Desmodos

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I ran a dark/dark scrapper for a couple years before the sets were made available for tankers. I rarely touch my scrapper now. My tanker is dark/dark/fire. I run 9 toggles on her, with no end issues.

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Build or it didn't happen. Every time the general consensus is that something is "X" then assuredly someone comes along and says, "I never have a problem with X. I've been doing X just fine and with Y as well." So all of us must be incompetent buffoons because we can't think outside the box and get obvious IO's and use standard slotting and Frankenslotting to combat endurance issues. Mkay. I want to see how you run 9 toggles on a DA/ and not have ANY endurance issues. And standing around not attacking doesn't count.


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IO's solved Dark Armors endurance issues from Issue 9 on wards. I've spoken about this many times on the scrapper forums. I run 9 toggles on my DM/DA scrapper with no endurance issues: DE,OS,MC, DS, CoF, Hover, CJ, Tough, Weave. The guide in my signature explains the how and why. All the Dark Armor advice there will hold true for tankers as the endurance costs are the same.


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My specific build is not something I want to share particularly, but I can give some general guidelines for anyone who cares to contact me in-game. (@Maelthra)

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Case in point. Not to sound malicious or anything of the sort, but I want to see it. I want to see a build or a video. You can't make a claim like that when most ppl are on the opposite side of the fence and then tell us you won't show us. That stinks. Build or it didn't happen. I'm tired of people basically telling us we're inept for not knowing how to do something they claim to do sooo well, and then not be willing to pony up the proof. Prove it. Prove it I say! Show me the money!

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I'm not really understand why you are reacting so strongly to G. Squirrel. The resolution to Dark Armor's endurance issues is nothing new. There is no mystery behind it. It's been discussed many times since Issue 9. When I get home, I'll be happy to post my DA/DM build that has no enurance issues, with out Dark Consumption.

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But my question is why wouldn't the dmg aura be as often as the mezz aura?

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As far as I can tell, the frequency would be the same, every 10 seconds. Keep in mind, my comments are specifically geared towards scrappers and damage auras. Depending on playstyle, a scrapper damage aura will out damage every other attack (Throw Spines is the only exception I am aware of.) This grossly over shadows the damage contribution of the PROCs in toggles.

On a build that does little damage, a PROC in a an aura would make a more signifcant contribution, even though the actual damage output remains the same. Consider how much more valuable Sands of Mu is to some controller builds vs any scrapper build. By the same token, a high damage controller build (say Fire/Kin) would probably not benefit much from damage PROCs in toggles.

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QR

Dark Armor is really in pain with energy damage. I remember playing a DA brute back when they RWZ was more popular and almost dieing every time I jumped in for the alpha.

It was one of the few high-40s characters (which I had several accolades for) that I actually deleted.

It is good against exotic damage types and average/bad against common ones. I can't remotely see it being a good reliable tank if you are only playing one. If you are playing a bunch of tanks though, and want to have one in the closet for the occasional psi enemies, it would be fine.

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IO's can pretty much cover up the Energy damage hole via defense. As a result, energy damage is no where near as big a pain as it used be.

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You are suggesting my post implied the 20% chance was on every target vs 20% chance per target? Not seeing where I implied that.

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Not yours. Reyne's.

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and then at least one should fire straight away, (if not more)

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AHHH!! My apologies, you used quick reply. I misunderstood it to be a reply to my post.

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Here's a question..

What if the mobs run in and out of the damage aura repeatedly during the 10 seconds?

Does the system remember them or does it reset each time they re-enter the aura?

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Keep in mind the 10 second rule only applies to PROCs in Toggles (and technically auto powers, but that's never relevant).

As I understand it it works like this.

Seconds
1
2
3
4
5
6
6
8
9
10 Target check finds 3 mobs. 20% to mob 1, 20% to mob 2, 20% to mob 3.
11
12
14
15
16
17
18
19
20 Target check finds no mobs. PROC wasted.
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30 Target check finds 2 mobs. 20% mob 1, 20% mob 2

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20% chance to hit * dmg * seconds per tick/10 = added dps, or whaztever.

ie, my Deathshroud calc a while ago = .2 * 71 * 2/10 = suck.

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Unless something changed, or there was a clarifycation somewhere I am unaware of, that formula should be incorrect. The tick rate of the power should have no affect on this.

EDIT: So while agree with you that it sucks. I'm just clarifying it sucks to a greater degree than you are suggesting

It was understanding that every ten seconds, the PROC has a 20% chance to go off on each target. Each target will get a separate role. How often the toggle tick is not factored in.

I would be thrilled if my information is incorrect.

From ParagonWiki
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Procs require the power they are in to be activated in order to work. In a click power, the go off once with every click. In a passive power or active toggle, they continuously pulse on once every 10 seconds per target. Certain pseudo-pet powers will inherit the proc and if they fire off for a set duration, the Proc has a chance to pulse several times (once every 10 seconds) during that period.

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Sorry, still not seeing it.

You are suggesting my post implied the 20% chance was on every target vs 20% chance per target? Not seeing where I implied that.

Mind you, I'm not debating your point. You seem to agree with me. Just not seeing where you felt my post was misleading.

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It's 20% pet 10s per ENEMY.

When the proc triggers, it hits that enemy. Every 10s, every enemy gets a chance to be hit - not, as your wording suggets, you get a 20% chance to hit every enemy in range.

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Sorry, not seeing the distinction you're making.

It's a chance every ten seconds, regardless if enemies are in range or not. You have no control over when those PROCs will have a chance to go off unless you sit there and wait 10 seconds.

When inventions were introduced, I got every excited about the prospect of turning CoF into a 2nd damage aura. I placed a Glimpse of the Abyss 20% chance for Psi damage in CoF and then tracked the damage via Hero stats. After ~10 hours of testing (usually in 2-3 hour increments), I found the PROC contributed an additional 0.01% to my over all damage. That's rounding up.

IMHO, the 10 second rule pretty much kills any utility of damage PROCs in damage aura. I do not recommend them for damage or mez auras. I wish they make these go by activation times, or at least lower to interval. 10 seconds is just ridiculously useless.

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I suppose we need someone like Arcana to quantify exactly how much the additional HPs and higher resist levels add to a DA tank's mitigation when compared to a DA scrapper. But even if the difference is significant, (and I suspect it is) that doesn't mean that every player will find it to be a *noticeable* difference.

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I agree it's largely a subjective issue. While I would welcome Arcanaville's analysis, I can recognize currently there is a rather significant difference on paper. When I look at the numbers in Mid's it quite obvious the Tanker version of Dark Armor is considerably more survivable.

For me, it's more an issue about, "is that survivability worth the loss in damage output." My long experience as a DM/DA scrapper obviously taints my perspective. When I play my DA/DM tanker, I invariably find myself paraphrasing Jet Li from Lethal Weapon 4; "If I were on my scrapper, you'd be dead already."

Very nice, congrats.

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ClawsandEffect, .....NO DEATHSHROUD? are you FRAKKING kidding me?

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Cool. Just got the BSG curse in there. Show should not have ended so soon

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I'm one of those poor unfortunate souls who had to miss out on BSG during it's prime. Thanks to the beauty Netflix, I running a psuedo-BSG marathon. Basically I just watched all of season one, season two, and am halfway thru season 2.5 (don't ask me why the FRAK it wasn't just included in season 2). Needless to say, frak will likely be at the tip of my tongue and finger tips for the next week or so...but the show is fantastic.

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hmm, may have to look into that one for my dark/dark scrapper. Right now I rely on the dark melee end regain power.

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While Dark Consumption is a great power for managing endurance, once I had my IO build in place I found the power superfluous. Regrettably, the recharge of the power negates it's function as an attack. As a result, I no longer have Dark Consumption in my build.

Be sure and take swift. Slot it for flight, but no extra slots.

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Not for me. I have a 50 spines/DA scrapper, and the survivability difference between it and my DA/Mace is quite noticeable. Endurance management was more of an issue in the early levels with my tank, but once I respeced out of DS (until after Stamina) even that wasn't too bad. Besides the increased resist level and and higher HPs, getting OG 9 levels sooner made a big difference pre-40.

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Two things to consider from your perspective. 1) Spines offers little to no mitigation leaving your scrapper to rely almost entirely on Dark Armor for your mitigation. 2) While I have limited experience with Mace, it is my understanding it has stuns and knockbacks in many of it's attacks. Having played Dark Armor with various scrapper primaries, I can assure you they play a significant impact on your survivability. I'm in no way surprised you find DA/Mace considerably more survivable than a Spines/DA scrapper.

I have several scrappers that use Hover. If you're willing to slot it (Blessing of the Zephyrs on my DAs), it's quite effective though I would recommend some variation of Hover/Fly binds.

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I think the problem is the incredible power of, and hence the reliance on, the Dark heal.

Dark Regeneration completely heals the scrapper with the same click it completely heals the Tanker. Since Dark Regen can fix practically any problem, this means that the subtle difference of the increased res numbers and more hit points of the tanker is hard to notice most of the time, as long as DR recharges before you run completely out of life. So the more visible difference is the attack sets, and the tanker loses out there.

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I feel there may be much truth in this.

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honestly ..i hate my dark/dark


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This will likely come as a surprise to many, my self included, but I agree totally. Frankly, I'm baffled by how much I dislike my DA/DM tanker. At first I thought it was my own anti-tanker mentality, but I recently roled a WP/Axe which I'm enjoying thus far.

While on paper I can see the obvious differences between my DA/DM tanker and my DM/DA scrapper, in game the tanker just feels like a weak scrapper. I intend to re-visit my DA/DM tanker....eventually but ATM I think it's just not a good combo for a Tanker.

I may try DA/Mace or DA/SM next go around.

Reading comprehension for the win. Sorry, I see the link now.

Is this build intended for PvE?
Why are yo six slotting Stamina?
Why no damage in Axe kick?

How committed to +HP are you? Personally, I don't think +HP or regeneration are worth pursuing on any Dark Armor builds...well maybe for tankers.

Here's how I'm building mine. Heavy emphasis on defense and endurance management.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Despectral: Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Martial Arts
Secondary Power Set: Dark Armor
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Teleportation
Ancillary Pool: Weapon Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Storm Kick -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(3), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(3), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), T'Death-Dam%(7)
Level 1: Dark Embrace -- ImpArm-ResDam(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(7), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(9), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9)
Level 2: Death Shroud -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(11), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(11), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(13), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15)
Level 4: Murky Cloud -- ImpArm-ResDam(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(15), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(17), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(17)
Level 6: Focus Chi -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-Build%(31), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(48), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(50), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(50), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(50)
Level 8: Crane Kick -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(19), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(19), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(21), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), T'Death-Dam%(23)
Level 10: Obsidian Shield -- ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(A), ImpArm-ResDam(23), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(25), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(25)
Level 12: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(27)
Level 16: Dark Regeneration -- Theft-Acc/EndRdx/Heal(A), Theft-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(27), Theft-+End%(29), Nictus-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(29), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 18: Combat Jumping -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(31), Zephyr-ResKB(33)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(33)
Level 22: Crippling Axe Kick -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(34), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(34), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), T'Death-Dam%(36)
Level 24: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(36), Zephyr-ResKB(37)
Level 26: Dragon's Tail -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Rchg(37), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(37), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Erad-%Dam(39)
Level 28: Cloak of Darkness -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(45), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(45), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 30: Boxing -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(42), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(43), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), T'Death-Dam%(46)
Level 32: Eagles Claw -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(40), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(40), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), T'Death-Dam%(42)
Level 35: Oppressive Gloom -- Acc-I(A)
Level 38: Cobra Strike -- Acc-I(A)
Level 41: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), Empty(45)
Level 44: Weave -- HO:Cyto(A), Ksmt-ToHit+(46)
Level 47: Recall Friend -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(48), Zephyr-ResKB(48)
Level 49: Caltrops -- RechRdx-I(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit



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I'm still undecided, but I'm considering dropping Cobra Strike and recall for Hasten and Super Speed.

Hollows, do you mind re-posting your build. I loaded it into my Mid's and I'm only showing 2 slots in DR for no endurance reduction at all. I'm thinking there is an error somewhere. I rather not comment on your build until I see how you intended it to be.


ClawsandEffect, .....NO DEATHSHROUD? are you FRAKKING kidding me?

EDIT: Forgot the smilies, with out them the cheekiness I intended was lost

Mr. Cowbell, You're over slotting a few powers. DE, MC, OS, and Touch are all way over slotted. You could allocate those slots elsewhere for greater returns.

As a whole, there is nothing wrong with your current build but if you wish to add some defense, I can offer a few suggestions. My Spines/DA uses CoF so you can move those slots about elsewhere, OG I presume. I put no effort into recharge but I did manage to get 27.8% melee defense and 30% defense to ranged and AoE. To achieve this you will need to invest in Blessing of the Zephyrs and take Weave.

I don't recommend you use my build as it's not endurance friendly, but it should offer several hints on how you might adjust yours.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Desmalla: Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Spines
Secondary Power Set: Dark Armor
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Lunge -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(5), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(9), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), T'Death-Dam%(48)
Level 1: Dark Embrace -- ImpArm-ResDam(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(3), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(36), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 2: Spine Burst -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), Erad-%Dam(11), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(50)
Level 4: Death Shroud -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(5), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(7), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(11), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45)
Level 6: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 8: Hover -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(9), Zephyr-ResKB(40)
Level 10: Obsidian Shield -- ImpArm-ResDam(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(37), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(39), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 12: Impale -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(13), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(13), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39)
Level 14: Fly -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(37), Zephyr-ResKB(46)
Level 16: Dark Regeneration -- Theft-+End%(A), Theft-Acc/EndRdx/Heal(17), Theft-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(17), Nictus-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Numna-EndRdx/Rchg(21), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 18: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(19)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(21)
Level 22: Quills -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(23), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(23), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(25), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 24: Murky Cloud -- ImpArm-ResDam(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(40), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(42), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(42)
Level 26: Ripper -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(27), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(27), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(34), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 28: Cloak of Fear -- Cloud-Acc/ToHitDeb(A), Cloud-Acc/Rchg(29), Cloud-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(29), DampS-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(42), DampS-ToHitDeb/Rchg/EndRdx(46), DampS-Rchg/EndRdx(46)
Level 30: Cloak of Darkness -- GftotA-Def(A), GftotA-Def/EndRdx(43), GftotA-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43), GftotA-Run+(43)
Level 32: Throw Spines -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(33), Posi-Dmg/Rng(33), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), Posi-Dam%(45)
Level 35: Build Up -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(36)
Level 38: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 41: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 44: Weave -- GftotA-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(A), GftotA-Def(45), GftotA-Def/EndRdx(50), GftotA-Run+(50)
Level 47: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 49: Combat Jumping -- Zephyr-Travel(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit



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|-------------------------------------------------------------------|</pre><hr />

Happy Birthday, Larissa.

HBD, you PC guru.

[ QUOTE ]

Okies, I did a demo using demorecord. You need to bear with me. What is the easiest method and place to upload it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I put mine up as a text document in google documents. Anyone wishing to watch it can past it on note pad. Drop the note pad document on your demoplayer and viola.

[ QUOTE ]
I can't help if you two don't know when to jump. Just kidding. Seriously though, I haven't had an issue with sprinting stunned mobs for at least a year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trans, maybe you can make a demo of video of what you mean. I tested it a few times this morning. I see absolutely no effect between CoD and OG.