Eldagore

Thanks!

It would look like I overshot a few things then. I would say if defender range base is .65, I would start this At at like .6 Scrapper crits dont count. I might be wrong, but corruptor scourge doesnt either.

Dmg cap 400% isnt too far off then if we include the base 100%. I think if I include base 100%, my gut feeling on fury would be off- I would then cut that in half to be 100%. So 100% base, 90% or so from enhancments, 100% from fury and then 100% or so left over for team buffs. But, I might be misunderstanding that concept yet. LOL, last time I really sat down and compared numbers I used brawl index. lol, remember those? Where does the time go....

I still dont know on HP. I guess as a start I would just lump in with the bunch at 1606. Testing with regen etc would have to be done to see if that needs to go up or down. I kind of think it might need to go up to 2000 or so to make reduced value regen still provide any kind of meaningful defenses. If this AT would be .55 or .6 of tank values for armor sets, a .55 regen set combined with 1606 HP cap might be pretty well neutered. I think this catagory would require the most tweaking to get right.

my memory is failing me on a few of these (working 10 hour days 7 days a week lately will do that) but....
Dmg, I dunno, .65 comes to mind. What are defenders? .7? I guess I envision it as just a smidge lower then that at base.


dmg cap.... is there a difference of with and without fury? Does brute fury actually go on top of the dmg cap? I know scrapper criticals dont count... thats a harder one to nail down without testing, but 400% was my gut feeling, but that would include fury as part of it. Something like, 90 or so % from enhancments, 200% from max fury, and that would leave 100% to gain from teams. This is based off my understanding that blasters are what, 800% cap? Or is that brutes..... lol like I said my memory fails me but that should be a rough guess. This AT wouldnt gain as much from team buffs as other AT's, thats part of what keeps it from outshining the others. Other more specialized AT can gain a lot more from team buffs.


Ranges is pretty easy, they would be half. 20' bitter ice blast, 40' on flares, 30' cones. This brings foes closer, so they will close in faster. low base values means enhancing range wouldnt be as effective as less durable AT's.

HP cap honestly I am not sure. it would really require some testing with the regen set, or willpower even to know. Certainly no where near melee AT's.

Resists.... cap would be like 40 or 50%. Dont remember the AT scalers off hand for defense. brutes/scrappers .8? tanks 1.0? I dont recall. if scrappers are .8 I would say this would get a .6 or .65. I see it as an /invuln could take fighting pool and approach the 40-50% cap for S/L similar to how brutes scrappers and tanks can approach their respective caps.

This is all very rough, and would need testing to show one way or another. I may be(probly am) wrong on the AT scaler numbers, but this should give a rough guess as a start point for base values and such.

Anybody feel free to jump in and correct my numbers! Like I said my memory is pretty foggy on those, havent had to crunch them for a long while.

I do not want the pick up truck.

metaphore tankmage hyperbole blather. Creative.

Actually I was thinking about this last night- granite could be a problem.

1.) I do not know if all animations would be possible in granite form. At least i do not know how a rock monster would have the dexterity in the hands to hold a bow and arrow or machine gun. this could be dealt with the same as melee sets- disable the ones that dont work.
2.) and more importantly, the balances to granite may be overcome to easily. brutes can deal with the -dmg with fury. Sure, granite brutes do less dmg then others, but I have never heard a granite brute complain about it. Fury can compensate for the -dmg quite handily.

The -rech would still work as intended i think.

The movement penalty. This would be a big issue, as ranged attacks negate this for the most part. Who cares if you cant get into range to punch the foe- you dont need to, you just shoot him.


So yeah, granite would need new penalties, or at least some of them replaced with others because of the nature of the AT.


I think sheilds could potentially be an animations problem too, though in this case AR and BR and archery would be disabled anyway as 2 handed weopons. I do not know the mechanics of shields animations to know if they would interfere with regular blasts though. I wouldnt think so as some of the animations can be found in epic pools, but I do not know for sure.

Anyway, as I thought about it, I decided rather then hold up the AT because of one power in one set, or animation issues, the At could be released without these sets available and then they could be proliferated later if the devs chose. That would allow them to put off the issues until more test time or more time to deal with the issues was available. Sort of like how energy melee got stuck down at the bottom of the list to proliferate to scrappers because of fears of critical energy transfer. Or how ninjitsu got bumped down because it would require new powers be added because of hide.

Ranged brute would be closer. No tankmage though.
Survivable close to scrapper/brute: somthing like that. But it would appear the arguments here stem from people that can not wrap their head around the idea of total survivability as a sum of components.

I do NOT want ranged attacks ON TOP OF brute and scrapper armor levels. The range would be A PART OF, or if you want it more simply IN PLACE OF SOME OF the armor values. The devs have been saying range is defense for 7 years. It should not be an issue then to take an armor set and reduce it by the appropriate amount to accomodate this "range is defense" value.
Brutes do good dmg. not at first though. In fact, at first they do really pathetic dmg. it ramps up from fury. where does fury come from? Some from attacking, but that only gets you so far. the really good dmg output comes from relatively high fury, which really only comes from putting yourself in a high risk situation. So, RISK=REWARD. This AT wouldnt deviate from that.

All this tankmage blather is really just hyperbole and strawman garbage.

I will reply to this line of thought one last time.

Defender/corruptor buff and debuff sets are not balanced based soley on what they do for that particular characters dmg output. And also, the dmg output of those AT's is not balanced soley on what can be done for that character with the buff and debuff sets.

buff and debuff sets are balanced based on what they can do for a team. Defender dmg and corruptor dmg is also balanced with team buff AND personal dmg output in mind. It is not as black and white as everyone here makes it out to be.

buff and debuff sets are really the tank mage sets. Look what a team of defenders or corruptors can do with a slew of force multipliers. Look at the results of some of the super teams that have been put together. The repeat offenders, I think the largest SG in the game(or it used to be anyway if it isnt anymore) was founded on that very idea.

1 defender is not a tank mage. it's not even all that powerful. 8 defenders= breaks the game difficulty. This is why direct comparisons of dmg output between blasters/corruptors/defenders fails to grasp the entire scope of balance.

Nah.

Caps would be in place and modifiers set to prevent tank magery. Besides, if someone spent billions on a IO build for this AT it wouldnt be any different then any other AT with money thrown at it. This was pointed out earlier by others.

Min/Max would actually play something else, as the something else would be able to achieve higher values of whatever they are after. blasters would do more dmg, the other ranged AT have team buffs and force multipliers, and the melee AT's would be a lot more durable. This AT would hardly become the farmer's choice. Min/Max is all about lvl 50 maximum powah!! builds. A IO purple blaster is going to better then this AT in terms of dmg, and at least be equal in survivability if not surpass this AT.

The point of this AT is not lvl 50 MAXIMUM POWAH!! but more lvl 1-50 on SO's and lucky drops. If someone took this AT and MAXIMUM POWAH'd it, they would likely run into the HP cap, the Res cap or both. Team buffs would easily put this AT at the dmg cap, well before other pure ranged or pure melee AT. And def soft cap is a moot point because you can do that on anything already.

If I did not feel there was room for this AT in between the ones we already have, I would not have suggested it or put this much effort into the discussion for it.

This made me lol

Domination is not a gimmick. Neither are fury, criticals, or scourge. I never said they were. in fact fury is part of my proposal. I did say domination is a mechanic i am not particularily fond of. Positioning, or more precisely, kiting and hover blasting, or simply running away and shooting at foes chasing you are gimmicks, and are accepted forms of play for the current ranged AT's. I do not want to have to hover blast etc all the time to use ranged sets.
"Positioning is an inherent necessity for using ranged attacks, or any attack really. "
Not really. Sure you need to get in range but thats hardly positioning. And you dont need to position for a ranged attack, thats the whole point. they work just as well from max range or from 5 feet. Do scrappers need to move 20 feet every time they use focus?
Team sets are hardly just as useful solo. Parts of them are, some more then others. Many do not offer a whole lot to a solo player. Those sets are balanced around team play, so i do not expect them to offer a solo player that much utility. if you mean solo utility in the sense that you can still use them to slot IO sets, then they are no different then picking power pools for set mules.

Of course the foes could close to melee faster, thats why i proposed reducing range. Its also how one would keep balance on the AT, you know, because the character would have traditional defenses to survive in melee. Maintaining distance is still possible, but I explain the effects of that in my OP. it just would not be mandatory anymore to survive a fight against minions.
As for stepping on toes, i will refer you to the dichotomy of defender and corruptor. When cov beta came around, and even a bit after, scourge was adjusted to give corruptors a difeerent feel then defenders. Otherwise, what is the difference? Answer: scourge and AT modifiers. What is the difference in my proposed AT? Answer: Fury and AT modifiers.

I also like Proliferation. In fact i cant wait to roll an Ice Melee scrapper...some day.
I also want this AT.
I also want more options for Jet boots
I would also like some robot wings/jet pack/binders/etc so I do not have to choose between feathers or dragon wings or nothing for a robot character.
I would like some new mastermind pet sets.

there are a lot of things i and many others would like. prioritizing them is somthing the devs and marketing will have to figure out.

Yay! Flea gets it!!

Please do not put words in my mouth. if I wanted a tank mage I could make one of several with IO's and incarnate powers etc in game. If I wanted a tank mage I would not have proposed several limitations to both primary and secondary in my OP.

it is only obtuse in that everyone making comments here is assuming I do not know about all the suggested AT's and powersets already, that i havent tried them out once or thrice. I apreciate the community opinions and feedback, but I did not make a "which At/power combo for xxxxx" thread, I am suggesting a whole new AT.

You have fianally given your opinion on it, namely you would rather see something else first. I respect your opinion, but disagree with it as I think the payoff in terms of sheer number of character concepts to be had for the required developer time is a real bargain. I also feel many posters here have discounted just how different an AT like this would play compared to what we already have.