Durakken

Well the real question is, What would you consider what tier so we have to work out criteria...

We also have to divide by Brand because, let's be honest, even the top Marvel characters aren't the same level as top DC characters nor are Image characters at the same level of Marvel, let alone DC.

I would say something like this...

Tier 1:
> a) Name Recognition
> b) Does or has successfully carried their own title well (Teams that are can't be split up fit in here, but teams that are put together just because don't for example Fantastic 4 can't be split up, but X-Men and JLA can be so F4 could be consider t1 as a group.)
> c) The basic origin is well known
> d) The basic personality is well known
> e) General powers known

Tier 2:
> a) Name Recognition
> b) Does or has carried their own title well (Teams that are can't be split up fit in here, but teams that are put together just because don't for example Fantastic 4 can't be split up, but X-Men and JLA can be so F4 could be consider t2 as a group.)
> c) The basic origin is known by people who read comics
> d) The basic personality is known by people who read comics
> e) General powers known by people who read comics

Tier 3:
> a) Name Recognition
> b) General powers known

Tier 4:
> a) General powers or Names is recognized but nothing else and usually not both powers and names are known.


t1:
Superman
Batman
Wonder Woman
Robin I (Dick Grayson)
Wolverine
Fantastic Four
Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)

t2:
Robin III (Tim Drake)
Aquaman
Green Arrow

The basic difference between t1 and t2 is that the general populous aren't as informed about them for some reason, but they are in terms of quality and level equal properties in comic fandom.

t3:
Kilowog
Firestorm


t4:
Saturn Girl
Most of the Legionaires...they are just cheap with their name.


I think there should be a t5 probably and I'm probably missing something...

There are a few times we see Batman and Superman throw down...

The Dark Knight Returns. Neither are in great condition and Superman wants Batman to back down, not to kill him. Batman tries to force Batman to make that decision...Sometime in the middle of it Superman does recognize what the plan is to some degree and puts on the play. Superman wins, though it was the plan.

I don't know what the set up was but Batman and Superman fights in the White House. Not sure how much is a show and how much isn't, but Batman more or less trick Superman into having to slow down or not being able to do everything he can due to historical and national value of the things around him as well as lead lining of the walls and such. They do this to get their hands on the Kryptonite ring Luthor had and more or less it is insinuated that the whole thing is taken as a game to them. Batman wins. but it was the plan.

In HUSH i believe Poison Ivy gets Superman in his control and it's indicated that Supes holds back, but how much is unknown, due to Supes trying to fight the effects. Batman wins by making Superman break the effect. Draw, the effect is broken.

In the latest issue of Superman Batman they two kids talk about it and they listen in... In the end Batman says that it's close to "the" plan, but we all know Batman has multiple plans for every situation... the battle does end in a Draw, both die in the scenario.



Now... the thing with Superman and Batman is that Superman is more or less unwilling to go all the way while Batman is AND you don't know what Batman has planned while Superman you know he has a limited number of things he is going to do. It is possible that Batman has some sort of "Superman Termination" programming built into his suit where he doesn't need to actually survive, but rather just have it trigger due recognizing Superman attacking Batman. After all Batman would see it as If Superman went rogue, to the point he just killed Batman, meaning Supes gave up his morals, it is more important stop Superman at all costs than it is to worry about surviving...Obviously he'd want to survive, but he'd have something to go into effect just in case.

Also you have to realize that with Batman's training he'd be able to predict within a range of events of "if this happens what will it cause." He also has reflexive and faster muscles than normal. So lets say Superman is on the Opposite side of the planet, and New Earth is 4x as big as earth (probably about right for DCU)...and Superman is as fast as light... Batman would have 1/2 a second to react to react to an event that would make Superman go rogue. I know i can hit any where around my body in 1/16 of a second. Batman would likely be at least double as fast as me so 1/32 of second...He'd be able to activate the device 16 times in that situation. So Superman can get 16 times closer before Batman can't react based on Superman's distance alone.

This means Batman will defeat Superman if he knows Superman is going to attack him and Superman is 2500 kilometers away... which in terms of New Earth is roughly if you take the top edge of state of California... the coast to the border of Utah.

However since we know Superman is generally in Metropolis and Batman in Gotham... he has likely 1/25 of that time considering they have to be within 100 km of each other.

So Batman has 1/800 of a second to react in most situations...which is obviously a problem just considering distance and ability to move. However we also know that Batman likely always has an eye on Superman, he likely would react before Superman started to act, and there is no reason to believe that Batman doesn't incorporate some of the Speed Force technology into his suit so it could be that Batman could even the playing field within that amount of time and it really depends on how fast Superman realizes to go after Batman and how fast Batman realizes that Superman has gone rogue.

So despite on the surface it seems obvious that Superman wins the best that would likely happen is a draw

And that is more to do with the fact that Batman isn't gambling like many people think, but rather taking calculated risks and planning around it. That long with immense amount of training allows him to go toe to toe with Superman....that and practically the resources of the most advanced cultures in the Universe... and the respect of and/or hatred of the most powerful beings in the DCU, Spectre, the Entity, Superman, The New Gods.

And lets not forget that if one wanted to they could say that "worship" is something that fuels gods...and we know that Batman, particularly Bruce Wayne inspired the Bat People to worship him as the bat and if we take that to it's logical extent of him being the inspiration and worship of all Bat myths then he should be as powerful as any of the gods ^.^ And the whole "destroying" of Darkseid could elevate him in terms of conceptual powers within the universe...

The problem with a lot of times is that it's that people think dodging bullets means dodging bullets. When you dodge a bullet or a lazer you are not dodging the actual bullet or the light. You are seeing where barrel is pointed at and dodging away from that before the gun is ever fired.

And likewise a lot of things look like they are more damaging than they would be to a person because a lot of people aren't trained in how to take a blow. That's why if you take 2 equally strong people, 1 trained and 1 untrained, the untrained can be taken out with a punch that would hardly phase the trained one.

That is not to say however, like pointed out above a person hitting concrete could every break it... The area size of a human body precludes it from hitting concrete at any force without dieing and breaking the concrete...And i mean the whole body. Obviously a punch can break concrete. Less area, more pressure per square inch so it's possible with a fist. with a body we know a terminal velocity human will just splatter the ground and not even make a dent.

Could Batman do it though? I don't know the specs but there is credibility to the ability to do it. See the way the bat suit's armor works is that the ceramics cause the energy of a bullet to spread out and thus do less or no damage to the wearer. How effective it is in dissipate the energy that would be enough to break concrete is clearly outside of our ceramic armor ability, but who knows, Batman might have more effective ceramics. Depending on how effective determines how many times he could have it happen. I would say in his normal gear Batman can't survive more than a single concrete breaking full body hit if that. But considering there are other energy field techs at his disposal, who knows.

I am Perfect.

Scientifically speaking I am the only result of the machinations of the universe that lead to me existing as I am. While i may grow and change that does not mean that the present me could be any better than I currently am and as such I am unquestioningly perfect.

Theologically speaking if you believing in a perfect god and an omnipotent god then that god could do nothing but make perfect beings. Even a "flawed" being would still be perfectly crafted into being perfectly flawed and further with the power of an omnipotent god I could never go against its will and thus anything I would do would have to be according to its will which is perfect which makes me perfect.


Now as to your comment back to mine.

It's uncreative. Not only is it uncreative but you are using a hack story as a basis. Yes, Star Wars is uncreative and a hack story. Why would you ever use it for the basis of anything.

Theologically it shows a lack of understanding of the subject matter and is insulting in saying that, that the judeo-christian god somehow came first when it is demonstrably based on a jealous backlash of Babylonian civilization and then just assimilated other religions into itself, but even when they were snaking their way into other religions they at least had the intelligence to say that Zeus = El and Genesis happened after Ragnarök.

It's just purely wrong scientifically or sci-fi-ishly and philosophically for reasons not going into.


Also I realize this is an attempt to say "hey guys what do you think about this idea?!" thread, but it should have been quickly stopped when you started listing off christianity. As much as it is unfair and asinine to say talking Thor is ok, but El is not because one has billions of believers and the other has a few hundred that probably don't read this site. It's mainly to keep you safe from looking like an idiot, me calling you an idiot, and all out flames from people you have offended that take what you just said as blasphemy.



and btw...this all comes from a guy who is working on a story where the god of the bible, El, is a vampire and a rapist that has been cloned and came from another planet. So if you think I'm taking offense to the fact that its' religious...boy you sure don't want to go there.

Here's a palette cleanser...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PT90dAA49Q

This is incredibly offensive on so many levels creatively, mythologically, scientifically, and philosophically... please run far away before someone finds it necessary to make you listen to ICP's "Miracles" on continuous loop for a month.

she's nekomimi Azu... she needs no more reason than that to grow cat ear!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkXIu...eature=related

Click the link...become addicted to the song!

interesting juxtaposition (i used a big word woot!) when just a few days there was that whole "these masked people are dangerous"

the problem with Slade is not that he is old, it's that he's a fat old dude. Slade is supposed to be fit always...

Also you guys are a bit mistaken with what happened to Slade... His powers are not a result of a super-soldier experiment. They are the result of an experimental surgery that had a reaction with his biology creating his super soldier like abilities. They have since tried to replicate the results, but have so far but unsuccessful.

So basically they didn't go out of their way to give him powers, they just happened to, and they don't know how it happened.

never mind... found a good and easy to follow list ^.^

What's the best reading order for the following collections of Blackest Night

Blackest Night 0-8
Green Lantern Blackest Night issues (43-52)
Green Lantern Corps Blackest Night issues (39-46)
Batman: Blackest Night 1-3

I understand that they all more or less happen at the same time, but any suggestion on how to go about reading them? I don't want to go back and forth too much between the various titles and the comicvine ordering is a mess at best with so many tie ins.

Should I read them straight through or should I read them going from title to title? Or should i follow one for a bit then another... and if it's straight through what order are the collections best read it... the GLC issues, with 10 issues would seem best from a numbers stand point.

the problem with most character creators out there in my opinion is that they care too much about a character fact that in the end noone looks at. in the future it might be cool and for certain games definitely worth it, but in most MMOs it is largely a waste.

A hack publisher is publishing a game developed by a hack game developer based on hack fantasy which ripped off a hack novel. That seems promising to me.

i wonder how long till the fan boys realize i called their precious bad again.

why did the suit come from his chest and no the ring? That's stupid...

the desaad, granny, and godfrey scene was overly hamfisted...

Teri Hatcher as Lois' mom...another tie-in to previous versions is a nice touch