Dispari
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:Because the IO is EXCEEDINGLY RARE.Originally Posted by IanTheM1
What's really depressing to me is "why don't you just buy the IO?" is becoming a far too popular argument.
I put up four bids for the jump stealth IO for 25m each and left them for a whole month and none ever sold, except for one person that outbid me by paying like 100m. I'd love to "just buy the IO" but not like this!
They also cost like 250 merits and I'm not spending that many ITFs on something like that. -
One thing I'm worried about for this beta is time constraints. The devs have been announcing release dates ahead of time and not giving themselves much window. Personally I feel this is a bad idea, as it means the beta period for i17 is two months tops, period, unless they extend the date. They've told us i17 will launch in April, which means even if open starts on March 30th, they have at most 30 days to get it ready for live. Whether it's actually ready by then or not.
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I just downloaded something that was 27.4mb?
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SFs are a little more standardized fortunately. TFs can range from 10 minutes to 8 hours. Yes, seriously!
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Quote:That's not possible, since powers don't start recharging until they finish animating.Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
It's so fast that you can make a complete chain with just Shadow Maul (it recharges before it's done animating).
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Quote:Archery's secondary effect is pretty meaningless though. It gets +15% ACC and low end or something. And DP still has +10% ACC all the time so... Archery really has no combat secondary effect, buff or debuff. Not that I think it makes your argument in general invalid, just sayin'.Originally Posted by Umbral
Fire Blast sacrifices any mitigatory secondary effect for additional damage.
AR, Archery, and Rad do not.
EDIT:
For what I'm trying to say, Fire and Archery have no real combat secondary effects. Fire should be tops on damage, with Archery behind, then Incendiary DP. In that order (in my opinion). There may be one or two things inbetween Archery and Incendiary DP, but not too many. Non-Incendiary may be too low on the list. It should be slightly under average probably, but not that far under. -
Quote:Which is why the whole argument is flimsy.Originally Posted by Warkupo
By that argument, DP is better than archery because it can escape it's lethal damage more often than in just a single power. Smashing doesn't count.
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You know, I love this idea so much that I felt like making one for every AT. Let this be a testament for how impossible this idea is and how incredibly overpowered it would be.
These are even all done with:
* Only in-AT sets (no SS powers for Scrappers, etc)
* No duplicates (BU comes at various levels for Blasters, but I can only have one)
* At the respective tier (Rage can only come at 18 for Brutes, and level 18 powers besides Rage can't be used if I already have Rage).
BLASTER
Primary:
1) Flares
1) Fire Blast
2) Fire Ball
6) Rain of Fire
8) Aim (Electric's Aim comes at 8)
12) Ice Storm
18) Blaze
26) Neutron Bomb
32) Rain of Arrows
Secondary:
1) Subdual (only 80ft immob)
2) Caltrops
4) Build Up (Energy)
10) Targeting Drone
16) Smoke Grenade
20) Drain Psyche
28) Power Boost
35) Boost Range
38) Psychic Shockwave
How to win: I have, what, the six most potent AoE powers all at once, while having the highest damaging attack chain for ST? I also get Aim, BU, super high accuracy, extra range, self-defense, and other misc stuff. Not the safest Blaster maybe, but should be able to unload on a spawn and have it die pretty much instantly.
CONTROLLER
Primary:
1) Spectral Wounds
1) Char
2) Roots
6) Arctic Air
8) Seeds of Confusion
12) Stalagmite
18) Phantom Army
26) Carrion Creepers
32) Fire Imps
Secondary:
1) Healing Aura
2) Heal Other
4) Accelerate Metabolism
10) Siphon Speed
16) Freezing Rain
20) Dispersion Bubble
28) Disruption Arrow
35) Sleet
38) Fulcrum Shift
How to win: How could I not win? I can deliver -60% DEF, -75% RES, I have Siphon Speed and AM to give myself recharge. Dispersion gives me status immunity and ~12% DEF. I also have Fulcrum Shift. I can keep whole spawns of enemies confused OR stunned as well as recharge floored, plus they might all be falling and getting knocked down. I have an extra attack, the fastest hold, the highest damage immobilize, and 6+ pets. I could perma PA so I never get attacked while there are creepers everywhere and imps dole out shifted damage. I can even support a team with the dispersion, debuffs, and heals, but I could probably just solo farm +2/x8 effortlessly.
DEFENDER
Primary:
1) Healing Aura
1) Deflection Shield
2) Accelerate Metabolism
6) Insulation Shield
8) Force Field Generator
12) Sonic Dispersion
18) Recovery Aura
26) Clarity
32) Fulcrum Shift
Primary:
1) Twilight Grasp
1) Radiation Infection
2) Darkest Night
6) Enervating Field
8) Freezing Rain
12) Poison Trap
18) Disruption Arrow
26) Sleet
32) Heat Loss
How two win: If you notice I did two primaries here. One for buffing and one for debuffing. Buffing has all of the DEF of normal FF (~39.5%) along with 23.8% RES. Between the stuff everyone gets something like mag 14-15 mez protect to basic things, and Clarity is there for immobilize, sleep, confuse, and fear (mag 13). Plus everyone gets AM, FS, all the end they could want, and I can heal them.
The debuff one, although looking problematic on end, can do -62.5% DMG, -50% ToHit, -91.25% DEF, -140% RES, -420% RECH, and -1000% regen in an AoE. Also all those guys are falling down and held/choking. So I can floor recharge, and hit rate, and regen, and make it so unslotted people can hit, more than double damage, and provide soft control. But also I can heal and debuff on single targets if I want to.
SCRAPPER
Primary:
1) Thunder Kick
1) Smite
2) Cremate
6) Build Up (Elec)
8) Thunder Strike
12) Confront (lols)
18) Fire Sword Circle
26) Soul Drain
32) Lightning Rod
Secondary:
1) High Pain Tolerance
2) Temp Invuln
4) Healing Flames
10) Indomitable Will
16) Rise to the Challenge
20) Quick Recovery
28) Invincibility
35) Shield Charge
38) Moment of Glory
How to win: Let's see, I have two huge damage bonuses and the two strongest attacks ever. Inbetween LR/SC I have two more powerful PBAoEs and the three bestest ST powers for the range they're in. For defense I have bonus HP, higher RES than WP with more defense, with a heal, and a way more powerful tier 9 that I can use all the time. So WP with higher RES/DEF and a heal.
TANKER
Primary:
1) High Pain Tolerance
1) Hoarfrost
2) Healing Flames
6) Indomitable Will
8) Rise to the Challenge
12) Quick Recovery
18) Lightning Reflexes
26) Energy Absorption
32) Granite Armor
How to win: I just went for absurdity of self-defense on this. Do I even need to explain it? I didn't bother with the attacks, but I can assure you it would have Siphon Life. Oh and Lightning Reflexes is there to help with the speed and recharge of Granite. And QR is there to get around the end issues. Yeah, let's just eliminate/reduce all the drawbacks of really powerful skills while we're at it.
BRUTE
Primary:
1) Scorch
1) Smite
2) Jacob's Ladder
6) Spin
8) Thunder Strike
12) Taunt
18) Rage
26) Soul Drain
32) Foot Stomp
Secondary:
1) High Pain Tolerance
2) Temp Invuln
4) Healing Flames
10) Indomitable Will
16) Rise to the Challenge
20) Quick Recovery
28) Invincibility
35) Power Sink
38) One With the Shield
How to win: The secondary is only slightly different than the Scrapper version. It has a different tier 9, and since SC isn't as good on Brutes I gave them another way to manage their huge endurance issues for their primary powers. The primary? Well all a Brute really needs to farm is Rage and Foot Stomp, so let's add even more damage through Soul Drain, then add two more strong PBAoEs and a decent cone. I take a slight hit on redraw here, but it's worth it.
CORRUPTOR
Primary:
1) Shriek
1) Gloom
2) Irradiate
6) Aim (Ice)
8) Tenebrous Tentacles
12) Ice Storm
18) Siren's Song
26) Neutron Bomb
32) Blizzard
How to win: I already did buff and debuff combos with Defender, so for this I just went for a debuff primary. You could also build them to do damage, in which case it'd pretty much look like the Blaster version. But here's a debuffing one. On top of that, it's also pretty killer on AoE damage.
DOMINATOR
Primary:
1) Mesmerize
1) Char
2) Roots
6) Arctic Air
8) Seeds of Confusion
12) Stalagmite
18) Earthquake
26) Carrion Creepers
32) Fire Imps
Secondary:
1) Flares
2) Bone Smasher
4) Fire Breath
10) Havoc Punch
16) Psychic Scream
20) Drain Psyche
28) Seismic Smash
35) Ice Slash
38) Psychic Shockwave
How to win: Primary had to change two powers. The t1 is mostly just a reminder to skip it. I don't need an ST sleep, immob, or attack if I'm on a Dom like this. Had to lose Phantom Army sadly, but can just throw Earthquake in there. For secondary, I went all AoE damage. DP is there as a way to retain endurance. Can just take Soul Drain from epic for damage boosts. I have one powerful PBAoE, two cones, and a whole bunch of strong ST damage. I could take PB but honestly I wouldn't need it.
MASTERMIND
Primary:
1) Dark Blast
1) Call Thugs
2) Gloom
6) Equip Thugs
8) Life Drain
12) Call Enforcer
18) Gang War
26) Call Bruiser
32) Upgrade Equipment
Secondary:
1) Nullify Pain
2) Fire Shield
4) Darkest Night
10) Plasma Shield
16) Force Field Generator
20) Dispersion Bubble
28) World of Pain
35) Oil Slick Arrow
38) Dark Servant
How to win: Okay, this was probably the hardest one to do just because you can't really customize MMs much. So basically I just went for totally indestructable pets (and self). In addition to an AoE heal, pets get +31.8% DEF. With thug buffs and pet uniques all pets are soft-capped, and I need only take epic armor to soft cap S/L. Pets also get +23.8% RESfrom shields and we all share another 17.8% RES. So with uniques the pets have a minimum of 61.6% RES on top of being soft-capped. Plus I also debuff damage and accuracy, have a Dark Servant pet, and Oil Slick. In the event you could mix and match pets and the buffs still work, Assault Bot instead of Bruiser.
STALKER
Primary:
1) Thunder Kick
1) Smite
2) Jacob's Ladder
6) Assassin's Whatever
8) Build Up
12) Placate
18) Siphon Life
26) Thunder Strike
32) Lightning Rod
Secondary:
1) Hide
2) Ninja Reflexes
4) Danger Sense
10) Agile
16) Indomitable Will
20) Dodge
28) Energize
35) Power Sink
38) Moment of Glory
How to win: SR but with a heal/regen, better mez protect, and end management. Also a more usable/abusable tier 9. Not the most durable of the builds, but it's more durable than any existing Stalkers. For the primary, we get all the good out of Elec, but add Siphon Life and better ST damage attacks.
So yeah, let's go ahead and implement this right away! -
Quote:I have no doubt this is every dev's dream when making something, but the more unique something becomes the harder it is to make them balanced and equal. If we were omniscient we could understand what weight each thing carries and balance them all to a point where each tiny attribute is accounted for by the exact amount. It's part of the reason sets do start off being quite similar with their minor, moderate, high damage attacks. Basic tier structure, normal power formulas, things like that.Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
I do want all sets to be fundamentally equal.
But we're dealing with variables of unknown value. And even if you assign them a value and note that DP needs an improvement still (like I've done), there will always be people who perceive the unknown value differently than you. Even if the set is changed to a point where you're satisfied with its current amount of "utility," someone else may think it's too much, and a third person think it's still too little.
Right now DP feels like DB to me. It's not on top, nor is it on bottom. It's somewhere in the middle, with that extra bit of flexibility and player control. As such it may just fade into the background and be played for the fun factor and the people who actually do want that player control on-the-fly ability. I don't think many people play DB for the numbers, because it has hidden numbers unless your behavior is strictly predictable (same as DP actually). I do however feel that DP (and DB) could be improved number-wise without changing the set fundamentally or making it too powerful... so I wish it would.
Oh also, Incendiary is supposed to be green. Incendiary bullets burn phosphorous which burns at a greenish tint. -
Quote:I PLed to 22. Wanna know why? Cause I played to 22 normally on Test.Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
You are assuming that he PL'd to 30. Over double XP weekend it doesn't take much to get to level 30. My DP is now at 33 and most of that was solo or duo with a couple of TFs and larger groups thrown in.
I guess it depends what he meant by "a few hours." Sounds like you and your partner got close to 20 and you "hardly played over the weekend." And then I played the set extensively at 38 and 50. My DP/Dark is now 43 (newspapers pretty much from 22-43). My DP/MM is 29 (newspapers from 5-29).
But even if I hadn't played on Test? It's just a set. It's not like it's revolutionary from the core up. It has a minor, moderate, high, cone, ranged AoE, and PBAoE. I don't need to learn how to use those powers. The only powers I really need to learn are Swap Ammo and Piercing Rounds, and that doesn't require a strict ride from 1-x (especially since PR doesn't even come until 26). Even just a couple practice rounds up in your 40s or 50s would be enough to get a feel for the set. I did the same thing with Shield.
I've played enough sets pre-20 and I don't care to run around without Stamina or SOs, so yeah, gonna skip that part kthx.
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Quote:Really? Interesting. And where'd you get a Regen Tank?Originally Posted by Halon
I already play my SS blueside regen tank as if they were a scrapper or brute. The regen lets the output remain good but continuous. I loathe the concept of a tank per se. It's built on the fakeness of "taunt", which would be ignored by any foe with an IQ above room temperature, and is, in fact, why PvP is so different from PvE.
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Quote:It's far more complicated than that. You're still only considering the overall kill speed as the only balance factor. True if you ran them over a bunch of missions you could find which one completes faster (hint: probably fire). But DP also has the ability to adapt and kill SAFER. It has the ability to use knockback when knockback is wanted, and not when it's not. It has the ability to stack slows with slows or stack -DMG with -DMG (my DP/Dark corr loves this). It has the ability to fight an AV and debuff his damage so the tank can take less damage. Fire might kill faster, but it can't do any of that stuff. In fact, no other set can.Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Could you sort of take a fire toon up against 5 varying missions with different mob groups (inclu fire demons for example) and then take a DP toon into the exact same missions, and measure them both across the whole range? I'm a total noob when it comes to numbers, but if what I think you're saying is true, DP is supposed to be more of a jack of all trades rather than v good at one or three mobs and v bad at one or two?
Eco. -
Quote:I use lethal to solo. It's the best option. ES has a sweet 70% chance to trigger.Originally Posted by BrandX
KB is useful on a range team admittedly.
The hold/stun worthless without something to stack it with.
...just saying that makes me want to roll a DP/Dark corr. But if I did that, i'd likely ignore my Elec/Thermal Corr I love so much. *cries*
I also disagree the hold/stun is worthless. I took it on my Blaster and love it. Granted on Test I took it at 12, and respecced out of it later, but ended up taking it again by 50 (Blasters have so many open power picks). In the low levels I wasn't using it. Guys die fast and when you're on a team there's rarely enough need to just mez one guy. But it's always handy to have a mez to use on random sorcerers, porters, sappers, or what have you. Heck it's the best mitigation the set has. Maybe the -RECH and -DMG aren't that high. You know what is high? That one dude can't attack me at all.
Well, hang on. For one I wasn't necessarily saying it WAS that valuable. What I was saying is it's really hard to even point out how valuable it is. I'm saying that it DOES have a value that's non-zero. That is to say, if the set was perfectly balanced with other sets with ONLY damage in mind, PLUS it had the Swap Ammo functionality on top of it, it would arguably be "too good." What I said is it has a huge variance and flexibility that no other set can boast, so while it's not as powerful as fire, ice, or energy, it has the flexibility to almost be any of those sets on demand, plus a fourth one of -DMG which is unique to the set.Quote:Originally Posted by Umbral
wurds and:
I then challenge you to prove that this vaunted flexibility is as valuable as you seem to claim it to be.
I didn't say that I personally feel Dual Pistols is balanced right now. I'm saying that the devs might believe that though. And additionally, any attempts to balance the set with other sets has an unknown variable attached to Dual Pistols which makes perfect balance extremely difficult or even impossible. Nobody knows what value "Swap Ammo" represents, and we likely never will. So I can't prove anything to you other than to say:
Perfectly balanced (for damage) DP + Swap Ammo = "too good"
Slightly weaker than average (for damage) DP + Swap Ammo = ??!?!?!?!?!
Or in other words, if DP is balanced to an average of 50 for its performance:
50 + x = more than average performance
<50 + x = ?!?!?!?!
We don't know the value of x, and never will. This makes DP hard to balance. For the purpose of balance, every set's secondary effect from fire's DoT to rad's -DEF can be assumed to be the same value. However, DP has the unique ability to CHANGE its secondary effect between four (really more like 6-7) effects, as well as change its damage type. That particular value is unknown. If DP ONLY had lethal with its -DEF/KD/KB/-RES, then yes, the set would quite obviously hands-down be underpowered. Since it's not that simple, well, it's not that simple.
Even if I wanted to prove that DP is balanced as-is (which I kind of don't), I couldn't. All I'm really trying to say is the devs may think the set is balanced while we don't. If it were up to me, I'd probably do the following:
- Give secondary effects to Pistols; they'd be weaker/shorter duration, but be there
- Reduce ES' animation time to 2.00-2.07s to be in-line with other high blasts
- Reduce the damage variance window of HoB from 0%-200% to 50%-150% or even 75%-125%*
- Reduce HoB's recharge to 60s*
* = I made a rather big post about this in the open beta forums if you want to read specifics.
Overall I think the only thing I really am saying is that DP is okay. It's not great, but it's not as bad as some people think it is. I personally would improve it, but even if it's not improved I'll keep playing it.
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Quote:I think one of the problems was building Brutes with Tanker caps from the start. I did a bunch of math at one point and learned some things about how absurd Brutes are (this coming from someone who has more Brutes than any other AT).Originally Posted by Silas
I don't think the solution is to make Tankers tougher, either by scaling their numbers up or giving them higher caps or whatever.
They're already arguably too tough, since they pay for it in damage, a bad bargain a Brute doesn't have to make. IMO what Tankers need is a revamped Inherent that better differentiates them from Brutes.
At one point I wanted to propose that all ATs have an HP cap that's exactly twice (+100%) their base HP. This would solve a few problems. For once, Stalkers and Blasters are ridiculously close to their HP cap. A Stalker with accolades only needs 13.5% HP to cap their health. Meaning UNSLOTTED High Pain Tolerance pushes them several percents over their cap. It also means powers like Dull Pain are utterly wasted. When I did the math, almost every single AT had to increase its max HP. MMs saw no change because they're the only AT that's already at that point. Brutes were the only AT that had to lose HP. Yes, of all the ATs almost all of them have a cap that's less than twice their starting, with some being exceptionally close. Brutes have a max HP that's MORE than twice their starting HP.
I also went over the ATs and wanted to make a more tiered system for the melees for RES caps. For instance, Stalker -> Scrapper -> Brute -> Tank. Meaning the RES caps would be 75%, 80%, 85%, and 90%. Again, that means Brutes are the only ones that lose.
In fact, just about every time I wanted to propose a more "logical" or standardized systems, it sounded like "NERF BROOTS" because quite frankly, they're just that good. Although the HP one wouldn't really be a nerf because I'm certain no Brute could self-cap even reduced. It would require accolades (+20%), Dull Pain (+60%), and somehow a further +20% HP through IOs, which would be hard.
If it was up to me to make Tankers useful around Brutes, it would probably involve them not having the same caps. Not the same max HP, not the same max RES, and most especially not the same aggro cap.
In addition to that I'm also working out a hypothetical new system which would make Tankers, Defenders, and Stalkers more in demand through a roundabout change to teaming mechanics. -
Quote:This, along with:Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
I disagree. Mediocrity is the worst possible thing this game can have, in regards to powers.
Mediocrity requires a middle. A middle requires to ends. Mediocrity tautologically requires some things to be better, and some things to be worse. We shouldn't want that. We should want all things to be equal.
...this, I feel I should speak up. There's one thing I have to point out. Almost everyone in this thread is ONLY looking at damage, PERIOD. You cite Archery/Fire as being totally awesome and say DP is worse than them, and that all sets should be equal. Archery and Fire have no meaningful secondary effects. Least not combat ones. Fire just does pure damage, and Archery's secondary effects are speed, recharge, and cheapness.Quote:Umbral raised a few points to that effect: Some powersets are low in one area, but compensate in others.
Now compare to a set like DP which is absolutely chock full of secondary effects. It has a stun/hold (depending on what you want). It has KD, KB, -DEF, -RECH, -speed, -DMG, -RES, and the flexibility to adopt more damage. It has four damage types which you can pick at will. You'll never be fighting fire with fire or having to stick with something that does nothing. You can just switch.
So the issue comes when you try to compare sets and start comparing things that don't have numbers next to them. "This set is adaptable" does not have a "+15% to overall damage for powerset comparison purposes" next to it. You can't do the math on Fire's damage, then the math on DP's damage, then add the value that Swap Ammo represents and see which one is better. The idea of whether or not DP is fine where it is is totally subjective, and always will be. Simply because it has elements that don't appear in graphs and charts. Unless you simply ignore those elements and claim that the set is weak in damage and damage alone.
If the issue is that this ability doesn't feel like "enough," that's still subjective. To some people it will never be "enough." To some people it will be "too much." Since you can't attach a number to it, it's impossible to fully balance to an absolute value.
So for your own words, DP may be "low" in one area (damage), but "compensate in others" (extreme flexibility not seen in any other set to date). -
Quote:I couldn't remember who did which. One of the analysees I saw showed that DP was about average with SOs. Like in the 40-50% range (that is to say, about 5th or 6th out of 10 sets). Slightly more with fire but never really exceeding the halfway point. Then dropped off a lot with IOs. Overall I think that's about where it needs to be. Somewhere in the 40-60% range.Originally Posted by Umbral
Bad troll is bad. :P
(If you're curious, Disp is pretty much quoting almost word for word a criticism I gave to a really and pretty much useless analysis for DP in the beta)
The other one claimed that DP was like the second worst set for damage which was simply untrue.
And again I still think there are a few things about DP that need to be changed. HoB is on both our lists I think. -
Quote:Weren't you the one that forced DP, and all sets you compared, into an arbitrary attack chain regardless of the difficulty involved in doing so or even if it was the most efficient DPS chain for that set?Originally Posted by Umbral
Considering I did comprehensive damage analysis for DP under both conditions and it didn't perform very well under either
If not, forgive me.
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Quote:This isn't entirely accurate. Granted Fear is the second weakest status effect, but it doesn't permabreak like sleep does when hit once. If I may quote from the wiki:Originally Posted by Warkupo
Fear having a long duration isn't much of a benefit either. Assuming the fear'd enemies are getting hit they don't act like they have a fear effect at all. Much like sleeping enemies wake up, feared enemies fight back. Having a long duration on an effect that already isn't doing anything is like multiplying a million by zero. You still get zero.
If you fear a spawn, none of them can move or attack. If they are hit with one AoE, they can all then attack ONCE, OR move. After they attack once, they have to wait until hit again. It doesn't just take one hit, then fear goes away (like sleep). So if the fear lasts for 30s, they have to be attacked once EVERY time they have an attack queued. Even against groups who are being attacked repeatedly there will be gaps where the enemy would have otherwise attacked but can't, which slows down their retaliation. It can be especially good for units who want to move into melee, because they'd have to be attacked twice to move, THEN attack. And if you're running around you can seriously waste their time.Quote:Fear is a Status Effect. A mob or player under the affects of a Fear power will cower in terror for the duration of the power. NPC enemies have a chance to run a short distance or stand still and cower. Most importantly, while Fear is in effect, the target cannot attack unless it is attacked first. Then the target can either perform one counter-attack, or run away for 10 seconds, after which it will go back to cowering until the Fear effect wears off. Fear does not detoggle its target.
Fear's not as potent as hold, stun, or confuse, but it WILL lessen enemy attacks and ISN'T pointless on a group of foes even if all enemies are being attacked by AoEs. It's kind of like -RECH in that it won't show its usefulness right away, but over the course of the fight will help weaken the incoming damage. -
Quote:Well that video DID show Hail of Bullets with what looks like a 30-35 second recharge time.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I blame the Hero Con video
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Quote:A few of the newest sets that have been introduced have been pretty potent. Thugs is a top performer for MMs. Willpower is usually considered the second most powerful defense set, only under Stone which comes with downsides. Shield is high popularity for farmers and with IOs is a strong set. So a lot of people have high expectations of new sets and don't want them to be low performers. This means even if they're only AVERAGE in numbers people aren't too happy. A lot of people want new sets to be really strong, so would prefer DP to be one of the best sets in the game.Originally Posted by xoxman
But im totally losing the point, my question was, what do you mean by the next willpower?
I doubt Castle and Synapse want to create "another Willpower" where every set ends up being compared to it and people complain that set X is nowhere near as good as "Willpower" and should be buffed. Or "Willpower" should be nerfed. -
Quote:DP is right near the middle in ST and AoE. It's like 5 out of 10 and 6 out of 10 for each attribute. With incendiary it's like 4/10 and 5/10 or something like that. With SOs, it's right about where it needs to be. It's not another Fire Blast or Archery, but it's not supposed to be.Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
So, I freely admit we might've been looking at different numbers. However, the ones I saw, during Open Beta, put DP at in the bottom half of all sets for Single Target and Area of Effect. This could be easily balanced by the set having great utility, which it does. However, my experience is that it doesn't have enough. If you can numerically prove me wrong, I'll gladly alter my opinion to 'the style of the set just didn't mesh with me'.
With IOs, it can fall behind because of its long animations. But the vast majority of people don't use IOs, and the game isn't really balanced around IOs to that degree. The fact is the set is fine with SOs, and is only "a bad set" if you're comparing it with IOs to other sets with IOs. DP with IOs is still better than regular sets without IOs, and DP with SOs is still as good or better than half the sets with SOs.
There's two things dragging people's perception of the set down. Well three actually.
One, people want the set to be really good with IOs. Unfortunately this isn't the type of set that shapes up to the same degree as others when given high recharge. It's hampered by animations. If you're a number cruncher and only care about a set's performance with IOs, compared to other sets with IOs, then yes it's not the set for you. Because of the type of people that post on forums, it makes it seem like this is all everyone cares about. But most players don't crunch numbers or even use IOs like this so it's not that big a deal to them. Using DP with IOs would still yield better performance than the average player.
Two, there's a factor that's hard to quantify, which is the ability to switch ammo types and always be on top of any situation. You can switch to a less resisted damage type, intentionally stack with your debuffs, cooperate with teammates to stack a type of buff, or just pick a damage type you feel like using. Now while it's true if the set was exactly 50% on all points (exactly middleground in all ways, meaning balanced toward being a middleground set) AND had the amazing flexibility, it would be "too good" because average performance + awesome bonus = better than average performance. The issue though is it's really hard to say if 40% + awesome bonus = average performance. Because you can't really quantify "swap ammo." It's possible the devs think the set is balanced because it has the ability to always be in control. If you pick Fire it has top performance on average, but what do you do when you face fire demons? DP doesn't have that issue.
The third thing I mentioned is people want it to be Archery. Archery being one of the most powerful and overpowered blast sets possible. Kind of like how all defense sets are compared to Willpower now, if something's not as good as the top performer, they think it just sucks and isn't worth playing. While it's true DP is no Archery, it's not the bottom of the barrel either.
DP is a solid set. While not the best, it's also not the worst. I still think it could be improved and not be overpowered. Personally, I can think of three or four things I'd do to DP if I was in charge. They're minor things that would push DP up a couple notches, but it still wouldn't be a top performer. I hope the set does get a little nudge. I don't want it to be the next Willpower, but I would like to see threads about how DP fails stop.
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Quote:Yeah, except we already covered that I've seen Brutes do +4/x8, and soloing (heck even teaming) at that difficulty is extremely ineffecient and would only be worth doing for a "look what I can do" moment.Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
Ohhh SNAP!!
Brute just got TOLD!
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Quote:Fear in a vacuum by itself is pretty crappy. However, like sleep and confuse it has some advantages that are mostly built in to the powers themselves. What I mean is:Originally Posted by Warkupo
I have a fairly love/hate relationship with fear. Solo it can be quite potent, like the Stalker who AS's a group, scares them witless, and then finishes off another 1-2 of them before the gits even think to react.
In a group, however, with AOE's flying out of every orifice, it does about nothing. At least with sleep you can keep a group held and tucked away, or set up containment, or something. Fear on the other hand just makes the enemy animate funny every now and then.
* Holds are the most potent. They flat out stop someone from attacking or moving period. They're short duration.
* Stuns are fairly good. They don't stop someone from moving, but they do stop them from attacking. They're slightly longer in duration most of the time.
* Sleep, confuse, and fear are softer controls. They can be weakened or even broken when enemies are attacked. These mezzes tend to have very long durations to compensate.
These powers also tend to have shorter recharges. Compare any AoE mez to Terrify or Seeds of Confusion. These powers have recharges of 40s and 60s respectively. Spore Burst or Mass Hypnoses are only 45s. AoE stuns tend to have a recharge of 90s, with AoE holds being four whole minutes. So even though the effects are weak, they can be on almost all the time.
It's also common for fear to come with a large -ToHit secondary effect, so that even when enemies do attack back, they do so at a reduced hit rate. Fear can slow down enemy attacks some even if they're constantly being attacked. But it only reduces so much. When combined with -ToHit though it can be a solid mitigation tool. So things like Fearsome Stare and Touch of Fear will still be useful even if enemies don't get feared or if the enemies are being constantly attacked.
So between all those, even if fear is a weaker status effect compared to hold, it's far easier to keep an entire spawn feared indefinitely than it is to keep them held. You also get other benefits like fast recharge or -ToHit. While some powers don't have all these (Terrify has no -ToHit), they tend to have one or two of those perks.
Not only does Invoke Panic not have ANY of those bonuses (the recharge is 60s, the longest of any fear -- the duration is only 13s for a Controller, which is shorter than even AoE holds -- and there's no secondary effect), but it has ADDITIONAL downsides that make it even LESS useful. For instance, it has -20% ACC. Touch of Fear has +20%, Fearsome Stare is base accuracy, and Terrify is only -10%. It also costs a huge amount of endurance (more than Terrify) AND can only affect minions. And the two prereqs can't be overstated.
Incidentally this is also why the Mental Manip power Scare is so useless. It's a short duration fear with no secondary effect. -
Quote:Taking up three power picks and a bunch of slots that you could use elsewhere sounds pretty harmful to me.Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Right about now. *wave!*
Of course, I freely admit I'm doing it for concept and set bonuses. It's not very good. On the bright side, at least it isn't actively harmful.
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Quote:Shoot, I can top that.Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
Actually, as long as we're cherry-picking any powers we darn well please, why not use (as a top-of-the-head example) all of Bots except the personal attacks and Repair, all of Mercs except the personal attacks and Serum, all of Thugs except the personal attacks, Dispersion Bubble and Fulcrum Shift? That makes a nice 18 powers (primary and secondary).
1) Call Thugs
1) Call Enforcer
2) Protector Bots
6) Spec Ops
8) Equip Thugs
12) Equip Robot
18) Equip Mercenary
26) Assault Bot
32) Commando
1) Healing Aura
2) Force Field Generator
4) Sonic Dispersion
10) Upgrade Equipment
16) Upgrade Robot
20) Tactical Upgrade
28) Dispersion Bubble
35) Phantom Army*
38) Fulcrum Shift
This way you get 15 pets (over twice as many as usual) but they're all ranged and all the most damaging and potent ones. Phantom Army is also available to add pet uniques and to alpha and take aggro. On top of that you get (using Defender numbers; I'd use a Defender base for this build for obvious reasons):
* +31.5% DEF (pet uniques round it off to +41.5% which bots and thugs will finish off)
* +23.8% RES (pet uniques round it off to 43.8%)
* Healing Aura for a high amount of HP back per click
* Fulcrum Shift
You could also take Maneuvers to soft-cap all your pets. And if we can customize epics too, I'd probably do something like:
41) Quickness
41) Siphon Speed
44) Accelerate Metabolism
47) World of Pain
That would add 50% recharge for myself, plus 20% for each siphon cast. This would make it easier to perma AM, WoP, and PA. WoP would add another 23.8% RES, putting my pets at a minimum of 67.6% RES.
So yes, let's allow players to cherry-pick powers.