Desmodos

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I guess the question I should have asked as well is with the Shields that I get from Sonic do I even need Tough/Weave?

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Well, you could probably do with out Tough, but you'll still want Weave. Since getting to Weave requires to other picks from the Fighting Pool, Tough is the only viable option. Both Boxing or Kick are wasted picks, unfotunately you have to take one of them.

Sonic Sheilds will grant you resistances to FCNE which Will Power doesn't have much of on it's own. Weave will stack on to the defense to FCNE Hightened Senses does grant you. Combining Sonic's resistance shields and HS + Weave defense will make you a very difficult to kill scrapper.

My recommendation would be yes. While Dual Blades is not particularly expensive, you do tend to chain attacks rather quickly (it's a big part of DB's fun). Adding Tough and Weave will be noticeable drain on your endurance recovery. Granted, if you are running short on powers, investment in a Miracle and Numina's Unique could replace the need for Stamina.

Personally, I would just place two slots in each. I think you could find better use for those slots elsewhere. With out seeing the entire build, it's hard to offer more specifics. Quick Recovery is more than enough to run claws, having Stamina as well just makes it that much easier, though I wouldn't take Stamina until very late in the build.

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You weren't on a fire/kin controller?

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What's a controller?

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the teamed and buffed scrapper is most likely teamed with a tank. the survivability question is moot.


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This is a false assumption. I've never evaluated my scrappers performance based on the presence of a tanker. Outside of STF, I could care less if there is even a tanker on the team. I fail to see a tanker's presence as relevant to this discussion.

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outside of stf's or tf's in general this argument doesnt matter fer crap at all. like i said if all you care about is farming or soloing there is NOTHING to complain about

if you actually CARE about doing the hard TF's and are any other brute than a granite...that is when the disparity of not actually HAVING tanks redside comes out.

how many of you have actually done the lRSF without a nuke bumb-rush? i have. one time. if it wasnt for the GRANITE BRUTE who was io'd to the gills we would have failed miserably. i've tried an all mm LRSF with FIVE FORCE FIELD GENERATORS and with that much stacked defense, back alley brawler one-shot half the team with his hand-clap. we needed a tank. our only option is a brute, and for this SF the better option is only ONE brute build.

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OK, I've done LRSFs....with out a Granite brute on the team. In fact, I've never done a LRSF with a Granite brute on the team. I have run every TF available to scrappers with out a tanker. I've even run STFs with only scrappers (though we did nuke shivan GW).

I know for a fact LRSFs are run routinely with out any brutes at all. My point remains that TF, SFs, LSRSs, and the presence or absence of Tankers isn't relevant to this discussion.

The issue is scrapper vs brutes; is there an imbalance. Mind you, I haven't taken a position on either side.

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the teamed and buffed scrapper is most likely teamed with a tank. the survivability question is moot.


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This is a false assumption. I've never evaluated my scrappers performance based on the presence of a tanker. Outside of STF, I could care less if there is even a tanker on the team. I fail to see a tanker's presence as relevant to this discussion.

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brutes must play non stop. there is no waiting for people to res. no waiting for people to catch up. no waiting for fulcrum to recharge. no waiting for a fresh sb/fort/forge. no waiting.


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Hey this sounds familiar.....WAIT A MINUTE that's how I play my SCRAPPERS...all of them.

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Sooo.....Anything/Anything Scrapper = pwn?

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To over simplify things, yes.

Each combo has it's strengths and weaknesses. Just learn the 'kryptonite' of the set you chose and you can pretty much handle any scenario any other scrapper can. How you go about it might vary a bit, but that's part of the fun.

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The council have def debuffs on their machine guns and we fought a lot of them maybe that was it....Once you hit 30's and get everything slotted it may be different.


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Yeah...those defense debuffs can suck it. Still not sure why the Family gave us so much trouble.

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I still think this whole thing is ridiculous and are only noticed by forum harpies like we all are.

What a waste of time, because I am quite certain nothing will come of all this maths you guys have been bandying about.

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Sorry, I disagree completely. Much of my understanding about scrappers, other ATs, and general balance comes from reading or participating in these types of debates. I find them insightful and informative.

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Different goals. I think giving scrappers more damage is a ridiculous idea.

The tank contingent that's pushing for more damage would be even MORE up in arms than they already are.

My solution would quiet the most people, I believe.

Tanks get to be top dogs with mitigation caps.

Scrappers would be happier with that extra 5% possible dam-res and take their place as melee specialists with caps above the squishies.

Most brutes wouldn't notice the difference in survivability.

While I agree with throwing more damage at dominators across the board and yanking it from domination, I don't feel that throwing more damage at melee ATs is a solution that should be entertained.

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No argument. I wasn't suggesting scrapper needed more damage. Simply pointing out you seem to agree there is a balance concern regarding the damage to damage mitgation of scrappers vs brutes. I am extremely hesistant to suggest anything to address those concerns.

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So what's REALLY the big green elephant in the room? Only the fact that brutes get tank mitigation caps. A fact that I've noted repeatedly that I disagree with. Just as much as I disagree that scrappers should have the same mitigation caps as squishies.

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Set them both to 80% and call it a day. Then tanks can stop griping because they'll have the highest caps in the game and higher base mitigation values to offset their sucktacular damage output while brutes and scrappers will be completely interchangeable without stepping on tank toes.

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Perhaps I am reading this wrong, but aren't you pretty much agreeing with Umbral and Cybernaut? To leave both ATs mitgation the same and boost scrapper damage, vs deceasing Brute mitigation while boosting Scrapper mitgation are opposing approaches to addressing the exact same issue.

The debate seems to be arguing to agree with it's self.

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Plus it is amusing when somone tries to follow you.

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I get yelled at a lot for this.

Hey that's really cool. Love the flames reflecting off his armor.

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I'm looking at an interesting challenge: build the best scrapper to run the Positron TF

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No offense to Stealth Bomber or anyone else working on this. There are a lot of "scrapper challenges" being thrown. Some of these I have absolutely no interest simply because I fail to see the fun in them, but they are actually a challenge. I'm not aware of any scrapper combo that is incapable of soloing Positron TF. After soling Posi TF with a defender, I'm having a hard time imagining any AT incapable of soloing Posi TF.

Other than speed, what exactly would the challenge be here? It's long been established it could be done.

Other than masochisms, why exactly would you omit any IOs?
Even purple IOs are still subject to exemplar nerfication. Yes, the make things go faster, but I don't see them trivializing the massive amounts of tohit debuffs you'll encounter.


As for 'stuffing the farming talk', why else does anyone run this horrible task force a second time? If I didn't need the badge for an accolade, I would have skipped this TF on every single character. I do occasionally run Positron with my Purpled out 50....for the MERITS. I cannot tell how many thanks I've gotten for dragging some poor lowbies through the whole TF because they couldn't survive the first spawn on every map.

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It's not really a challenge if you're doing it for the reward, and build restrictions don't belong in a "challenge"

This comes off more as a "build me a merit farmer!" more than anything, sorry :-/

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I'm in this category.

My scrappers.

<ul type="square">[u]50s[u]
DM/DA
Spines/DA
DB/DA
BS/DA
Claws/DA

BS/WP
DB/WP
DM/INV[/list]
<ul type="square">[u]non 50s[u]
Fire/Fire lvl 45
DM/Regen lvl 44 (not likely to ever hit 50)
MA/DA lvl 44
DM/WP lvl 42
BS/Regen lvl 34
BS/Inv lvl 34
MA/Regen lvl 30 (not likely to ever hit 50)
DB/SR lvl 25
Kat/SR lvl 25
DM/SR lvl 19
BS/Sh lvl 4
Fire/DA lvl 4
Claws/WP lvl 4[/list]
Martial Arts is the rarest primary for me. The set is imply not for me. My MA/DA will likely hit 50..eventually but my MA/Regen is slated for deletion.

Shields is the rarest secondary for me, but I just haven't gotten around to it. Regen will end up my rarest. This set is just not for me, I can't see ever roling anther regeneration character.

I received the following suggestion via PM. I think I'll play my character with this costume for a bit, but I think it might be a winner.


Desduende
The green never occurred to me, seems almost perfect.

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Amusingly, I have a character named Mithril. I use a combination of the metalic body parts and the psych pattern with modestly contrasting greys to create a nice 'Damascus Steel' effect that I thought gave good 'Mithril' feel .

Like this
Closer look
Extra shiney with Invulnerability
Back side

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Oh wow, just saw that, very cool effect.

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Shockwave sounds like a winner for SR and Regen...my plan is to skip it on my Claws/Dark because I want to keep everything in my damage/mez/heal auras. Only really have room for 2 of three between Spin/Evis./Shockwave.

Sensible or foolish?

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I won't call it foolish. I do hear this concern voiced frequently for Claws/DA but my experience was quite different. Shockwave being a rather easy to use AoE cone goes rather nicely with Death Shroud and Spin. I open with Shockwave, then move to where ever the spawn landed. I use CoF and it takes hold before they get up. Spin and ST chain on the bosses. Against some mobs, they never get up.

There is a strategy to it. You need mind your environment. Indoors, clumping them into walls and corners works best. Even on wide open maps, target the guy in the back and they'll still land relatively bunched up together. Sure there's a trick to it, but for me that was part of the fun.

I plan to do the same thing with my Claws/WP. I don't see an issue with Shock wave at all.

I'de REALLY liked to see Dark Blast moved down to tier 1 or 2. They can drop Torrent completely, replace it with Gloom and then add Dark Obliteration. I'd say drop P. Gaze as well come someone will claim it's useful.

Pyre mastery for Scrappers seems like a given when you consider Fire Melee and Fiery Aura.

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for those worried about the fury bar...wouldn't the fact that you would be able to team with defenders, who would have an easier time capping your damage mean that the fury bar would be less useful blue side. Just curious I've been gone for a long time but I thought Brutes damage cap was higher than scrappers...thus defenders and brutes would bring a higher chance for constant damage.

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See Billzbubba's threads on the subject, but basically they have a higher cap by a lower modifier. On average, the damage is debateably equal. Having a defender buff you to tanker level caps would making chasing fury easier, but that's still chasing fury.

With out some sort of official or organized survey, I doubt we'd ever know. Truth is I haven't noticed any primary to be scarce or overly popular. Seems spread fairly evenly to me.

Congrats, that looks awesome.

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For the most part, it will hinder on concept. If either AT will fit the concept, I'll go scrapper every time.

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Why will you? I understand why, but I'm playing devil's advocate

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Basically, I'm not a fan of the fury mechanic. I accept it as a necessary evil, but given the choice, where concept would function for either AT, I would rather not deal with fury.