Deus_Otiosus

Well said.


I'm not directing this at you, because I think you were just making a statement (that I agree with).

But really, they already are.

Tankers are heads and shoulders above any and all other ATs in the mitigation department.

Just because some situations can see that mitigation be less of an overall factor, doesn't suddenly mean that mitigation no longer exists.



Out of curiosity, does anyone actually have some Tanker ST DPS calculations they could lay down?

I'm sorry, are you saying Tankers, an AT with effectively two inherents, can not make use of Gauntlet and Bruising both solo and teamed?

Just so you understand, "Brutes" are an archetype in a game "Brutes" are not human beings who think a certain way.

On any character that can hold aggro I always turn the AVs around, on any character (including my squishies) where I break the spawn and will have mob attention I do this as well.

This is nothing intrinsic to "Tankers".


This is more of the same, its a pointless point that has nothing to do with the mechanics of an AT.


What you are asking for is your Tanker to have the auto-win ability to fix this for other players who are clearly playing badly. I don't believe in auto-win powers or gaming where one AT can fix any and all situations to make everything safe.

That makes for a bad, boring game.

Not wiping is a team responsibility, no one AT should be a dedicated baby sitter.


How would a bad tanker apply in this situation?

I see 'stoopid' tankers all the time.

Should your Tanker have an ability to prevent them from being stupid as well?


No, I'd tell you you were a terrible player and then 1 star you with a note never to group with you again.

I also think your situation exists outside of reality, at least reality as I have experienced it for all of my time gaming in CoH.

I have never seen what you describe with the exception of the UGT - and that has a lot less to do with Tankers vs. Brutes than players simply not getting it.

And lastly, if i was the Tanker in that situation you would need to make a dedicated effort to literally use taunt repeatedly to get mob attention away from me, unless we had some taunt aura imbalance between us where you are an SD brute and I am a WP or SR Tanker.



The fault is with that logic.

The role that Tankers have is shared amongst several ATs. The devs have specifically labeled these ATs in the new character creation process.

People who are dedicated to Tankers, seem to have the notion that only the Tanker should capable of fulfilling that role in each and every situation where it presents itself.


The Tanker's specialty is mitigation, they also get extra tools for generating AoE aggro.


What you seem to want is Tankers alone being able to function in this capacity, which is a "holy trinity" gaming mindset.

Do you also believe in "healers" that you must have for your teams and TFs?



1) You're right, they're not as durable. I'm in agreement.

2) Trials have made a concerted effort to create space for multiple aggro holders, regardless of their AT.

3) If that's not enough for you, it really leads me to believe you are of the holy trinity gaming mindset. Being the sole, lead tanker is a primadonna mindset where your character only has purpose if you are able to fulfill your role without any interference of any kind from any other player - is this what you are asking for?

Maybe you're right.

On the other hand, he never addresses that.

He didn't address it the other times I've brought it up, and I have brought it up. Others have brought it up, and he doesn't address it then either.

Even though those points are being specifically addressed at his argument.

He can't address it because it shows that Tankers really do have more going for them then he would like to admit, and that Brutes are not close to them in mitigation.


Just tired of the same poster posting the same thing repeatedly (everywhere, in other sub-forums, even on topics that have nothing to do with Tankers in the first place) while specifically ignoring other very important points, and they are being ignored and glossed over on purpose.


I'm not sure how you are supposed to have a reasoned debate with a person like that.


If he ever once acknowledged any of those things as important to this discussion, I would really be amazed.


He can't really, because his entire argument relies on people believing:


This statement is the one he makes repeatedly, it relies on a fictional scenario where everyone is always playing "at the caps".

It then ignores all of the other times you are playing not at the caps and also ignores that there are other secondaries for Brutes except for the 3 that can actually hit the HP cap.

His scenario ignores what is the likely scenario for the vast majority of this game, my opinion is that he ignores it on purpose.

Some things you omitted on purpose, because you always omit them to make your case look better - which is basically just lying.

1) Only 3 Brute secondaries can even hit the Brute HP cap, and even that takes some work.
2) After that the nearest set is WP, of which most builds will be anywhere from 400 to 700 HP away from the cap.
3) HP buffing is so rare, it might as well not even exist.


Some other things you repeatedly omit.

1) Tankers also have 25% higher base HP.
2) Tankers also have 25% higher base DEF to build off of.
3) Tankers also have 25% higher base Resistance to increase their effective HP.


This is for other posters really, since you will just ignore these inconvenient truths or attempt to hand-wave them away.


What are you willing to take away from Tankers to give them such a massive offensive increase?


Also you're rant on ATIOs is off the mark. At best Brutes will get closer to their old fury limit (before the upper limit throttle nerf), with the practical teaming limit being around 70-80%.

Scrappers will be able to go beyond their current damage threshold with ATIOs, they probably make out the best.

I agree that some Tanker builds wont have a use for the +res proc although we don't know how much resistance it is yet.

Just like Brutes, not all Tankers are running around at their Resistance caps for all damage types either.


FWIF, I would have personally have like something that emphasized their ability to shield others from harm directly (for example something that let them absorb % of damage taken by team mate(s) to bring their higher mitigation into play, especially in scenarios where some AoE damage is all but unavoidable).

I'm sorry but I have never seen this, outside of the Brute dying - what problem could there seriously be?

This gets back to Nihilii's comment.



Why should all of the tanker versions of sets get a bunch of special mechanics, just for Tankers?


You want a greater threat level so you can have auto-win taunt mechanics and make things even easier than they already are?

This.

This, really.


Because they want to keep their Tanker mitigation levels.

This is the cockroach topic that just will not die.

Especially from a particular poster.


What some people seem to want is higher damage for Tankers with no sacrifice in mitigation.


The inevitable Brute nerf calls always show up in these threads, even though Tanker base mitigation outclasses Brute mitigation utterly and completely.

25% higher base HP
25% higher base DEF
25% higher base resistances
Higher HP Cap
Brusing, unresistable -20% ST resistance buff
AoE Gauntlet

The AT has plenty going for it, what it has a lot of people don't want. They want to be damage dealers, but they want this ludicrous level of mitigation as well.

If you want to do more damage, hold aggro and give up a huge chunk of mitigation for it, there is already an AT that does this.

Comic books don't have classes, they don't require any kind of internal balance so one type of character is preferred above all.

This is why a certain super guy can be on the same "team" as a guy who dresses like a bat.



Could be some problems with this.

For starters, what happens when you have 2 or 3 tankers?

Now do the "off tankers" get to do tons of damage as if they were scrappers? Is this fair in a scenario like an AV fight in a trial that is filled with PBAoEs, adds, etc? (in essence, the mitigation continues to serve a purpose)

The Tankers get to keep their mitigation correct?


Alternatively you could have a "stance" where the Tanker drops their own guard to go on the offensive to gain the bonus as you described.

Now they are making a trade.

The problem with that is that this game already has a Hybrid (Brutes) that sort of exists in that role, and that Hybrid (as an AT) has no ability to switch a stance as well to increase its mitigation.

This is coming from someone who isn't that concerned about RP reasons for using or not using X power.

It would seem that its very hard to "pretend" you're a bad guy with the alignment system.

The Villain and even some of the Rogue tip missions generally require you to really get your hands dirty.

On top of that, you have to actually work for one of the patrons, and do all their dirty work for them.

And lastly, you are basically doing all of this to obtain what is effectively "power" - which is the least heroic thing you can really do.

It's a long stretch imo to write off all of that.


Even if you could write all of that off, your actual reasoning of doing all of that for ultimately a good cause is really what at best a vigilante would do. For someone who really wants to be a "pure" hero, even that is a step across a moral line.


While it doesn't help the OP, it seems to me that it would actually be easier (concept wise) to start out as a villain and be redeemed as opposed to a hero going villain and then turning around and going back to hero.


That's just a non-RPers opinion. I usually have a general concept for my characters and whether they will need to go villain or not will be worked out from the start as part of the concept. (and that's about as far as my concepts go)

I'm disappointed too. I was hoping for things like the exorbitantly priced Enhancement trays and other consumables like the enhancement boosters to go on sale.

Honestly, I thought more consumables across the board would go on sale.


Seems like a missed opportunity for the paragon store.

I'd buy a year, maybe two, to get myself to the Tier I want to be at.

That would be a big incentive for me, otherwise I'm not too confident of buying that much game time for this game considering other things going on right now.

You've just described why SS/SD Brute is a great combo.

Scrapper superior Shield Charge be damned!!!

I think you've missed the entire point of why one would want to slot Taunt Sets and not just Taunt Enhancements.

Love it.





This is how I see them as well. I can't wait to test out these changes, and I don't even play Stalkers.


Your suggested changes have me ready to play an AT that I have not yet been able to take to L50. (I usually get frustrated in the mid 20s to mid 30s).


I don't disagree, but at the same time I have also come to really appreciate being at range in the endgame.

Obviously this does nothing for the rest of the entire game, but in the endgame the devs have made a very concentrated effort to create situations that make being at range a decent advantage.

AoE area denial abilities, high damage or even (near) instant death PBAoEs/Patches, etc. (Actually, chasing down prisoners on a melee has me wanting to poke my eyes out more than any of these at this point)

It doesn't make being at range a cakewalk, and it doesn't mean I don't think Blasters don't deserve a balance pass (they do) - but being at range gets a little more attractive with each new trial.

You did, post 216.

To address your hyperbolic statement, murdering thousands of minions requires damage.

SS/FA/MU, the ultimate farm build, does not need handclap in any shape or form to do what it does, this is because Handclap does not add damage.

It does not need handclap, becuase it has 4 AoE attacks that all deal damage.

High end builds will ignore a no damage power. High end builds have foot stomp on a 5-6s recharge before you even add the force feedback proc.



Low end builds are low end builds, I think they'd get use out of it - if they have to totally rebalance handclap for this, that would be better than it being an auto-skip.

Low end builds will not be more efficient at murdering thousands of minions by adding handclap - they will be safer, but not more efficient.


Also you're numbers for Handclap up thread were incorrect, it's a base 30s (not 20s) recharge with a Mag 2 stun (not Mag 3) and has Mag 5.19 KB.



You can continue to hold this position if you like, but on December 6th (most likely) Titan Weapons will be released and it will be tossing 3 x Mag 0.67 KB AoEs all over your argument.


Just in case you have missed it, it has a power easily on par with Foot Stomp (Same radius, similar damage, same target cap and I believe the same base rech) except unlike Foot Stomp it actually has a 1s cast time thanks to the restriction of needing momentum (I promise you, not an issue).

Then it will also have 2 x 120 Degree 9 foot range 5 target PBAoE Cones.

So not one, not two, make that 3 Powerhouse AoEs all with 0.67 KB.

With momentum, (I'm pretty sure) they all have cast times of 1.3s or lower (working from memory).



No, because you're using one power in one powerset as your justification while simultaneously ignoring things like peace bringers and energy blast.


The only one you might even remotely have something with is Shockwave. (because it actually has great DPA)

I personally don't see many claws users, and I stopped playing mine because I don't like Shockwaves KB, Eviscerate is meh at best - which left me with Spin and the option to incur redraw using epic/patron AoEs.

I'd love to have Shockwave be more usable in an "any time its recharged" capacity without requiring the "hop, skip and a KB" dance you do now to keep your targets from scattering.

If that REALLY means the power must be rebalanced so be it.

But to be perfectly honest, I really don't think Shockwave would need to be rebalanced, nor the Claws set overall. In light of Titan Weapons, I'm convinced of it.

I believe all of the AoEs except Defensive Sweep actually take the FF proc.

So thats 1 foot stomp sized PBAoE and 2 x 5 target max, 120 degree cones.

The base empowerment station is a great idea to look for for inspiration (no pun intended) for a wide variety of hour long boosts that could be sold as inexpensive consumables.

Fearsome stare is amazing.

-29% To Hit for a defender at ED cap and -23% for a corrupter.

No reason not to take it.



Oh yeah, it also fears everything in a truly massive cone allowing you to break spawns easier.

We see it as often as it makes sense for the story, and not constantly every single frame.

As EG already stated in that quote, Superheroes have multiple paths to achieve their goals in comics.

We usually only have one path in this game, the defeat of enemies.

I agree with your assessment on the jury rig hot fix that null the gull provides, but that doesn't mean null needs to be permanently relegated to solely that kind of option.

All it means is that I, as well as a large portion of the player base, will continue to avoid playing any power-set or power with high Mag knock back.

Almost none of them are really that great to begin with, that I would be willing to put up with what is either "balance by annoyance" or simply one of the least group friendly mechanics in the game, depending on who you are talking to.


I'm OK with that, because I'm not hurting for options.

Its not like I would suddenly run and remake all of my Fire Blast Corrs into into Energy Blast Corrs.

Fire Blast would still be the better set, but at least at that point Energy Blast would be a better option (to me) than it is now (which is to say its a terrible option, that I will never play).

And contrary to one other poster's continued straw man and ad hominem attacks, I wouldn't suddenly try to squeeze Handclap into any of my SS builds either.

My SS builds already have Foot Stomp on a 5-6s rech on average, they have at least one other solid TAoE if not 2.

The last thing I need in my AoE attack chain is something that doesn't do any damage.

I don't need the mitigation from it now, because I've built my characters with enough mitigation already - and Hand Clap as it is now is as much mess as it is mitigation.

I won't need the mitigation if it ever gets changed, because using it would decrease my ability to deal death. It might at least be in the "nice to have" category.


If Hand Clap only did stun, or only did low mag KB (0.67), it would be useful for leveling builds and builds that couldn't or wouldn't build for Defense - but that's about it.



If I could turn off or slot an IO to reduce high mag KB, I might actually enjoy playing a Peace Bringer. As of right now, I will never touch that AT and have no reason to miss it.

Of those choices, I would probably go Willpower.

TW will be an extremely demanding set when it comes to endurance usage.