Doctor Vivian

I was not a part of the original conversation thread, I only read it in passing. Perhaps I saw all of the lulz and mistakenly took that for the primary thrust of the effort. I'll happily grant that. But -- while perhaps this is not a place for it, if this has all arisen out of the desire to destroy INF, (a) why not do it via the toon-deletion method rather than the Prestige? (b) What makes the Prestige conversion better than the toon deletion one? And (c) will the SG's that are created and built up with the Prestige conversion of hundreds of billions of Influence be "burned" in turn and deleted once they have hit the Top-100 on their respective servers?

While the motivations you ascribe to the leaders of this effort may be pure (and I am willing to grant that they may be), those who take advantage of them to hop on the Crazy 88 wagon and get boosted for a ride to the top of the Top-100 may not be in the same league -- if for no other reason than the different reasons you mention above.

If the goal was to in turn "burn" (delete) all of the "Crazy 88" SGs once they had had their run and hit the top of the Top-100 list, I would wholeheartedly applaud and support the effort. If, however, they are going to linger there and be a reminder of the event every time I look at the Top-100, I'll naturally be less enthusiastic -- just because of what it means to me.

Yet I will never say this is not within your rights to do -- only that I personally don't like it, for all the reasons I've stated before.

-- Vivian

I did not mean to imply this was an exploit, or any violation of the rules.

I meant it was something irregular -- i.e., outside of the way it's normally done.

I myself don't like it for the reasons stated earlier, but that's just my opinion.

I rarely try to put my own opinions on others, I only try to explain my point of view.

-- Vivian

Ouch. Doesn't sound like a fun SG to be in.

I agree completely with you -- it is much more fun to generate Prestige by having fun while playing the game!

While I would love to imagine Jack and his original design crew had the level of wisdom and insight, not to mention Economic chops, to foresee how the game's economy would shift and ebb over the course of years, especially following the introduction of things like Mission Architect, I really don't believe they did.

The fact that prices are set by players means nothing. Perpetually, prices follow "market price" -- i.e., "what the market will bear". The presence of massive inflation in the game dictates that each unit of INF is continually worth less each day. A crafted Armageddon selling for 50-70 Million a few years ago now sells for 10x that. Influence has dropped 90% in value just on that index alone.

If the players controlled the economy, this would never have happened. Who would want a 10x increase in costs?

I understand your position, Seebs. I really do. I just ask that you also try and understand mine. I'll try and explain it a bit more clearly.

While I am not a roleplayer, if we were to consider them being at one end of the spectrum and then, at the other end, players to whom everything is simply points on a chart, I would fall somewhere on the former side.

You see, I see the work in building the SG over the last few years as a labor of love. I see the friends that I have in it, and the things we have done, as being of value. And I have come to see our Rank on the Top-100 List as being representative of our communal success -- and from the years of conversations I have had with other SG folks in the Top-10 SGs, I do not think I am alone in this way of looking at things.

So when I say that I find (in my opinion) someone forcibly bulling their way into the upper ranks of the Top-100 through a system of buying Prestige as opposed to going the normal route "disheartening" or "improper", I'm just being honest.

It's just how I (me, my opinion only) feel about it. It's not just numbers on a chart to me.

I agree completely -- I think Prestige should never be purchased with Influence.

In my opinion, Prestige should come on its own, as a natural by-product of the things you do as a SuperGroup. Only this way is a SG's Prestige representative of what they have accomplished in the world.

The exchange rate, in my opinion, should have been changed during Issue 13's Base Repricing, to keep pace with the current "value" of each INF point.

It's an interesting theory but if that was their intent, it failed. The exchange rate was far too steep. Similarly, when the Base Repricing in Issue 13 went into effect, by not changing the Exchange Rate, they made it suddenly extremely affordable to purchase almost anything Base-related using Influence.

A single toon is not a SuperGroup -- even two Toons are only a Duo. It makes sense to me that a single toon would not be able to afford the largest kind of base. If they were to try, they would pour all their money into it when that money (in my opinion) would be better spent getting them well-Setted.

Given that it wasn't working as an INF sink when it was implemented (due to the disparity of value), and given that they never changed it, it may never have been regarded as a primary INF sink by the Developers. This is all just speculation, of course, but given that they've changed prices dramatically before (during Issue 13 and also the market merger), they could have, and would have, changed the Exchange rate at any time, if they wanted to.

Well, Base Raids and the Top-100 List definitely encouraged competition. But during the first 13 issues of this game I would never have considered using Influence to jump up in the ranks. It just wasn't feasible. Only lately, with such huge sums coming ever-more-readily to hand, is such a thing possible.

I agree that had this been in place from the beginning, and the mindset been to not only get Prestige from your daily fun but also to sell back Influence gains and get extra Prestige, I myself would have probably had no objection to it.

Nor I, but I doubt we will ever get such a thing since most of the original design Team has moved on to other projects and companies.

Oh -- believe me -- I know. We had a fully Raid-Ready base, heavily equipped and fortified, and I was paying that rent on it each month. Larger plot sizes had rent up to 600,000 Prestige per billing cycle! A major SG with a lot of active members can maintain that, but no one else could. Now, almost anyone can have the "largest plot size". It's become a joke.

Well, the Rent prices were HIGH, and with the conversion rate also being so inequitable, if you couldn't handle the Prestige upkeep, you likely weren't going to be able to pay for it with Influence. I remember many a base that wound up closed down, power off, nothing working on our early Coalition lists, as their SG members slowly bailed to other, working SGs...

Thank you, Seebs. I'm always polite, it's the only way to be! *hug*

-- Vivian

If you read the post more carefully, you will see that I was referring to the single-man-SG's efforts, not that of all of the individuals who have contributed to this process across all servers.

I am quite relaxed about it. More, I suspect, than you are.

I was answering the question of someone who was asking my opinion on the matter. My opinion (which clearly differs from yours, but that is perfectly okay) is that I regard a single-man-SG that buys all its Prestige to reach the #1 spot as illegitimate.

The word "illegitimate" in this context means "departing from the regular".

(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illegitimate)

I'm not sure why anyone (yourself included) would argue that this process -- buying your way to Rank #1 on the Top-100 list -- is a departure from the regular process of getting there. It seems pretty obvious that it is.

-- Vivian

Oh, rest assured that I did try to look at it that way.

I tried to believe the rosy concept that this was all being done to just help everyone, but given (a) the extensive and clear intent to do this to cause a ruckus on Virtue, and (b) the existence of other ways to dispose of INF without causing anyone any grief, I doubt any reasonable person would take it as written without a large grain of salt..

Dear me, I never meant to insult anyone by pointing out the facts. How dreadfully rude of me. I withdraw it all! Perish the thought that anyone take offense at what they are doing. Oh -- wait -- I did take offense. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. But my insult matters little, if anything -- all you're concerned about is that I don't offend in return by pointing out the fallacies inherent in the assumption that this is really for everyone's good.

You are quite correct. If somehow I gained the ability to see everything your way, I am certain we would be in happy agreement on all things. But of course, the reverse is true as well.

At the end of the day we can happily agree to disagree, as intelligent folks do on occasion.

You think it's okay, and I think it's not.

I'm not railing, campaigning or crusading against it. It is what it is.

On the flip side, where I'm not interjecting in threads where it's being promoted, you are actively pushing for it, by repeatedly posting in this thread how you think my opinion is wrong. Had someone not asked my opinion on the matter, I would never have voiced it.

Ah, that explains why you're so upset. You're one of the people that's actively doing it.

What I think you don't get is that it's perfectly okay, Seebs, for you and I to disagree. You think it's funny! I think it isn't.

We can happily disagree on this underlying issue all day long. I don't feel hurt that we disagree, and I'll just as happily team and have fun with you online as if we had never voiced our differences here.

Seebs, if someone asks me my opinion, I will give it.

If you re-read my post, you will see that I was not referring to, and did not name or accuse you of anything -- indeed, I was only referring to the person who was doing this on Guardian, who is not you. There is no need for you to jump up and down like this and feel accused, set upon, upset, etc.

I am sorry that my opinion on the matter has upset you, as it was certainly not my intent. I could, perhaps, understand your reaction if I was posting in the threads where you had started all of this (which I read, but did not participate), but I did not. You are coming to my thread.

-- Vivian

Hi Seebs, good to hear from you.

I am not telling them these people to NOT do what they are doing -- for example, I am not sending them tells, PMs, or in any way trying to stop them from having fun whatever way they like. Nor do I harbor any resentment. They are more than welcome to do as they please. However, if someone asks my opinion about it (which we are all entitled to), I personally feel that it is an improper thing to do.

You can also reach Level 50 by door-sitting in AE mishes. Is that toon any less "Level 50" than another Level 50? No. It's accumulated XP is it's accumulated XP, and it came from door sitting, not punching dudes. But -- that is not my point. It is not the Prestige alone but the manner in which it is gained -- and thus, what it represents.

Regulating the game economy is the job of the Developers on the Maintenance Team, not a SuperGroup of Players in the game.

That aside, there are ways to dump INF without affecting anything, one of which I explained in an earlier message, which is to put it on toons and delete them. Doing it this way -- in my opinion -- cheapens and demeans the efforts of all those who have labored for years to rise on the Top-100 List in the fashion intended by the Developers when the INF --> Prestige system was implemented.

If you think back to the time period when this exchange system was implemented, 100 Million Influence was a tremendous amount of money. Indeed, most purples like Armageddon would rarely go for 70 Million in price. The exchange rate of 1,000 Influence for 2 Prestige was seen as so not-worth-it that few availed themselves of it unless they were SO CLOSE to that next item for their base that they could make the difference up with Influence.

Unfortunately, although the game's economy has been undergoing extensive inflation due to some of the massive Influence fountains like AE over the past few years, this exchange rate never changed. In my opinion, really, it should have. But since it did not change, the once-terrible exchange rate now became laughable -- and single-man SGs can literally buy their way to the top of the Top-100 list.

Don't you think that's at odds with the original intent of the Influence to Prestige exchange system as it was first implemented by the Devs?

-- Vivian

PS: My own opinion on the matter is my own opinion, not that of any other.

Regrettably, I cannot look at it that way.

If they really wished to just take excess INF out of the system, they need only e-mail however many billions they like to themselves or a friend, make a toon, claim 2 billion at a time, then delete that toon.

Wash, rinse, repeat, flushing 2 billion each time down the bit bucket.

On the other hand, I can only see the jumping up of single-man SGs to high ranks on multiple servers through the contribution of tens of billions of INF across the servers by third parties as self-aggrandizement or as a deliberate attempt to stir up drama amongst those who find it offensive, such as on Virtue (as has been publically posted elsewhere in the forums).

The idea "I'm really doing this to help everyone" is disingenuous, at best.

-- Vivian

Fortunately there's plenty of time until January 8th!

-- Vivian

Thank you, Gypsy!

-- Vivian

Actually, someone is already working his way up the ranks that way (i.e., buying Prestige, not earning it). At the time of this writing, this one-man-SG (who has taken the name of the Crazy 88s) is Rank 6 in just 3 months' time.

However, dumping Influence at the SG Registrar's desk is wholly at odds with what Prestige is intended to represent -- or, at least that's how our SG regards it. It is misuse of the Influence conversion system intended to help small SGs get over the hump to get that next piece of equipment, new plot size or base room.

So, even if that kind of person was to someday take the #1 slot through this continued practice (however briefly, as we continue generating Prestige every day through our constant activity, whereas a one-man SG needs to perpetually buy, buy, buy it), it would in no way diminish the pride of those of us who have worked to achieve it the proper way.

That is the essence of this celebration -- to take pride in what we have accomplished over the course of these last five (almost six) years. Just read our history, and you'll see what I mean (http://www.earthclanelite.com/history.html).

We reached this point without buying Prestige, and so we have arrived at this joyous day fantastically wealthy, with excellently-setted Toons. The over 10 Billion of Inf for the Event was cheerfully donated by our loyal, active SG members. We are happy to share our success and wealth in this Event.

If ever we chose to take that route -- and actually waste precious Inf by converting it to Prestige -- we could dump so many tens of Billions down the rabbit hole that they could never keep up.

But we would never do that -- it's not our way. We love to compete, but only with SGs that are legitimate.

-- Vivian

Thank you, Azure!

As anyone who has worked to build a large SG knows, there are challenges.

Challenges that can tear SGs apart from the inside -- and have done so -- time and time again.

We overcame these issues by maintaining a solid, written set of Rules & Regs.

Having something like that to follow, that governed every aspect of the SG, really helped.

The rest was just making it super fun -- more fun to be a part of, than to ever want to be apart.

If anyone's interested, there is a "History" page on the SG Web Site (www.earthclanelite.com).

It speaks to how we grew from very humble beginnings to being the #1 SG on Guardian.

The SG's Rules & Regulations are also there on the Web Site, if you're curious!

-- Vivian

1 PM (Post-Meridian) Pacific Time, as on the event flyer.

Which is 21:00:00 Saturday January 8, 2011, in the GMT Time Zone.

-- Vivian

After diligently striving for six years and building a core of some of the best and brightest Heroes and Heroines in all of CoX, we have reached the #1 spot.

I would like to think that everyone would happily celebrate this triumph with us.

-- Vivian

Someone was saying something about addictive subliminals, but that's ridiculous.

It's just such an awesome film. In fact, I'm going to see it again tonight!

-- Vivian

I think that the real incentive for many participants is not the prizes (which, of course, are all very nice), but rather the chance to have a piece of their own effort become an actual part of the City. Something that they can point to, grin and say, "I did that!"

-- Vivian

It is the exact number of pixels that the image (texture) that you submit should be.

1024 pixels x 768 pixels.

-- Vivian