EnigmaBlack

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In the end, everyone is whiny except possibly defenders, who don't count because they largely get ignored.

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The only thing that is consistant in this game is the ignoring of defenders.

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I would much rather hear Cryptics explanation of our intended role and how they see us accomplishing it. Since we have obviously been wrong by their direction, I would really like for States and company to tell us what we are supposed to contribute to a team, and how that contribution stands out beyond all other AT's.

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Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.

Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.

I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...

Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster

We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.

End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.

Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.

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You honestly think they didn't know thier builds and they were that high in level? Or maybe defeats are more common because of ED?

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HA! Then I was correct with my quote!
*cuddles up near Manticore's leg and purrs*

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Dude that is so not hetero.

I was going to suggest this type of thread this morning when I saw half the threads were "congrats on 50". Also I am a bit jealous seeing people with so many 50s while I struggle to get my second one. It was like they are throwing it in my face, I was going to start a thread "Monday Morning Hatorade" but chose not to because all of those players I know from in game or on the boards and they are all cool.

DUDE!!! Freaking amazing!!! Someone should cough up a special prize for that!!!

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If a player is in a zone, did NO damage in a combat and has dead for more than a minute, he receives no XP.

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That's not a reasonable set of limitations to place on Defenders and Controllers (or even Tankers).

A Mind Controller might put the whole crowd of MoBs to sleep (doing no damage), and then get killed by the Boss who she failed to affect. By the time the team kills the boss a minute has elapsed and she gets no XP, even though she neutralized all of the minions for most of the fight.


As an Empathy Defender I might help my team survive for most of a long battle, then fall in combat withouit ever doing any damage. If I am down more than a minute I get no XP for the team's final success, even though my efforts kept them alive long enough to achieve it.

The damage requirement is very slanted toward the attack-oriented classes and insults the contributions of support classes.

I would be very irritated to see this set of parameters go live.

BB

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Non damage ATs are an after thought, it seems that that has always been the case here. Maybe they should think of craetive ways to reward ATs based on thier main function.

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There's a phrase that every dictator / ruler needs to learn...

The tighter you squeeze, the more that slips through your fingers.

The tighter they make the game restrictions on how we can play, the more likely it is that people will simply walk.

I have plenty of tolerance for my characters being adjusted, if I can be shown a definite need for the action. I don't see a need for this action even with the statements given thus far. This action doesn't address / accomplish their desired goals.

Earlier in this thread, I gave an outstanding idea on how to gut PLing via restricting the upper limit on a per mob basis of how much xp you can get. In a nutshell, cap earned xp per mob at character_level +4. That would mean a +4 mob and a +8 mob are worth the same thing... a +4 mob. That takes the heart right out of herd PLing because it's no longer the xp cow it once was.

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Hmmm it does seems as if Statesman is turning into a Tyrant. Mybe it's all part of an elaborate story arch of Statesman becoming a power hungry dictator who then becomes Tyrant. Or maybe Tyrant subjected him to something while he was captured.
OK now back to reality. The reality for me is the potential to harm non PLers far out weigh the rewards of the minor bump in the PLing road the current solution offers. I think it's time to go back to the drawing board on this one, but knowing the historical stubborness of the dev team it's unlikely that will happen.

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Why on Earth would anyone want to curb PLing?? What's wrong with letting people play the game how THEY want to???

Starting to sound like a virtual dictatorship to me...

This range changing idea sounds like a bad one IMO. If it ain't broke, don't try and fix it! Seems to me that people aren't playing how the creators would like them to, so they are changing the rules to force them to.

I'm a great believer in letting people do their own thing (it's what MMORPGs are all about!!) and get very annoyed by people trying to control that.

Of course, this is just my perception of the situation, so I'll happily be corrected with an assurance that this isn't the case at all!

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Hey I feel pretty much the same way you do, I just wanted to offer up a "better" solution to the borked up one that is currently on test.

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There are so many reasons why this is a bad idea, people have already posted why (me included). You will not stop PLers this way. The potental to harm normal players far out weigh the risk of curbing PLers.

The only way I can see to stop PLing is to put a cap on XP per hour. Find out the average XP a player makes per level per hour and make that the cap.

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Doesn't even have to be the average. Allow players to absorb experience at a rate that tops out at what a -good- player can do. Increase this rate when they're on a team. Gauge it at an exp gain rate that don't involve chain-killing purples 24/7 to get your experience. Give players the influence for anything done while the exp bar is choked full, if they keep at it.

Powerleveling is only possible because unlimited exp gain is written into the code. It is the keystone.

Exp absorption, once written into the game, is death to PLing-because the "optimal gain" no longer is one that's boosted past what one can get through exceptional play -at your own level- ,or at least the level you'd get participating actively in a team. Exploits have a barrier that fends off racking up 5 levels off the Hydra Trial in hours.

You want to mindlessly farm a mission for phat exp? Go for it. Once you hit the max, no more benefit. It'll be darn near impossible to do in normal play if you're setting the bar properly high enough.

Exp ranges are bandaiding the problem and causing normal play flow to be interfered with.

Heck, if totally choking off exp at the bar is too painful, make it a diminishing reward- like 10% normal exp if you're topped off. But the "gravy train" is what's the core of the problem here- you can get as much exp as you want, as long as people boost you to get past the normal level range by leaps and bounds.

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Thanks for adding on to the idea and helping it to take better shape. I honestly thought I would read feedback like "Worst. Idea. Ever" or "That sucks". Or even "Damn you for second guessing the devs, they are great and everything they do is great, quit CoH and leave us loyal happy players". Or something to that effect.

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If this is all to stop or curb PL'ing I can see may better ways to do it.

For example:

You can not receive XP if your combat level excedds your security level by X(2-3) levels.(Excess to debt and inf just like rsk) And when you train you have to visit an level approiate trainer.
1-5 Ms liberty or brawler(atlas or galaxy)
5-10 you can also visit the trainer in Kings.
10-15 add the trainers in steel and skyway
you get the idea.


How will this curb PL'ing?

The annoyance factor. PL'ing works becasue you can rack up multiple levels and then train them all at once and the higher level's don't have to go out of their way to let this happen. If you keep having to escort your SK back to atlas from tallos it will get annoying. I think this would provide a deterent.

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Genius, what a great idea, I give you the gift of stars!!!!

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I fail to see how this idea is superior at all. It certainly overlooks minor PLing (most PLing isn't from 1-30, I assume) and makes assumptions (don't we all) about what the major concerns with PLing are and certainly doesn't provide any deterrent to PLing by friends (recall friend, fly, recall friend, another three levels... no problem)... by the time they're at 14 they can fly themselves...

Also, I LIKE levelling up 2 and three and four times at once... especially if I'm just choosing enhancements, I usually dont' even go to the trainer, especially if I'm making good XP on missions... this penalizes me for absolutely NO reason and with NO logic...

On the other hand, for those who understand the rules, the XP Range punishes NO one but the person who is far away and lending nothing towards combat, and then it ONLY keeps XP away... not counters towards badges or missions or any such thing... ALL team members get credit for the defeat, just without XP or influence... which honestly makes sense, how am I getting rewarded when all I'm not fighting or even watching the fight?

The ONLY legitimate concern I've seen is that you get less XP than soloing if your team is out of range. The "it won't deter PLers" is illogical, it makes PLing more dangerous, of course it deters PLers...

And those who choose not to "buy" that PLing harms the game, well, I choose not to "buy" that you exist or I choose not to "buy" that you play CoH or any other lack of belief that has no affect on reality whatsoever.

And one more 'flamish' comment:

"Don't tell me how to play the game--If I want to be a tank mage, I should be able to! I pay 15 buck a month, dangit!"

That's all... happy gaming...

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You need more fiber in your diet.

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If this is all to stop or curb PL'ing I can see may better ways to do it.

For example:

You can not receive XP if your combat level excedds your security level by X(2-3) levels.(Excess to debt and inf just like rsk) And when you train you have to visit an level approiate trainer.
1-5 Ms liberty or brawler(atlas or galaxy)
5-10 you can also visit the trainer in Kings.
10-15 add the trainers in steel and skyway
you get the idea.


How will this curb PL'ing?

The annoyance factor. PL'ing works becasue you can rack up multiple levels and then train them all at once and the higher level's don't have to go out of their way to let this happen. If you keep having to escort your SK back to atlas from tallos it will get annoying. I think this would provide a deterent.

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Genius, what a great idea, I give you the gift of stars!!!!

There are so many reasons why this is a bad idea, people have already posted why (me included). You will not stop PLers this way. The potental to harm normal players far out weigh the risk of curbing PLers.

The only way I can see to stop PLing is to put a cap on XP per hour. Find out the average XP a player makes per level per hour and make that the cap.

/agreed

I would also like to see more ranks and the ability to assign specific resposibility to those ranks.

A SG bank/enhancement pool would be nice

And to reiterate more than 75 members, you're killing use here!

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As you say the changes mostly take effect in the 30s. I don't think it would effect controllers too much as thier pets do most of the work in the later part of the game.

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Don't mean to pick on this one too much, not all Controllers have pets, and they are not all equal in Damage per second either, I had a quick play on the test server and those Rikti Bosses sure were tough, but because of the 'controlling' factor in some aspect you are correct, it was still relatively risk-free, will just take a long time, would love to hear some experiences from a Mind/Grav/Ice Controller.

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True I guess when I first wrote my post I was thinking more of the fire and ill controllers. I almost forgot about Jack Frost and and the Earth turd pet. I guess I never see them around.

But as for Statesman, I think that update #3 HP increase directly negates the changes you made in update #2 as far as endurance costs for defenders/tankers

As you say the changes mostly take effect in the 30s. I don't think it would effect controllers too much as thier pets do most of the work in the later part of the game. The two ATs effected directly are defenders and tankers, while tanks may have the HPs to stay alive against the harder hitting mobs, defenders won't and only dark defenders have pets to get between them and mobs. Also update #2 saw an decrease in endurance costs for defender/tanker attacks. With an increase in mob HPs there was no re-adjustment in endurance costs. So as far as endurance goes these two ATs are back at square 1.

I would rather it be a mission type thing like the cape or effects missions. Let it be tough but something a solo hero can do, or you can do it in a team. I've been trying to find a team since level 38 to do the respec with I am now 46. The closet I came was a four man team yesterday then one player had to drop. Needless to say we couldn't complete it.

It's the Ghetto!!!

If that was the case maybe the Paragon PD should use him to train the weak azz cops that run around like vics all the time instead of putting him into the "neglected" part of town.

So what you're saying is that he is one the PP payrol but he is moonlighting as a superhero trainer? That has to be in some kind of violation of PP rules!

Ah ha! So Blue Steel is ilegally leveling heroes! Or you but a "non" official hero in the ghetto!!! What hapened, did his membership get revoked or his application get lost in the mail?

There was always something "different" about KR!

Yes Blue Steel is the guardian of KR or as I call it "Da Ghetto". In the other dimensions Ghetto's do not exist thus no "Ghetto Guardian"

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I'm a big fan of the harder missions, but I'm higher up on the scale than most of the pre-20's who are complaining... if they can tweak things to keep the frequent +1's for higher level players, I'd be happy... but I can see where lower level players (who wish to solo, especially) may be getting burned.
But yes, I also believe this is a bug... they are still developing their fix for late content being too easy... maybe that increased HP thing they keep mentioning.

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I'm level 41 and I hate the +1 bug. Minions and LT's to a degree aren't too much of an issue, it's the +1 level boss that you HAVE to defeat in order to finish a mission. For example +1 Carnie boss I already miss shots. She spawns a phantasm, the phantasm spawns a phantasm. She spawns three LT's then she phase shift repeadily while she attacks. So that's leave my lone level 41 defender against 6 level 42 enemies. This is the point where the game goes from being difficult to almost impossible, and I have 153K debt to prove it. Oh and before someone throws the classic line "get a another defender or controller or tanker" These guys aren't waiting on the self to be picked up.

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OMG I cant wait to drop any mission with an AV in it!!!!

Those wouldnt be so bad if you could could have more than 3 missions, but when you see your numbers of possible missions slot one by 1 drop because there is an AV in them it becomes painful.

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Same here, I have one mission with an AV in it and another mission that's defeat 45 Carnies in PI! WTF?! I'm level 40 so I cautiously sought out Carnies in PI, the lowest I could find where 41's. That's cool in small groups ike the first two minion 41 group I took care of. The next was like 43 (impossible for me so skipped it). The last group was 41's, a whole mixed bag Boss, LT's Minions. It was going good until I got held, my toggles dropped and the Phantasm along with the strongman put me away. After another hour of flying around PI looking for Carnies I gave up, I don't mind being defeated but I couldn't even find any!!!

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Sounds like the first Rikti invasion. Could that mean someone will have to do as Hero 1 did and venture to their homeworld to cut off the portal connections?

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I nominate you!!! lol j/k

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On the post about the purple patch - yes, if groups could street sweep higher level critters at a wider range, then sure, the issue would be resolved. Missions, however, would continue to be simple - and therefore worthless for XP.

On the "group penalty" myth - there is a NO penalty for groups. There is an XP bonus for every member you add to a group. BUT, the problem is that the more members you have in your group, the fewer areas there are that have a challenge big enough for you. So you can street sweep more effectively with 4 or less - because you can go into areas now that were designed for groups of 6 to 8, but aren't hard enough now. That larger group is left in limbo.

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But don't we start the vicious circle again? Because of the purple patch large groups can't fight anything worth the XP. Which means in essence you get penalized XP wise. I get 400 something per level 40 minion solo. A level 43 minion in a group of 4 would get me less than that. Grouping being easier than soloing is not always the case. In fact I die more often in a group than solo. As a matter of fact I haven't died solo since my late 20's and I'm 40 now.
So in essence it may not actually be a group penalty but it sure seems like it. I know you guys are going to work it out. The mission XP buff was a giant step in the right direction, just keep heading that way.

Shameless plug:
Oh yeah give us defenders more HP's we need to be everywhere in battle. We should be the true Medium HP/Medium Damage characters