DarkCurrent
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Quote:Great point. I forgot about the immobs from others messing Slick up. I recall way back when running an all-dom Ice 'slow' team and having problems with a couple pugs that were using immobs. Nuked the advantage of ice slick completely (we could carpet an entire room with the things).Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
One of the issues I have so far is that a lot of these suggestions are to just remove the -KB aspect from Frostbite but that won't really solve the problem that Ice Slick has. While running in teams, Ice Slick immediately loses effectiveness anytime anyone uses any AoE Immobilize, so Ice Slick finds itself obsolete on many teams just because someone won't stop firing off their immobilize.
The -KB from Frostbite has it's uses. I run an Ice/Storm troller, and the best way to do damage for that set is to use frostbite to lock the enemy down, then fire off a tornado into the group. The -KB makes it so the tornado doesn't throw enemies away, and thus causes a high DoT effect. This is just an example, but I am sure that other sets have combinations where the -KB effect is beneficial.
The best way to fix Ice Slick is to just tweak Ice Slick by itself. How to do that, I am not sure of, however.
Anyway, this is at the root of my complaint about the set. So much of its control centers on Ice Slick because there are few other options. And when you lose that control because of whatever reason, you're left scrambling for options. Pretty much every other control set has a couple other controls you can use.
Ice has Slick for range and AA for melee. Slick can be ruined by other powers in the set or by other teammates using their powers. It's a problem. I think the solution is to make some of the other powers better. The two biggest flops are Shiver and Flash Freeze. What if Flash Freeze was an AoE patch sleep like Electric? It could be a zone of cryogenic temperature that flash freezes anything that enters it.
Or for Shiver, give it some debuff like -range, or -dmg, or -to hit on top of its -spd and -rch. Maybe put a chance to hold in there. Or a fear effect. You're so cold you have to shiver in place cowering in fear. -
Quote:There was one escapee on my run. A few deaths. Worked out in the end, but I can see where if that team attempted the 'harder' trials it would've gotten ugly.Originally Posted by EU_Damz
I was on that baf i think
If its the one where my ice/cold corruptor Mr Damz was on anyway 
Edit: Though from what i saw, that baf i was on had almost no deaths i think and no prisoners escaped too so was a very smooth run imo -
Ran a BAF today with a bunch of people I don't know and it worked out well. Was a little rougher than I'm used to on Pinnacle and Virtue, but a success nonetheless.
From my POV, the issue I saw with the 3 teams was too much buff and blast, and not enough beef. Three teams with just 5 melees. The squishies were pulling the AVs for Pete's sake. Was standing there on my kin/rad def and wondering when the tank was going to go get Nightstar and/or Siege. They didn't. I think it was Snowglobe's blaster that went after Nightstar and got plastered.
That's no good. Need some balls-to-the-walls sack of HP to fetch the AVs next time. Unfortunately all my Triumph 50s are defenders and corruptors or I'd bring my own beef. Is this typical of Tri iTrials? -
Quote:Ahem. Then you'd have Earth Control.Originally Posted by Lxndr
I'd just like to see Flash Freeze turned into a disorient.
See how easy that was? -
Yes it needs buffing. That was my original point. Jack getting better is great. Now address the sleep, shiver and -kb of the aoe immobilize.
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Grav/Time is an awesome combo. /Time helps fill gravity's early control gaps and gravity has a great single target damage potential that can hammer at the targets you're slowing in your patch and with your aura.
I picked up Spring Attack for some AoE and so I can get into melee fast with my slow aura if needed. I can also use it for a double knockdown control right after a worm holed group I tossed into a corner tries to get to their feet. -
Here are some more reasons to have a ranged chain:
LB Spiner Wardens. Those quills they spit out just keep firing regardless of being held or not.
Multiple Tsoo Sorcerers. Ever get stuck in melee with them?
KoA and their stacked trops. Stay at range and they can't murder you.
CoT demon lords with their invulnerability. More enemies in melee the higher their defense.
CoT spectres with their Chill of Night aura. That stacked on you is horrendous.
Tsoo green inks. Those guys seem to come at you 6 deep and tossing whirling hands every few seconds. Stun, stun, stun.
Those squid heads in First Ward. They have Drain Psyche or something similar.
Freak super stunners. The -end rez they have only works in melee.
I could go on, but I think you get the picture. To me, I'd rather have some solid ranged attacks for these situations than taking a couple fluff defense powers that might someday get me to capped def to S/L. If you can max your def without gimping your leveling up, go for it. Or if you make it to 50 and get all slotted up and can respec, sure thing. But playing 40+ levels where I have no choice but to melee is a tougher road to hoe than it needs to be. -
For the folks supporting ice control as a strong set, I'd like to suggest one comparison:
Imagine Earth Control without Stalagmites and having some ranged -spd cone called Dust Storm instead. Now you'd have ice control.
Would you play it knowing your opener is now Earthquake from range or charge in and hit Salt Crystals? -
Quote:At level 50 with IOs and incarnates.Originally Posted by OneFrigidWitch
Probe/TK/psiwave/chains/judgement/sleet/storm here. More than enough awesome. Who the hell needs range when you can sit in the middle of damn near anything?
What about lvl 1-40 as you're leveling up? Plinking away with Dart and Cage won't cut it.
Oh and I'd like to see all you folks stand next to an AV with your melee bravado and show me why you don't need a ST ranged chain. -
Quote:I think you've identified the issues I have with the set. It's not that it doesn't work, it's that half the powers are easily skippable because they're weak or they conflict with the other half.Originally Posted by ToxicMantis
I've been playing an Ice/Ice Dom for the past few years.. I think. I have to say it's my fave toon, he rolls through PvE. I have to admit I only have the ST hold, Ice Slick, AoE Hold and AA from Ice/. I dont need the AoE Immob, everything is slowed down so much anyways, I wouldnt bother with shiver because I have too many other AoEs to throw down, I dont touch sleep, Jack isn't really useful unless you want slot mule. I find that /Icy/Ice really helps though, Chilling Embrace, Sleet, Frost Breath, ISC, Ice Storm help with that AoE and Slow.
I am IO'd out though, and there are much smarter builds but there is just something fun with this one. Being able to Power boost, Spring attack into the middle of a mob, survive the alpha and drop Glacier is a ton of fun. Yes, I do have 45.6% S/L defense, even more with PB. Sure the Ice/ part is quite weak but you can make it fit.. I love this toon, and I love how I am forced to be in the middle of the mob all the time for maximum potential, and when the mob is spread out and Glacier still hits everyone is just great. Also able to fit Hoarfrost into the build is just awesome.
When my toon got Perma-dom he got about 10x easier to play with the resistance to status effects because I usually take some aggro on a team. You really have to get bonuses to fit your play style to make it work.
There have been several suggestions here that would fix the situation and make the set much better and more competitive with the other control sets without ruining ice's position as king of slows. -
Sonic Resonance.
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I downloaded 12.1 the other day. No problems so far.
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What exactly is the attack chain? Dart, probe, tkt, box? Pretty weak. Dart does piddly amounts of dmg and tkt will keep knocking foes out of melee. Only good attack there is probe. And there's no ranged st chain at all. What happens when you need to fight from range? Dart and cage?
Some of these defense builds really confuse me. Give me control and damage any day. -
I think that applies to any AT. If you buff to help the lower levels then the top end becomes even more godlike.
The greater issue is enemy difficulty outpaces character ability in certain sections of the game. It seems the initial design had a difficulty boost introduce every 5 levels. This is largely invisible in the first 10 levels because of xp smoothing, beginners luck, and no debt. Then at lvl 15, most characters snag DOs for the first time and see a fairly large jump in power. But from 16-20, mobs get harder and powers are starving for slots and the initial wow of DOs has worn off. It's not until 22 when SOs can be slotted that characters catch up with mobs again. -
I have a 50 grav/ice/ice. She's all perma and incarnate now. But before that it was a strong build. You set up your attacks by WHing into a pile, hit them with damage proc'd CF and Frost Breath. Run in and hit ISC. Hack away with swords and ice blasts til they're dead. Or just WH into your lap and hit ISC.
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I don't know who that is, but my 50 +3 incarnate dominator is queuing his Tier 4 Void Judgement.
There's a lot of phat loot to be had nuking that group. -
As far as I'm concerned:
1) half the powers in ice can and typically are skipped because they're redundant or counteract other powers in the set
2) ice is the weakest of the control sets from top to bottom and every other set can CC better and in more situations
Sure, it could be left alone. But why when the tech and mechanics exist to fix it, plus the dev team seems on a roll for lining up sets to make better.
It's now while their eyes are on doms or wait a couple more years for the AT to re-enter the rotation. -
Quote:I don't mind the -kb, but it's the -kd that kills ice slick. I believe those two can be separated.Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
I like -knockback on my Ice/Storm controller, so I am against getting rid of that. Also, I hate Arctic Air. So making it even more of a lynchpin of the set for my Ice Doms will make me like the set less.
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Quote:Yeah, I've been digging Vigor as well. Acc and End are great. healing not so much unless you have something like DP. Most of the doms I have lack fear (darkness is going to fill that), but for a mind dom boosting those 3 is huge.Originally Posted by PowerLeveler
So, I was totally wrong about intuition. Paragonwiki is wrong, I should have checked in game. Intuition is hold, damage, range, radial adds defense debuff, to hit debuff and slows. The hold and damage is nice for mind/fire, everything else is eh. So take that one core. But Vigor! Vigor is Healing, Accuracy, Endurance Cost, and radial adds Fear Duration, Sleep Duration and Confusion Duration. The healing isn't much help, but everything else is. So either Nerve or Vigor, I'd say.
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Oh, and Miladys I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. I admire you standing up for Ice. I was an equally strong supporter of Gravity. However, even I could see the early control weaknesses in grav and can see that the tweaks are needed. I'm hoping Synapse goes far enough and swaps WH with DS. I then hope he has time to look at Ice and eventually Fire. Those older sets need some love, too, to compete with the stronger sets.
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Quote:Tex is making some good points. I started this thread to focus on Ice Control alone vs the other control sets. If you were to list all the control sets once Darkness is out and the Gravity tweaks are in, I can guarantee you that Ice will stand alone at the bottom.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
While it's possible slotting fear in the power changes how it works, I have personally never seen Arctic Air make an enemy cower. It's possible I just wasn't looking for it. However, the Afraid effect should cause them to try to run away, not cower. This is the same effect that is in Hot Feet and was in the previous version of Burn that causes enemies to scatter. Looking at Mids, I can't actually tell if slotting Fear enhancements increases Afraid duration, so I'd have to verify that in game.
And I'm sorry, but having totally different slotting options depending on whether it's the Controller or Dominator version is either a bug, or a design "feature" needs to be changed. I'm leaning heavily toward "bug" myself. The fact that the bug has existed for a long time is not relevant. I doubt most people were are even aware of it. An Ice/Fire Dominator is my main character and I didn't even know that slotting was possible, because it stands in contrast to the Controller power and against every other Afraid causing power in the game that I can think of, because Afraid is normally not enhanceable (see Spectral Terror for an example of Terrify in the same power as Afraid).
That has nothing to do with this discussion, because those Blasters aren't a control AT whose primary means of Control is avoiding getting detoggled, while competing with other Control sets that don't share the same vulnerability. Flashfire, Volcanic Gasses, Synaptic Overload, and so on, do not stop working if you get mezzed. Hot Feet and Electric's drain aura do, but are not a first line control. This discussion is about the various ways Ice Control lags behind other Control sets. What a Blaster is able to do with a damage toggle is not relevant.
The fact is, Ice Control is a night and day set depending on whether you obtain mezz protection, and yes, that is a balance concern relative to other Control sets. I like playing my Ice characters because I completed that hurdle. I think they are pretty good next to my other characters now that they are IOed and incarnated. The path there was another story.
Again, half its powers can be skipped NOT because the other half are so awesome, but because they contradict each other or are redundant. Slows are not alpha control options and do nothing to mitigate first strikes. Ice Slick is highly overrated as a primary control.
I'm not trying to slam the set. I am trying to get the set looked at and brought up to par with Earth, Mind, Electric, Plant, etc. Improving flash freeze would help. Improving shiver would help. Preventing powers from canceling each other would help. Broadening the control and debuff abilities would minimize redundancy. Nothing that has been suggested here would hurt the set and none of it would make it OP. The suggestions so far would only enhance Ice and make it more appealing to more players.
If Ice is so great as is and doesn't need any buffs, then it would rank at the top of the list. Go ahead and look at its competition and tell me it's in the top half:
Darkness*
Ice
Earth
Electric
Fire
Gravity
Illusion**
Mind
Plant
* still in BETA, but here's a video of my lowbie lvl 8 using 4 early powers to great effect
** controllers only, so it may be harder to compare here
IMO, ice, gravity and fire are the bottom 3 in terms of control ability with ice in last place. The grav tweaks will make that set better and if they decide to swap DS and WH, it'll be great. Fire is superior to ice with Flashfire vs Flash freeze, Hot Feet vs AA, Imps vs Jack, the holds and immobs being even. The leaves Bonfire and Smoke vs Ice Slick and Shiver. I call those toss-ups depending on the situation. And unlike ice, fire control can actually take advantage of its immob -kb by pairing it with bonfire. Try that with ice immobs and ice slick. You'll see just how weak -rech is vs death. -
I'm a fan of Cardiac. End redux, dmg resist boost and range boost. Who can't use more end redux really? Sure you're perma and you get the refill of end every POP, but reduced end costs will help while dom is recharging. Dmg resist is good.. assuming you have resist shield. Range will give you an extra 20% to all your powers. Who couldn't use that?
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Lumping in your secondary makes a huge difference. Saying an ice/rad or ice/storm or ice/cold are great doesn't convince me it's due to ice control. Those secondaries are top debuff and controlling sets.
I'm looking at ice and only ice. The powers in the set contradict each other. Slows are great 'soft' control, but do nothing to stop alphas and only impact followup attacks. That's not so good when you're dead or mezzed from the incoming volley.
What is ice control's #1 anti-alpha power? Ice Slick. And you have to use that from around a corner to avoid getting shot. Then there's flash freeze, which has short range and causes damage and gets you shot in the face. Shiver? Sure. They'll be nice and slow. Right after they shoot you in the face. You could run in and hit Glacier. Hopefully they don't see you coming and shoot you in the face.
I've played ice control to 50 on 2 different doms. The primary tactic is hide around a corner. Drop ice slick from cover. Then charge in with AA running and attack with AoEs. But don't use the immob because the mobs will stop falling. Forget about shiver because you'll miss everyone with that cone. Sleep will get broken with the knockdown. Knockback tosses them off of slick.
Just because it can be made to work or combined with such and such secondary doesn't make it a good control set. And the fact you can comfortably skip half the power set and not even miss it tells you all about its weakness. Chilblain, Flash Freeze, Shiver, and the AoE imob are all pointless. That leaves Ice Slick, BoI, Glacier, AA, and Jack. And if you look at slick's weaknesses, glacier's long recharge, AA's end costs, and Jack getting rocked every fight there's plenty of room for improvement.
I'm not saying the set should be gutted. But it should be made better. The tech and the mechanics are now in game to buff ice control to put it on par with the top control sets. -
I think you need to take another look at what ice control does wrong:
A sleep that's broken by the kd of ice slick.
A sleep that aggros because it causes damage.
A patch kd that is prevented by the immob -kb.
A patch kd that doesn't stop fliers and jumpers.
A patch kd that pulses its kd so slowly it doesn't stop sprinting mobs from running right over it.
A cone sleep that begs 'shoot me' as soon as you use it and does nothing to blunt the return alpha.
A PB AoE soft control that's an end hog, doesn't confuse all that much, slows the confused targets so they attack each other maybe once, and requires you to be in 'punch me in the face range'.
A pet that has a glass jaw.
A PB AoE hold on an eternally long recharge.
An entire set that relies on slows to get the job done, guaranteeing at least one alpha at full strength. -
I was just going to say make Flash Freeze a patch sleep like electric's but you beat me to it.
If that one change was made, Ice would be twice as good as it is now. Ditch the damage and make it a pulsing sleep. This way it could work with Ice Slick. They'd get slept, then fall down. Wake up. Sleep again. Fall down again.
I'd also like to see Shiver's utility increased. The Cold Snap idea is based on the Impact mechanic, so I could see that working here. Or apply something more than a -rch -spd debuff. Maybe -end, -rec, -reg or some combination. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of shiver being a cone end drain power. The air is so cold you have your energy drained away. The size of the cone could be reduced to compensate if that's too OP.
I'd like Ice Slick to cause some minor smashing dmg to falling targets to replace the loss of FF's damage. Would give is some targeted AoE slotted options as well.
Such changes would put Ice Control on equal footing with the other control sets. Why should earth, mind, plant and elec get all the fun? Ice needs love. Gravity needs love. And even fire could use some upward tweaking.
Remember that control sets took some major hits back around I5 when the AoEs were hammered with targets caps and increased recharge penalties. Control needs to regain some of that lost power by increasing the utility of the various powers and allowing them to synergize better within a set.