Dispari

The thing is, we're comparing Invader (get a bunch of exploration badges in mayhems) to the equivalent blueside, which is Task Force Commander. Maybe stopping to do mayhems is inconvenient, but is it more inconvenient than doing six entire task forces? TFs aren't something you can "get a hold of" and do of "your own power later on." Most of the TFs aren't something you can do during your hour before starting an ITF. And they're definitely a pain in the behind to obtain.

I don't think Invader is the best implementation of an accolade. It can be a bother sometimes. I have about 20 redside toons so I have something in just about every range, and a lot of friends, who can help me get the badges. But even if I had to stand around in zones asking for people to invite me, it'd still be far more convenient than doing six entire task forces.

Like I said, Force of Nature is an annoying badge to get redside. But its equivalent is Geas of the Kind Ones, which requires no less than three things that are IMPOSSIBLE to do without a team. Everything in Force of Nature can be done without a team, even if it takes a while. Geas also requires over 1600 kills on enemies that only exist in one zone. Over 300 of which only come out at night. Then there's the 2 GMs, Sally (twice), and a task force.

Hero Slayer isn't even that hard anymore. The real painful ones are 1000 PPD and 10 arsons (and only because it's buggy). You only need 25 "heroes" to get Hero Slayer, and if you do one LRSF (for Marshall) and have done your other 10 mayhems, you should have Hero Slayer already. That's without fighting even one other hero through your entire career, which is unlikely. Back when Hero Slayer was 100 kills, you might've had a point.

All the accolades save Marshall I would say are easier redside. Atlas is easier than Marshall. Demonic Aura is FAR easier than Eye of the Magus. Geas of the Kind Ones/Force of Nature is about even, because both are grindy and require a bunch of crap. But I'd still give the point to FoN because it doesn't force you to team.

My last high level Dom had BU. My new one is Plant/Earth. I don't miss BU at all. I can still one-shot minions and annihilate lieutenants. What's more, Plant packs a punch with damage as well, and Earth packs some mez. I can hold bosses in about 2 seconds even outside of Domination thanks to Seismic Smash. I also get random AoE stuns. I can Power Boost when Domination is down to get super-long mezzes. Then throw down Creepers to do damage while I crunch badguys. The two combined have really high mez and really high damage. Really wild toon. I'm looking forward to adding Soul Drain to all that!

There are classes that do it all though, so people who want to do it all can. But we also have niche classes that people can pick from.

Some people here seem to want classes that do everything. Some people here just want classes that do one thing so we have to team. But we have some of each, so there's something for everybody. There's no need to rebalance Defenders so they can fight. We have support ATs that can fight. Soon enough you'll be able to play them on whichever side you want. Defenders are there for people who don't care if they can fight or not, because they want to be totally rockin' on buffs/debuffs.

Firstly, I'm not trying to "win," I'm trying to understand. And it's not a "problem" so much as me comparing my concept to yours. Personally, If I was to make a "fire mage," my first thought would be Dominator. Because in my concept of mage, the person would want to have all sorts of spells and abilities, and the only thing a Blaster can do is cause harm. Dominators can do so much more. I like Blasters, but if we're talking concept, Dom makes so much more sense to me.

I disagree that Doms aren't damage-centric. Castle even said he was worried about suggesting the Dom change because the numbers he was suggesting would basically mean that Doms have two primaries. Secondaries are usually built to be weaker and to augment the primary, but in the case of Dominators, they have the highest base damage of any toon you can make redside. If that makes them "not damage dealers," I don't what to say.

Per Castle, they have "two primaries" now, and their main focus is to mez AND to do damage. My Plant Dom tends to use about 2 mez powers and then goes right into laying down the hurt from that point on. I'm not sure how everyone plays Dominators, or how people think Dominators are "supposed" to be played, but if I spent more time mezzing than dealing damage, I would feel extremely useless, and probably would be.

How long ago did you play Dominators? Because my Doms are definitely damage dealers.

I will admit (and think I already did) that I'd rather earn the Atlas Medallion than Marshall. If that was an option, there'd be a whopping one thing (unless I'm forgetting something) that you'd have to team for to get accolades redside, compared to at least 10 blueside. I can't say how hard it is to form a villain team to do stuff on various servers, but I'd be willing to bet you could form one villain team of 6-8 people to kill Scapyard once before you could complete 7 task forces and kill the GMs blueside.

Though if it's just coming down to personal taste of "I don't want to solo them," that's a totally different argument than ease of attaining. I tend to solo through most of it fairly quickly, possibly teaming for cold demons and Family bosses (usually with 1-3 friends tops).

And... I have a great VG, great SG, good global channels, and a lot of friends. So I have no issues getting people together for Scrapyard or LRSF, even if I have to schedule a night for it (can't usually do a PUG LRSF).

The only things you need a team for are to do the LRSF and to fight Scrapyard. In comparison there are several things you need a team for blueside. 3 GMs, 13 AVs, 7 TFs... That's at least 10 teams just for the GMs and TFs.

I can't speak for every server, but I have a nice VG full of people who are happy to help kill Scrapyard. LRSF is less frequent, which is why it's the only one I'd do blueside.

Can I have your stuff?

Even when the overwhelming majority of foes don't just fold under a hit of damage and will persist and bother you? Many of which can easily kill you if you don't do something about them, and some of which can mez you if you don't mez them first? It seems like a mage would bring more than just damage (your example states fire, and fire does NOTHING else) to a fight. After all, if damage isn't working... well, you can't do anything else. You aren't taking other abilities 5th, you're taking them... never. Unless you count a single target hold from an epic with a long recharge.

I think the concept of a mage fits Doms better than Blasters. All Blasters can do is deal damage, while Doms can do all sorts of creative things.

Anyway, there's one secondary with BU, one secondary with Aim, and one secondary with Fiery Embrace. And the only one really lacking in AoEs is Energy, unless you're counting nukes.

I seriously don't get this. Who keeps insisting this? Why do people think it's still true?

Villain accolades require less GMs, less AVs, less task forces, and less kills. CoH requires 7 task forces, 13 AVs, 3 GMs (or more, I forget, but it's at least 3), and more kills. Not only that, the kills are on insanely irritating things like Sorcerers and decoys.

I've earned every single villain accolade at least twice. All the HP/end ones can be earned in just a few hours (I have the full set of HP/end on 5 toons). I've never once earned Eye of the Magus or Task Force Commander, and Portal Jockey only once. You'd be hard-pressed to earn Task Force Commander in any reasonable amount of time. And enjoy doing 6 TFs that are just 10+ kill-alls of the same gang in a row. On every character.

The only annoying one redside is Force of Nature since it requires so many kills of Longbow and PPD, and the arson badge is buggy. But considering the blueside equivalent is Geas which requires over 1600 kills on enemies that only exist in one zone, a TF, and 2 GMs, I'd say that's about even. And the only one I'd say is easier or faster on a hero is Atlas Medallion. And only because you have to get a team of 8 to do half of the LRSF to get Marshall.

If GR lets me mix-and-match for accolades, I'll be getting EVERY accolade except Atlas redside.

I've heard that Blaster + Tanker is a pretty good combo. The Tanker is durable enough so as to not need much support (if any). And he can hold all the aggro to keep the Blaster safe, who can sit in back and decimate as much as he wants. It should play out similar to the Brute + Corruptor duo.

I pretty much disagree here.

I plan to take Controllers, Blasters, and Scrappers over to redside. But I also plan on taking Doms, Brutes, and Masterminds over to blueside. I don't care about "base stats" or "gimmicky inherents," all I really care about is how the toon performs on average.

As far as lacking solid damage -- a Blaster has 1.125 range and 1.00 melee. They also get a highly-gimmicky inherent which rewards them for fast attack chains. Like Brutes. Nobody would argue that Blasters are among the highest damage dealers. But...

Even if you discount Brutes (which if you're in combat at all, unless you're among people who are sapping all the aggro, should have at least 50%-80% Fury and be doing fantastic damage), there are several redside ATs that do great damage right out of the gate.

Stalkers and VEATs all do 1.00 damage. Stalkers will also get at least a 10% crit rate. Even without inherents, both Stalkers and VEATs are doing quite good on sustained damage. No gimmicks or hoops needed, they just flat out do 1.00. Granted Stalkers aren't usually that sought after for teams, because of their lack of AoE (in my opinion at least). But VEATs are always a good choice.

Doms also have 0.95 range and 1.05 melee, averaging out to somewhere around 1.00 depending on how range or how melee heavy your secondary is. I tend to consider Doms the Blasters of redside, because they're squishy and high on the damage. I have a Plant/Earth Dom I play like a Blapper after the confuse toss. I can't express how fun it is to hit someone over the head with Seismic Smash with a 1.05 damage modifier. And then swing my hammers around.

And MMs, between all their pets, do very good damage. I'm sure the math would be pretty complicated (since they're lower in level), but even though the pets have low modifiers like 0.35, you get six of them.

So unless you consider "summon your pets" as jumping through hoops, or consider damage scales of 0.95 to 1.05 to be inadequate for damage, there are at least 4 ATs redside that come right out of the gate doing great damage, no hoops.

If you're looking ONLY at base damage scale:

1.200 - Squid form for Khelds
1.125 - Scrapper, Blaster range
1.050 - Dom melee
1.000 - Stalker, VEAT, Blaster melee, Dwarf form, pet (non-MM) melee
0.950 - Dom range
0.850 - Kheld human form melee
0.800 - Tankers, Kheld human form range, pet (non-MM) range
0.750 - Corruptor, Brute
0.650 - Henchman 3 melee, Defender range
0.550 - Henchman 2 melee, henchman 3 range, Controller
0.450 - Henchman 2 range, henchman 1 melee
0.350 - Henchman 1 range

Overall, Scrappers and Blasters are the top damage dealers right out of the box (discounting squids). You have 4 villain ATs that are right below that before you even reach the next lowest damage dealing toon for base stats. And MM pets range from 0.35 to 0.65, but again, you get six of them. So if Blaster/Scrapper damage is your baseline for adequate damage, those are the ONLY two ATs you can ever play. Except maybe a squid-only kheld.

Quicksand is -25%, EQ is -10%, and all the other four earth powers are -20%. RI is -25%. Fallout is -30% but I wouldn't rely on having that. All-in-all, that's -140% not counting Fallout (-170% with). Two of those are autohit, many are AoE, some are stackable.

Dom values are lower, but the pets are the same (cause they're pets). So Dom gets -15% from all the earth powers, -25% QS and -10% EQ. But rather than one or two powers out of your secondary, your whole secondary will debuff defense. And the powers vary in strength from -15% to -30%. Thorn Burst is a PBAoE and Fling Thorns is a 30 foot cone, and together they do -45%.

ST options are even nicer with things like Impale doing -22.5% and already lasting nearly twice the recharge. With the Earth powers and the two AoEs, that makes -140%. So before Fallout and before any ST Thorn powers, the two sets are tied at -140%. With the ST powers, the Dom would pull far ahead because it'd only take one Ripper (which is technically a melee cone) or one Impale and something else to beat the 30% of Fallout.

Plus, Dom gets Thorntrops to more easily floor move speed, and Aim just in case you have trouble hitting to begin with. Or in situations where all that massive -DEF isn't working (like against Mako).

Food for thought.

Oh, I see.

Where's the Hamidon co-op zone again?

Yes I know you probably mean the mini-Hami during the LGTF!

1) Positron's Blast: ACC/DMG
2) Positron's Blast: DMG/RECH
3) Detonation: DMG/RECH
4) Air Burst: DMG/RECH
5) Standard IO: RECH

ACC: 26.5%
DMG: 95.9%
RECH: 98.29%

You also get 2.5% recov.

I usually just did Cap, Shark, Martial, GV. You can skip over Nerva if you try. And I often get friends to speed me past the low levels.

Though these days I might just stop going to GV. The painful navigation combined with annoying ambush enemies with web grenade plus the newspaper being 90% gangs you don't want to fight means I hate the zone. I'd rather end my days in RWZ, exemped in Martial, or in an AE building.

Don't forget everything in the Shadow Shard. Villains don't get to go there very often, but when they do they sure don't make any friends.

I'm not sure I really understand what you're saying. Your argument sounds like you're saying the CoV ATs suck without their inherents. But you can't play a Brute without Fury or a Stalker without Assassination, so you can't JUST look at their base numbers and say they're weak because of it.

Whether you feel it's a good idea or not, the CoV ATs rely more heavily on their inherents than the heroes do. In fact, a few of the hero ATs could not have inherents at all and you'd barely notice. Hero ATs were designed and balanced before inherents existed. As a result, they're weaker, to make sure the classes aren't unbalanced after the change.

CoV ATs are designed to have their inherent powers. Stalkers start off with hide so that they come out doing controlled crits at level 1. And as much as you seem to think so, there's no situation where you're going to run a Brute in combat and have 0 fury all the time, making the Brute do crappy damage with his pitiful 0.75 modifier.

It didn't matter that all the ATs had low base damage modifiers. All that mattered was that Brutes did great damage with high Fury, Stalkers had controlled crits, and Dominators had Domination. Corrs can debuff and scourge, and MM damage is dispersed through their pets.

You may view that as too gimmicky, but you still can't discount the benefit of the inherents in normal play. The gimmick may make the ATs not fun for you to play, but you're missing half of the picture if you just look at a Brute and say "He has low base damage."

I don't think the changes were a sign that the inherents were too gimmicky. I think it's more a sign that the classes themselves were unbalanced or the inherents poorly designed. If anything though, an AT needs to end up with good stats, whether they do that through pure core stats, through a significantly strong inherent, or both. Stalkers originally didn't have either, and Doms were great but only with certain builds which lead to a smoothing-out of their performance curve. Brutes attain their awesomeness almost entirely because of their inherent, but it's because the inherent is more or less reliable in all situations (unlike Domination was).

Brutes were never changed, and they have probably the most gimmicky inherent there is. You have to maintain constant combat and be under attack as well as attacking to have the benefit from your inherent. And if you don't have it, you do less damage than all the other melee types. If that's not gimmicky, I don't know what is. However, as its endured the test of time, it shows that Fury was well-designed, if gimmicky.

Stalker inherent was changed to be usable in more situations, more often. The AT also gained core stat buffs, but if the AT was going to be balanced around pure core stats like some of the hero ATs, Assassination wouldn't've been buffed so much. I would even argue it's LESS gimmicky, because Stalkers used to only crit when enemies were mezzed, meaning you needed a pocket Dom.

Domination could have perhaps been viewed as too gimmicky. But it still is. The thing was, Domination used to have a large +DMG component, making having Domination on as often as possible the intended goal for all players. Now that the damage is inherent to the AT instead of tied to the power, it's not as needed. However, Domination still offers numerous combat benefits, and having it around often is still a good idea. The basic gimmick of the power, to attack enemies so that you can enter an uber state where you're more powerful, is still in tact. It's just less sought after.

MMs got bodyguard because they were so easy to kill and all you could do was throw pets at badguys. I always thought the MM inherent power could just be coded into the core stats of the pets and then there wouldn't be a need for the bonus. So I always felt it was kind of a weak inherent. But I recognize the need for it, since it promotes keeping pets near you.

The "need for gimmicks" as you call it isn't a problem. It's just a different way of designing classes. Take a look at Tankers and Defenders, who have the weakest inherents in the game. They also do weak damage, and are some of the most unpopular ATs. And there are always people trying to suggest a better inherent.

Not everyone feels that the "gimmick" is a bad idea. But at the same time, the gimmick doesn't have to be overbearing. Scrapper gimmick is just random crits. The AT doesn't heavily rely on them, nor is it something you even need to think about.

There are quite a few reasons why inherents exist. One reason is to give variety between the ATs. Without inherents, the difference between a Stalker and a Scrapper, or a Corruptor and a Defender is just modifiers. Inherents allow an AT to focus their strengths and weaknesses more specifically than just a boost to a core stat would. Stalkers are a good example of this. Instead of having crits, the AT could just do a lot more damage. Instead, the damage is focused around times when you're sneaking and hiding. And in theory (although most people disagree and think it's a crappy design anyway), the Defender inherent is meant to highlight performance when you need it most.

There's also the fact that inherents can just be fun. A Scrapper's inherent is so basic and automatic that you could just replace it with a flat damage boost. But that wouldn't be near as fun as randomly seeing large crits pop up and one-shot enemies. Or counting how many crits in a row you get.

tl;dr version: Inherents are good, inherents exist for a reason, "gimmick is bad" is not universal, don't ignore inherents when comparing ATs.

On average, yes. But on average, are you sure that on average the crit rate is about 7% on average?

Your analysis is pretty good though. I think if I was to play another Brute I'd forgo slotting damage in the low levels entirely, and focus more on end.

You know, I was ready to roll my eyes at this whole "giant turtle" thing, but I went to DA to check it out myself, and couldn't believe what I found!

Yeah. SOME upgrade to the system is going to have to be done.

If I'm a hero, and I want to invite a rogue, can I see them in the search?
If that rogue is in Cap, can I still see them?
Can I invite someone in Cap if I'm in Atlas?
If I'm a hero, do I see pure villains or only rogues/vigilantes?
How can I tell which version of Ouroboros they're in?
Will villain zones be added to hero searches and vice versa?

Lots of unanswered questions so far. vv

Not if we can also clearly see that the team already has 8 people in it.

Though you're right that a "looking for more" flag would be useful too. But also have some "not looking for more" flags and things.