Durakken
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Posts
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Quote:No.Originally Posted by Shadow State
Not exactly sure I'd call it close to Bermuda given that the Rogue isles are 20 to 50 miles off the U.S. coastline while Bermuda is 570 miles.
"the Rogue Isles are a small chain of islands NW of Bermuda that run in a band 50 to 20 miles off the US coast"
You somehow read this as The Rogue Isles are 50-20 miles off the coast of america.
What it ACTUALLY says is that the Rogue Isles are further out than Bermuda which lies 570 miles out at the western edge of the Sargasso Sea.
I don't know what they mean by band, but I think they mean circle.
And I'm pretty sure the 50-20 miles refers to the area that is the Rogue Isles.
I'm pretty sure that the sentence would be better constructed as such...
"the Rogue Isles are a small chain of islands NW of Bermuda off the US coast that run in a band 50 to 20 miles"
Either way, they mean they stretch in 20-570+ mile long chain... or they have an area that is between 20-50 miles in area 570+ miles out. -
Quote:How do you get that...Originally Posted by LISAR
It lists Devs and Game as primary sources and extra items as secondary source.
Since Dev posts and in game are equal any newer dev post will trump game.
So Dev -> Game -> other.
from this...
Quote:The game itself is always the primary source of canon. -
/h should be set to the help channel
The tab thing should be fixed...
but /help should be the help menu
this isn't a suggestion it's a bug they've felt like ignoring ^.^ -
Quote:Because i keep forgetting that thread is there. Regardless it says exactly what I've said and I'm betting they still think I'm wrong.Originally Posted by Shadow State
Why would you have to look through hero-con footage? From Canon Fodder: Official CoH Lore Q&A.
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yeah this isn't meant to be competing. It's just for getting the facts straight in the most consise form possible. And not having to worry about mechanics and such. The reason I don't know about linking to Paragonwiki for arcs and such is simply a consistency and linking issue is all ^.^
And formatting of various pages is part of the reason paragon wiki is quite a bit annoying to look for information on. like Statesman info is at the bottom of his page while Recluse's is on the right side of the page at the top. That could easily lead to missing that info because of that. -
v.v That is not how it works. And I have explained this to you several times. What i have said is what the devs have said.
You keep ignoring or miscromprehending this. So either you are doing it on purpose or you have a problem. As such it's obvious continue to reply to you is a waste of time. So I'm done replying to you. -
Quote:the people who formed oranbega were from North Africa/Mediteranean area. going across to america fits this description.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Ermeeth is said to have fled and formed the City of Oranbega in North America, contradicting Akharist's account of the Oranbegans themselves having fled "under one sea and across another.
The Rogue Isles are near Bermuda. This area is all still called the mid-atlantic as well as being called the sargasso sea.Quote:It also lists Hequat as creating the nation of Mu in the mid atlantic, when it's pretty clear the islands of the Mu, which are today's Rogue Isles (hence all the Mu ruins) are pretty much close to the US coastline.
Creating a separate city-state = Creating a nation. Whether it's an island or not.Quote:Furthermore, the "nation of Mu" was not created, nor did Hequat actually set out to create a separate nation. What she created was a sect within Oranbegan society which intended to force her will via revolt, as led by Mu'Rakhamet.
The only reason the islands of the Mu existed was because the Oranbegans drove the Mu out into the sea, assuming they'd have gone home, only to later turn out Hequat pulled them an island out of the sea.
They aren't contradictory. You just have a problem with the english language.Quote:I'd honestly stick to Akharist's writings and scroll translations than one lady's opinion on the matter. Specifically, since we have two other "experts" on magic both providing similar stories, both contradicting each other AND Azuria at the same time. I'm talking about Virgil Tarikoss and War Witch. -
Quote:You are really starting to piss me off.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Then let me contradict you. What a developer says very much IS canon unless stated otherwise by another developer. It's their game, they make the rules.
For instance, Manticore went out of his way to set down canon explanations that weren't in the game, yet those count as canon, too.
Or, for that matter, Paragon Times articles, which are not part of the game, have not been put in the game, yet that doesn't seem to stop you from treating them like canon, even when they contradict in-game infomation.
read.
What ever is IN the game IS CANON. Only the game can call into question anything with in it. ANY OTHER SOURCE that contradicts the game IS NOT CANON
Whatever is ON the OFFICIAL SITE IS CANON. Only the Game and Site can call into question anything with it. The Game takes precedence when there is a contradiction. Anything else contradicting the site makes that source not canon.
Whatever a dev says IS CANON. Only the Game, Site, and devs can call into question anything they says. When there is a contradiction The game, then the site takes precedence. Any other source that contradicts is not canon.
The comics and books seem to flip flop which way their heirarchy goes.
So when a DEV says something that contradicts THE GAME. It is not canon.
When a DEV changes something IN THE GAME. It is canon.
What do you not get?
This is very simple and has been stated as such by the devs. -
Here's the thing, Samuel, the arcs don't flat out tell you the full history. You need to procur it from several sources. Each source adds more information. Sometimes they are not about the thing your looking up information about, but still has the information.
Hequat being put in charge by Teilekku is from Azuria's Paragon Times interview. Nothing contradicts this and it makes sense since Teilekku was apparently the leader of the gods so there is no reason to dismiss it and further it is what I call T2 canon. (posted on the site officially and has not been contradicted in any way)
Same with a number of other things. This is partially why everything on CityofLore.com is being cited and sourced as much as i can. -
Quote:...Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I'm sorry, but everything that developers put in the game IS canon, even if it contradicts older stuff and makes no sense. It's not very GOOD canon, but its canon all the same.
Comprehension, you need it.
A developer PUTTING something in the game is stuff IN THE GAME and IS CANON.
a developer STATING something about game lore IS NOT CANON when it contradicts.
You are not contradicting what I am saying. You are failing to comprehend what is being said, viewing it as wrong, and saying the exact same thing that was formerly said. -
Quote:Lughebu is hardly ever mentioned from what I can see. It seems when they mention him it's "oh and their leader was..." he apparently wasn't even the one that discovered the "better" way of procuring power.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Wait... "Those three" being the three arcs you mentioned? But they don't talk about Lughebu at all. They deal with the Oranbegans and possibly Hequat. Are you saying that the information on Lughebu and Ermeeth is in them? Huh...
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"According to Dr. Cheng, the Scroll of Tielekku tells the story of a prehistoric war between two pantheons of gods: a great alliance of man's first gods and a coalition of twisted gods who fed on death. It goes on to tell of how the goddess Tielekku first harnessed the power of magic, taught it to other gods and mortals, and used her power to trick and defeat the evil pantheon, banishing them to the spirit world. The scroll gives instructions for contacting Tielekku herself, should the pantheon she banished ever return to trouble the living world. Finally, it warns that this knowledge must never fall into the Banished Pantheon's hands, for they could use it to trap Tielekku and devour her. "
It seems to me that if we take this and add it to other parts... Teilekku learned magic before the Banished Pantheon event, became the leader of the alliance of "good pantheons" before, and also it seems to be that canabalism and death is a great way to get psychic energies and such which would fit with the rest of what has been said. Consumption also likely had energy increasing effects...
so it seems to me that because of the shortening of what azuria was talking about, the translation, and the sparse information makes the information mixed up a bit, but not too hard to figure out. -
Decorum, How so? I just showed the sources and how it works. The only thing I don't have is the exact quote of how canon works according to the devs sourced for you. But I could if I felt like looking through herocon footage.
LISAR, yes and no. developers stating something that contradicts information in the game is not canon.Only when a dev says something that isn't contradicted it is considered canon... however, when a dev says something, it contradicts, and then the game changes, the dev was still wrong at the time, however the information is now right at present.
That is why newer information takes precedence over older information when all things are equal. -
Teilekku is assumed to be the leader of the faction that put down the Banished Pantheon, but it is not mentioned anywhere as far as I know save for it seems the rough translation of the scroll of Teilekku which obviously mixes up the the war between the Worship god and the Fear gods and the war between Hequat serving as Teilekku's general and Ermeeth.
Each of those 3, along with Azuria's Paragon Times interview, all support each other and the timeline stated. They all have pieces to what happened but not the full story. -
Quote:You will not spontaneously teleport to another location. That has a higher chance fo happening.Originally Posted by Decorum
What it isn't, though, is enough to say it will not happen.
You will not win the lottery. That has an even higher chance of happening.
You will not be hit by lightning. That has an even higher chance of happening.
You will not die in a car accident. That has an even higher chance of happening.
We're using practical language. Not scientific or philosophic language. -
Quote:Samuel. understanding that when I say that something is idiotic to say isn't saying that YOU are an idiot. It's a matter of grasping the language and what it means. Generally what happens when you say something is idiotic to someone who gets that what happens is they ask "what do you mean" or "how so" if the explanation of why isn't already given.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
So, you're saying that you've told people "That's an idiotic thing to say!" and they've had a sudden epiphany and understood their wrongness and embraced the truth of your position? I have a hard time imagining that, because "that's idiotic" is not an argument that's very epiphany-enduing. If anything, it's actually counter-productive because it has a higher chance of entrenching people in their position, even if that position may actually be wrong.
Then again, judging by your posts, tact is not one of your strong points.
Let me try to give an example...
Let's say you say that a house is on fire and I run over and see that it's not, but you claim it's engulfed in an inferno. I ask "what's the deal?" and you say "It's on fire, but you can't see it" Not only is that insane, that's idiotic. "What do you mean?" If the house was on fire, even if I couldn't see it I could feel the flames. I could see the house being damaged. I could hear the crackling. I could see the smoke. The likely hood of the house being on fire and me not sensing these things would be nearly 0. Most people would say it's impossible, but that's a talk on gnosticism vs agnosticism, and let's not go there. The proper response to this line of thinking is "Yeah, it is idiotic to say a house that shows no signs of being on fire is"
If I were to say, "What you have just said is genius." You would not assume that I am calling you a genius in the sense that you have a 140+ IQ. You would assume you had a good idea. It's the same thing with "That's idiotic" That's not a smart thing to say. It's not "you're not smart".
People tend to externalize the positive and internalize the negative. There is a good reason for this, but it doesn't make it any less wrong and in the practice of discussion and debate one should never internalize something like that. Especially considering that all parties involved may feel the exact same way about an idea but took up that side of the argument for the benefit of seeing where it leads. -
Venture,
You are mistaken about the Maria Jenkins and Monica Richter thing. Not about what happened, but how it works from a canon point of view...
Tier 1 = top tier = Always right
game said - Maria Jenkins is Maiden Justice <- T1 canon
Dev said - Monica Richter is Maiden Justice <- T3 canon
At this point the Dev was wrong. Monica Richter was not Maiden Justice.
The game was changed and now...
game said - Monica Richter is Maiden justice <- T1 canon
After that point it is canon.
If the game says different things about the same thing.
Rule 1 - Consider how it's presented (this includes tiers of canonicity)
Rule 2 - How many sources support each side? whichever has more sources is generally right.
Rule 3 - If all things are equal, the newest source is always correct.
It's pretty simple. That's how the devs have either directly said canon works or have implied it through directly talking about how canon works.
As far as the infinity of infinities. That is properly used...
It is infinitely unlikely that someone will write the same billion digit number as someone else at any point in their life.
It is infinitely unlikely that if such an event occurs it be at the same time as another person.
The way it would be expressed mathematically i think is x^x where x = infinity.
And there is still yet another problem... it's actually an infinity of infinities of infinities because we're not talking about this just happening one time we're talking about it happening multiple times over... and it's even worse because we're talking about it happening one after another which is
So we're talking about something infinitely unlikely happening multiple times in the exact same order at the exact same time in a string...
So I think the exponent for that is written x^x^x^x where x = infinity. In other words the chances of something like that happening is... well I don't know but it is lower than .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000001 and that's enough for me to say that will likely never happen. -
Quote:No what i said is like saying Stephen Hawking is an authoritative source concerning astrophysics.Originally Posted by Furio
No...she can't be. Maybe as far as our characters are concerned, she's studied the nature of things to the limits of her capabilities, but she could still be wrong. That's like saying that Stephen Hawking *knows* the nature of the universe. But we're on the other side of the screen. We can ask the creators. We have the lore section of this website. That's an authoritative source.
You are arguing that because we didn't get it from a dev it's not 100% even though the friggin devs says what they say isn't what is 100% but rather that the game itself takes precedence and not only the game but the site, both take precedence over anything a dev says.
That means If a Dev says something that is contradictory to what Azuria is saying in the game or on the site the DEV is wrong. -
CityofLore.com is up and running ^.^ woot
Now to get a good logo banner... -
Quote:It does when I'm talking to people who actually understand the sentence.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Has that ever worked?
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Quote:Originally Posted by Venture
*headdesk* *headdesk*
No in-universe character is "an authoritative source of information". Characters can be mistaken about things they believe. They can lie. They can be Nemesis Automatons. It is an ooooolllllddddd GMing trick to only give the players information about the world through NPCs precisely so that any or all of it can be contradicted later if desired.
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Do you mean the claim that the box is thousands of years old? If that is false then the entire point in contention is false.
That is just an idiotic thing to say. Especially considering how the devs act in character and out of character randomly so you never know where the information is coming from.
Also Azuria IS an authoritative source. She "may" have her own agenda. That's true. Do you think I'm not taking that into account when I say that she is an authoritative source? -
After reading over the important parts and browsing over the both of those arcs you mentioned Samuel...
I think that someone got that messed up. There are something like at least 3 other sources that disagree with that and the source for that is from a character is a translator and not an authority on magic history.
There are 3 solutions...
They purposely messed it up and the in-game character didn't read it properly, but got a rough translation which is why it is semi accurate semi not. This is also something that often happens and would have happened in this case.
The dev that wrote it up got it wrong.
The other 3 sources are wrong other 3 are...
Game: Magus Mu'Drakhan - Nerva Archipelago (1658, 166, 3170) - The Secret of the Circle
Game: Diviner Maros - Sharkhead Isle (-1336, 0, -758) - The Cult of the Shaper
Game: Cadao Kestrel - Founders' Falls (1594, -16, 925) - The Envoy of Shadows -
First off, I have got nearly the entire Oranbega part done save for referencing and a few more lines in the last section...
http://www.fbsavanguard.org/wiki/Mul...Earth/Timeline
Why does it say something different than ParagonWiki's version? Because ParagonWiki's version for at least that section is obviously mistaken. Nothing to do with the person, but rather the writing explaining it is somewhat confusing in how it is said. Breaking it down sentence by sentence and action by action makes it a lot easier to see what happened...
Gods came about and needed worship so allied with humans.
1 pantheon learned a different method, which the other gods felt was bad so they were banished...
So with this we have the set-up of 2 factions... The Worship gods and the Fear gods (Banished Pantheon)
Next we have a goddess, Teilekku, discovers magic and teach it to the other gods, until this point they used their "divine" abilities, not magic.
Ermeeth and Hequat were apparently both prized students and lovers. Ermeeth however felt that humans should be taught magic so they don't have to worship the gods any more. He is either stupid, figured out a different way to get sustenance, or that wasn't his intent by teaching magic.
Teilekku gathers her forces and put Hequat in charge to go deal with Ermeeth and the Humans that have learned magic from him. Ermeeth is beaten and flees with his followers to establish Oranbega.
So here we have the establishment of a Top god (Teilekku) and 2 factions Ermeeth and Teilekku (who is not mentioned beyond this point) who passes the responsibility onto Hequat. So within the realm of gods what we have is 3 factions:
Ermeeth: Good -> Tielekku's Faction: Gray <- Banished Pantheon: Evil
We also have the move from where they were from (Mediteranean/North Africa) to a new location (the US).
Next we have the construction of Oranbega and peace. Hequat learns of it's location, incites a rebellion which is exiled. These exiles flee to the Mid Atlantic where Hequat raise an Island which is the Coralax's home... They win and Construct Mu.... and then in a few hundred years they attack Oranbega...
So now we have 3 factions of humans now as well...
Non magic humans: good -> Oranbega: good -> Mu: evil
When the Mu attack the press the Oranbegans into a corner and Ermeeth doesn't help but a Demon Prince does and the Oranbegans decimate the Mu, but show mercy... however the Demons figured this would happen and set the contract up so there would be consequences...That being lose of physical body for all oranbegans.
So... We now have 4 factions of the other Planes fighting against each other with only 1, who is mysteriously absent, being the only real good guy in this whole situation. We also have "spirits" of Oranbegans wandering about and several Mu running around and breeding with non magic users...
IN the whole thing Teilekku is absolved of all her wrong doing while Ermeeth is oddly absent. The good Oranbegans are shown to be only good on the surface and when ush came to shove they'd rely on a demon rather than a god and the Mu go on to create magic users who are proud to be on the side of oppressors. It seems the only group that left unscathed from this brief history are the Demons.
Also I forgot all about that there was a real Oranbega myth... If we were to speculate out Atlantis was according to myth concurrent and warred with Mu or was after Mu... and according to various other myths current humans are the 7th generation of humans so Oranbega = 4 Mu = 5 Atlantis = 6 current = 7. If you were to add before Oranbega, the Virtea, and the Coralax that would give us 7 generations.
Also a correction Atlantis was/wasn't orignally brought up by Plato. He presents it as something like a a friend of a guy went to egypt and got the story from them and told him who was relating the tale when plato overheard it. There is some evidence to back this up but it's been a while since I last read up on atlantis. -
The only dead thing we have is human souls and banished pantheon. All other things from various planes are all alive.
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Quote:... Azuria is an authoritative source of information.Originally Posted by Venture
*headdesk*
An ongoing series' backstory is always a work in progress in the sense that new details are likely to be added at any time, but if established facts are not "feature locked" then yes, nothing is canon because everything is subject to change without notice.
Cimerora is set somewhere shortly after 475 CE, which is when Romulus Augustulus stepped down as the last emperor of Rome. "The Box" in WoA is said to have been around for thousands of years prior to that.
The reference to gods as evolved nature spirits is something an in-fiction character said, and thus is not authoritative. It's just what Azuria thinks.
I find it amazing you accept "what a character" said from a non-authorative character in a book you said has points that contradict, but then won't accept what is in canon and also from a much higher source of canon.