB in the earlier instance, but less in the latter. Since the latter is much more common, I think my point stands.

That's cool, but it's dodging the point. Because knocking things out of auras slows down the killing, which interferes with a Brute's playstyle. But since that point is irrefutable, you ignore it.

It's awesome?

Not sure who you're talking to, because Willpower is awesome with a side order of win.

I disagree...well sorta...err...a little bit...Jeez Bill, darnit, why do you have me agreeing with you! The only reason that I haven't disabled my reputation is that I don't even care enough to learn how.

Is that asking someone else to subjugate what they find fun?

How is what you wrote here materially different than:

"Any Blaster in this game knocking mobs all over the place is either some RP weirdo, or an idiot."


Parsing these purposefully inflammatory statements out:

1) Starts with marginalizing this to one AT;
2) Then minimizes a legitimate activity (measuring DPS or KB) that some find fun;
3) Presents a thinly veiled attack on another legitimate activity (soloing mobs intended for groups or roleplaying);
4) And ends with the naked attack you tried to soften with the preceding.

More proof that the pro-KB side is just as (not more necessarily) unreasonable as the anti-KB side.

I guess that's it then. I do read one of the Superman books, but for the most part I don't read a lot of the "100 ton+" SS character books.

I see a lot of pushing, shoving, tackling in comics. I think that's all getting conflated with KB. I very rarely see:

Assault Rifles cause AoE KB like they do in the game;
Concussive Blasts (e.g. Cyclops) cause KB as much as Energy Blast does;
Wolverine or Sabertooth causing KB with their claws as Shockwave does.

Even with superstrong characters, I'm much more like to see smashes and crunching than KB. For example, I was reading Uncanny X-Men recently and the X-men were fighting these mutant hunting things. They killed a few of them and used powers (SS, claws, Assault rifles) which cause KB in game but those powers did not in the book. Book was almost all fighting and while I saw monsters get smashed, didn't see any KB.

To be fair in the most recent New Mutants, Sunspot and Colossus were fighting some undead mutant that claimed to be immovable once his feet were planted (KB immunity Arcana?). He had KB Colossus just prior to saying that. Sunspot used his own super-strength to break up the ground under the enemy so Colossus could Knock him out (and back). So I guess that guy had Rooted!

My point is that I can read several comics and maybe one or two will feature KB as we see it in the game.

KB is so ubiquitous in CoH that it's a problem for folks. If every frikken level 1 Skull Lt. didn't have a Knock effect, people wouldn't so vehemently feel like they need knock protection. If there weren't multiple powers which rely on mobs staying nicely clumped around you (Invincibility, RttC, etc.) maybe meleers wouldn't care so much when the Energy blaster knock them out.

But to claim that it's only people that are too lazy to hit W, is just as stupid as saying "No KB." It ignores that meleers have to rely on positioning to do what they do in many offensive and defensive sets. There is no amount of "smart" use of KB that an Energy Blaster could use that would be better than an Ice Blaster's slows or a Fire Blaster's DoT damage. Sure there are exceptions to that statement, but they are so rare as to prove the rule.

I see this quite a lot in comics. Much more so than Knockback. If this is what Arcana is calling KB, then I guess so. But effects (punches, beams, etc.) doing KB is really as common as people make it out to be in my experience.

OK. I don't agree. Maybe we read different series.