Erratic

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But in this case, why should I listen to you?

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Because I copied over to the Test server and have played under the update?

It is possible for something to be possible but to have disincentives. Take smoking for example, its completely legal for you to do so. . .in the right places, after you pay the appropriately high taxes for so doing, with warning labels about its impact on your health.

Being able to solo probably isn't going to go away for any AT, but that doesn't mean that it won't be easier/faster to group.

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This is a pretty tricky problem (if it's a problem at all). The only solution I can think of is to degrade over time xp for SKs who aren't contributing. You can say that the SK has to prove themselves, or earn their keep...Healing/buffing a group member or a master would count as contributing. Of course, PL'd SKs will just throw in a buff or a heal here and there to offset this, but at least it requires some work on their part.

For anyone who knows programming this how it work...

1. Place a counter with the SK every time they contribute. Multiple contributions in a very short time don't count (i.e. casting 7 heals in 30 seconds)...
2. Slightly drop the counter over time.
3. If the counter = 0 then decrease xp over time

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Set a power to auto-cycle. You'll be continuously casting it. Whatever rate you're counting at will be fulfilled. If no power cast more often than X counts, then choose a long recycle time power that doesn't affect targets but validly could be useful to a group--like Accelerate Metabolism.

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I really wonder if anyone reads anymore?
It's established it does affect others. It's a MULTI-player game. Your game has to affect other players.

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I wonder if anyone thinks anymore? That's plainly silly.

What is going on in Brickstown has no impact on me when I'm in Atlas Park. . .and yet it it is a multiplayer game.

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If you get tired of broadcast spamming for Power levels, then your game has been affected.

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Oh geesh, one of those. . . .

Well you know, I have to put up with ugly costumes and stupid names too. Guess we should ban those too.

If you can't ignore your chat box you have major perceptual difficulties. If you can't manuever through areas with people coming and going, don't ever go near Back Alley Brawler or Ms. Liberty until you get a better computer and/or a better connection.

Talk about lame ways to show how you're impacted.

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However, judging from the thread, more agree with me than do not.

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With sick delight I note that is Argument By Appeal to Mass Belief.

You know at one point most people believed the world was flat too.

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I think at this point you are trolling and have ceased to argue any case at all.

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No trolling involved. Just pointing out more of your flawed argument technique.

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I did not say that most agree with my belief, I said they agree with my definition.

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Other's agreement with you has no meaning on the merit of your position. You can find people who subscribe to the idea that man has never visited the Moon too. And so what?

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You are slowing becoming more and more rude. Please refrain from being negative for negatives sake.

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Trust me, if I were being solely negative for negative's sake, you'd know it. How about you try to focus less on my style of posting and the matter at hand?

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As long as the person hanging in the back is in some danger from the mobs being fought I have no issue with it. You are taking the risk so should reap the rewards.

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There is no reason for them to be in any danger. Park yourself at the entry to a mission. Or even progress through the mission but take no actions to draw aggro and hang back out of aggro range. There are plenty of ways to "be along" and be almost as safe as standing at the tram station while friends street grind.

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But you are never going to convince me that the devs EVER intended for a player to deliberately be able to level up while AFK or otherwise taking zero risk to himself.

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I'm not trying to do so. The issue is why they should raise to attempting to deal with it when it (a) doesn't affect you or anyone else and (b) someone has to be doing the work somewhere.

I agree, I don't play that way. If I've got to be away from the keyboard for more than 5m, I drop group. But I don't have a problem with others doing so. They miss out on the game. Heck, I run my Scrapper's missions even though nothing in them is a challenge (if you want to talk about risk/reward--Dark/Inv is not challenged by anything a solo mission tosses his way) because I want the story arcs. If someone else wants to miss that, that's their loss in my book.

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However, judging from the thread, more agree with me than do not.

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With sick delight I note that is Argument By Appeal to Mass Belief.

You know at one point most people believed the world was flat too.

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Erratic, this is the third time in this thread alone you have gotten hung up on arguing semantics and definitions rather than focusing on the main thrust of the arguements. Hopefully this is not your only tactic to argue your case?

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Its not a tactic, its avoiding the fuzzy-think that some here apparently like to engage in.

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Well, some folks apparantly consider just grouping with high levels powerleveling, no matter if the lower level person is fighting alongside the higher level or not.

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The game was designed with such in mind, hence the sidekick system. If you're working at the general level of the group you're not getting xp notably faster than playing in a group of your level. There are of course tricks to the trade, like SK'ing to someone at the low end of the group, say SK'ing to the level 24 in a group that spans to level 28.

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Others define it as just when you team up thusly and leave the lower level parked in a safe place, going to hunt mobs that are no threat to the high level so the lower level gets scads of XP for just standing there.

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Its not the only definition I use, but it was the one that I have been referring to.

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Most folks are having issues with just the second category.

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Some folks anyway. Again, if you want to park yourself at the tram station I see little difference than going along and hanging at the rear ready to run at the drop of a hat. Why the one should be villified and the other be acceptable is strange to me.

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You can refer to one of my earlier posts if you like, however I'll do my best to repeat it now.

There is a loophole involving SKing and then the master joining a team while the SK is out of range. The SK gets much higher xp than is intended. I'm afraid I don't know the details. There are other such "loopholes".

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That isn't PL'ing, that is exploiting a loophole. Do refer to the title of the thread. I've got absolutely no problem with loophole exploiters having their loopholes closed (or for that matter being banned).

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A level 1 simply SKd to a level 40 is not power leveling. It's just laziness.


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Sorry, but that is using a special definition at odds with what most people understand power levelling to be. Heck, you don't even have to be outside the 8 level range. . .PL technically includes having a friend team you and you stand off somewhere else and do nothing to contribute to the earning of xps.

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The Dev team IS working to stop all exploits and power leveling cheats out there, the SK level range one being between them. The Devs obviously also think that is not right.

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Powerlevelling is as simple as sidekicking the target and having them follow at whatever range is allowed. There is no way to prevent such other than to mandate something like requiring every person to do a point of damage to get the xp reward, and that won't work given support ATs exist that validly aren't dealing a lick of damage.

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That is not power leveling. Is your whole arguement based on that belief? I hope not...

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Powerlevelling is doing no work to gain the reward. You care to offer another definition?

Ahhh, the beautiful appearance of:

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*** You are ignoring this user ***


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Its easy Lungorthar, if you're ignoring me, I'm definitely ignoring you and hence getting the above when you attempt to reply. Brings a spot of joy to my heart too.

Continue to reply if you will, but I'm not seeing it.

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uh ... yeah. i think that comparing PLing to e bay is pretty fair after playing or betaing in pretty much any and every mmorpg that i could get my hands on after richard "LB" garriot hooked me with UO.

because ... that's where all my stuff went when i got bored of it. sold on the e bay. and there is no better way to guarantee boredom than to be powerleveled.

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Boredom and Ebaying have nothing to do with each other.

I deleted Dark Age of Camelot and Shadowbane off my computer last week. Neither account was Ebayed. So much for that linkage.

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first, most powerleveled people look like idiots because they don't know how to use their character.

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Hmmm, I've played a Radiation/Electrical Defender and a Kinetics/Psychic one. How much that most of what I need to know about playing a Radiation/Psychic I already possess even though I've never played such a combination? Moreover, being PL'd doesn't say that the person never plays the character outside of being PL'd.

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Actually, let's not get rid of the link. The purpose of any message board is to discuss the issues at hand. In some cases, some of us will attempt to convince others that our opinions have some validity. If we fall into *known* fallacies, we are miscommunicating, either purposely or in ignorance, and basically wasting each others' time (except for comedic effect or fanboi/troll conversations.)

One of the reasons that discourse on the 'Net and in other media has become so shrill is that folks cannot distinguish between valid arguments and logical fallacies.

5 stars to the person who posted the link for helping to educate.

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I would rather have a message board alive in variety, and color of posts, than a sterile board where everyone follows those rules (not rules period, just those referred rules). Even if it means putting up with idiotic statements, exclamations, or whatever else. I accept and embrace imperfection.

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A fallacy is a fallacy. Period. You're basically saying, "I'd rather people speak nonsensically and not be challenged for doing so."

Btw, the link doesn't list rules for argument, it lists logical flaws in argument techniques.

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I accept and embrace imperfection.

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That says so much.

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The Dev team IS working to stop all exploits and power leveling cheats out there, the SK level range one being between them. The Devs obviously also think that is not right.

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Powerlevelling is as simple as sidekicking the target and having them follow at whatever range is allowed. There is no way to prevent such other than to mandate something like requiring every person to do a point of damage to get the xp reward, and that won't work given support ATs exist that validly aren't dealing a lick of damage.

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Game Theory requires at least two players who are in conflict. I didn't realize that CoH players were in conflict with each other.

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Two opponents.

A computer can be an opponent just as well as a player.


-np

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The computer is not an opponent as it operates under a different set of rules than you do. This is unlike playing a Chess computer which has the same pieces and same rules to work with as you do. The computer is providing a challenge, but it isn't trying to win. . .and a good thing too because it would pull out Hamidon and run him through the streets of Galaxy City and Atlas Park, something I'm sure that players in those zones wouldn't want.

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Er, wouldn't it be just as effective to just make multiple teams? I can't imagine the XP would roll in much differently. Bigger pieces of smaller pie vs smaller pieces of bigger pie.

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When the pairs are powerful enough smaller teams would not be as effective. Also the split isn't always down to 2 man teams. We once in Brickstown had 3 teams going--two 3-men teams and a 2-man team. The benefit of having 2 other streams of xp coming in outweighed the loss for being in a team of 8 as opposed to a team of 2 or 3. It was also healthier as if trouble occurred it didn't take much effort for the faster members of the various teams to zip to the aid of whatever team was having problems.

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Game theory states that in any competitive activity a reward must be balanced with risk to the subject obtaining the reward.

That isn't opinion, it's a constant of balanced game design. No reward without equal risk.

The ability to circumvent this process by insulating the rewardee from any risk is indicative of a bad mechanic in the system.

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Game Theory requires at least two players who are in conflict. I didn't realize that CoH players were in conflict with each other.

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buzz, wrong. I play to have fun, not to level. Take your self reflective opinions of envy elsewhere. Period. End of discussion.


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If you're playing to have fun, then why are you concerned with what others are doing?

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You are defending cheaters/exploiters, and you are accusing us of a sin? You should be in politics.

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No, I'm saying that you have no sound basis for calling them cheaters/exploiters other than your dislike for what they are doing. Do get with the program.

Not liking what they are doing is fine in my book. Its the name calling that has me otherwise engaged (because as noted, I really don't care about the matter).

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Who are you to determine what is legitimate? I believe that falls to the developers to determine.


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When it comes to my own beliefs, I am the ONLY person who determines it.

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Well then let me engage in a bit of self determining. . .

You're a whiner that is envious and I've determined it for myself as my belief. I'm going to state my belief, regardless of the facts of the matter in the same fashion you are (and indeed taking you as my lead), loudly in demands that others take it to be their own belief too and hence ignore you.

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No, people will recognize that your argument is poor and ignore it.


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I read some of that link you sent. If being ignored is the price I pay, then so be it. At least my arguement will be my own. Honestly, if I were in a debate club, or in a court room, I would pay much more careful attention to advice on arguing. However, on a message board about a video game? Come on. Get real!

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Well then if any technique is valid. . .SHE'S GOT COOTIES AND IS A NERD!!!!

Hopefully the ridiculousness of the two positions is obvious.

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The award isn't the issue at all. It's the method used to obtain it.

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Correction: The award is both the level advancement and the means of getting there.

Envy most assuredly does apply.

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Your caring and attempting to distinguish it as something bad are indicative of envy.

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Envy
1) A feeling of discontent and resentment aroused by and in conjunction with desire for the possessions or qualities of another.

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Discontent? Check.

Resentment? Check.

Desire for possessions or qualities of other? Hmmm. . .wants to play the game to get ahead but doesn't like that others get ahead doing so in a different manner that she qualifies as "easy". Check.

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Lets get something straight. I am not posting about people who get to 40 legitimately.

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Who are you to determine what is legitimate? I believe that falls to the developers to determine.

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While I appreciate the thought, there are no arguement police who will come and take me away for making what you believe is a poor arguement.

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No, people will recognize that your argument is poor and ignore it.

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If I am wasting your time then move on. If I am wasting my own time, then that is my business.

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Its not a waste of my time to point out why your argument is poor. It keeps people from agreeing with you. As to you wasting your time. . .feel free. I've got all day.

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Let me put it this way...I could care less if someone plays hardcore and gets to 40 in a few days. I DO care if they use what I consider a cheat/exploit to do so. So wrong again on the envy theory...

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Your caring and attempting to distinguish it as something bad are indicative of envy. If you didn't care, you wouldn't be posting about it.

Now I don't really care. I don't engage in the practice but I don't really have a problem with those who do so. They miss out on elements of the game that I enjoy.

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As for arguement techniques...I wasn't aware there were any, and I find the idea of it to be silly. They may have a place in a formal debate but not here.

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Here, let me help you out. As to not engaging in fallacious argument approaches, that has a place in any argument otherwise you're just wasting time.

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There is no envy involved in my opposition to PLing, so you can try and come up with a new theory. I oppose it just because it is wrong. Envy has nothing to do with it.

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Its not a theory, its an observation. Why are you upset? Because you didn't do it that way for whatever reason and you don't like that they got something you didn't. That is envy.

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Players are taking unintended short cuts, taking advantage of bugs, or outright exploiting/cheating. Anyone who thinks the later is wrong is wrong.

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That is known as argument by assertion and generally considered an invalid argument technique.

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Are you called Erratic because of your thought process?

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Are you so desperate to be right that you leap for personal attacks?

Purely rhetorical question that as the answer is obvious. I have better things to do than treat with trolls. Welcome to /ignore.