Dalghryn

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I think we are in agreement about the main issue, but I think it took a little while to clarify what that issue was. Not helped by our antagonistic stances :-)

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I agree.

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But, don't misunderstand: I think you were just stating the obvious, and I don't think there was any need to do so since I don't think you added anything. So while I agree that the devs have good intentions, I still think there was no point in starting this thread to say that.

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What might be obvious to you and me isn't necessarily obvious to a lot of people that post on these boards. There are many people that have flamed, and probably will flame the devs when you and I are both likely to think it's out of line.

I wasn't really trying to add anything new. Like so many other issues brought up on these boards more than once, I was just trying to reinforce a point with a little personal observation.

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I hope you understand that I don't mean that in a deragatory way: and of course, I'm happy to be disagreed with.

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Yep, understood completely. I bet everyone else is happy we're happy, too.

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Absolutely. But wouldn't it have been worse if we'd gotten into this F2F? Since I'm not an American, and I don't live in the US, you have the advantage over me with your right to bear arms :-)

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I don't think it would have been worse. I hold my own when engaged in text-based banter, but I'm much better in person. I think we'd have worked through our miscommunication very easily in person, if we'd have had it at all. And, while I am an American, and as I pointed out elsewhere I don't necessarily hold to everything that our country, and our current administration, hold to. My occupation aside, I much prefer using my wit and wisdom over any physical force.

My guess is that we'd get along swimmingly.

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If there is anything to be added to the thread, please do: we can always flame the other people together then...

[/ QUOTE ]Um... O.K., but remember, you told me I could.

What really gets to me is the complete level of miscommunication that went on to start out with, for a variety of reasons, on both parts. Particularly after reading your last post, it really seems as if we're basically in agreement. That happens somewhat regularly around here, too. Yet another downside of electronically typed communication.

Anyway... and this will definitely get a "Huh!?" from folks since it might appear on its face to be contrary to what I've been saying... I really think that the devs should have taken at least a moment to respond - in some way - to the Reeve thread. Just in terms of sheer volume and participation, much of the argument and repetetive discussion/flaming could have been avoided with a simple reply of some kind. I'm not blaming them at all. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the issue wasn't dead, but just being worked on. But that was one instance where I think they may have dropped a communications ball.

Ok, now I'm arguing against myself. Or am I? I'm so confused...

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Alright, I'm up for a neutral rephrasing...

[/ QUOTE ]And a fine job we both seem to have done, too. I had thought about addressing a couple of specifics in your latest post, but I appreciate the effort so much that I hate to risk losing mutually-gained ground.

Thanks for meeting me part of the way. I'll try not to be so Polly Annaish in the future.

Archimedes, thanks for the post. While I don't necessarily agree with all of it, your points are well made and totally without any snide or sarcastic aspersions or personal attacks against the OP (in this case, myself).

That said, I am beginning to have a much greater understanding of the phrase "No good deed goes unpunished."

Rather than continue this battle of wills between myself and a couple of others who could learn a lot from Archimedes' style, I decided to re-write my original post. Realizing that anything I said could be twisted and taken out of context against me, I made notes. On reading them, I just decided that I'd post as is. So, without further adieu...

"I've been accused by more than my share of... CoH critics... of being what they term a "Fanboi." Ack! Dump that reference immediately! Instead of seeing this as enthusiastic metaphor, they're going to use this as a means of justifying the negation of any valid point you make. Based on what I understand, that means that I'm supposedly someone that will come to the defense of Statesman and the other CoH powers that be, developers, and so on under any circumstances, without thought. A mind-numbed puppet of some kind, loyal to the game creators through thick and thin. You planted the seed, stupid. That's exactly what they'll claim you are by writing this post.

While that just isn't right, How about just telling them what you do. Maybe that'll give you some credibility. No, it's in your profile if they cared to look, and they'd probably choose to dislike your opinions even more because of it. Maybe you should use a specific where you disagreed with the fact that the developers did not respond to a thread, such as the recent Christopher Reeve mega-thread. Oh, no, wait... Don't bring that one up. You were being positive on that one, too. More fodder for the detractors there, kinda like the halloween thing. I believe I recognize the efforts and the intent behind the creation of this game and its development and I'm quite willing to give the benefit of the doubt and think the best because of that. If that makes me a Fanboi, fine by me. There's that 'fanboi' reference again, you idiot. Talk about ammo. Just say that you realize they aren't perfect, since no one but a couple of the detractors are, and that you try to think that the benefit of the doubt is in order. Wait... you've said that, half a dozen times.

That said, I just got back from the Wizard World Convention in Arlington, Texas. While there, I met "Statesman" and several of the other employees that bring us this game. I can tell you something right now. If I wasn't a Fanboi before, I am now. You fool!

Putting a face to the names would be a mind-changer for even the most die-hard critic, especially THESE faces. I spent a large part of the convention just hanging at their booth, talking, discussing, and even joining in some of the explanation to people that hadn't played the game.

These people are genuine, folks. They have nothing but the best interest of us, the CoH gamers, at heart, and they are "just good folks." They do pay attention, to us, these boards, and our thoughts, concerns and ideas. I was very surprised at just how much they knew about what's going on in these threads, and just how what some of what is said affects them. Give specifics. Mention the threads they brought up, and exactly how what they said convinced you that they were on top of things. No, why bother? The people that understand your point don't need it. The others will take sometihng else out of context or ignore it.

I've read threads where people have accused Statesman and company of lying, deceiving, misleading, or worse, and I can say with much certainty that they don't lie to us. They don't deceive us. They don't deliberately mislead us. They do try to make this the best game, for the most people that they can. They may not always please everyone, but if they don't, it's not out of some evil malice, or any kind of corporate greed. Careful here, while based on good reasoning, it's your opinion and they'll eat you up on this. Oh, and watch the terminology, they'll use it against you even when it has no valid reason except to jab.

I've given my kudos before, and I'm giving kudos again. We're I not a believer, this convention would have made me one. I just wish more of you could have been there. Keep in mind that you sound like a cheerleeder. If you'd intersperse some negative and nasty things about them in between the good stuff you probably won't be accused of being a PR plant. You know, Dal, why don't you just retract the post. If you'd wanted to be personally attacked for an honest, if overly Mary Poppinsish opinion, you could get into politics."

So there you have it. I take it all back. Those of you that see my point in context didn't need to see me type it. The rest, fortunately a minority, wouldn't want to get it if they could.

Note to self: No more original posts. Your hair is grey enough as it is.

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Hiya..


See ya in Anaheim!

Tisirin

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Holy bajesus. Statesman and co. in Anaheim?! I MUST GO!

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So when's the bus coming to Scranton, PA?
... *looks around at the blank stares*...

Awwh C'mon!

[/ QUOTE ]OK, I'll bite. Might the reference have something to to with 30,000 pounds of bananas?

OK, I'm totally lost. Maybe, if I try real hard, I can see where your rather lengthy... post... ties in to my original, but just barely. In an attempt to see how it fits, and to re-direct the post back where it was intended, let's look at a couple of things.

You're not reaching for understanding in this statement, you're reaching to label me as incoherrant while what I stated was double-proof read to ensure clarity. Karon is right, you're selling others short as soon as you notice they don't agree with you.

With all due respect, while incoherant wasn't exacly the word I would have used, "confusing" would work solidly enough. You can proof read until doomsday, and it can make perfect sense to you without making the same sense to a reader. Aside from the fact that you took my thread way off topic, what you said was confusing at best.

First, there is a difference between being ignored and not being replied to. NCSoft does not use volunteer board monitors. Everyone that reads these boards is paid. They do not use volunteers for liability reasons that I won't go into here, but perhaps you'll take my word for the fact they're very valid.

That's nothing like what I said. I referrenced Blizzard because they would almost NEVER reply on their boards. Yet I could track the nuances and suggestion on the boards that later made it into the game. IE: you could see player feedback was being used even if there was no signs or thumbs-up about it on the boards from the Devs.

Player feedback is being used by the developers all the time. You can find examples of it all over the boards. If your feedback is being "ignored", I'd suggest that there's a bigger reason, and maybe.. just maybe... they're actually looking at it. My guess is that, whatever your feedback, the idea has been presented elsewhere. In any case, a lack of reply doesn't mean your idea's being ignored. It means they didn't reply. It's that easy.

They do read these boards, and they take many of the comments to heart and try to incorporate them, or at least look into the feasibility of doing so. Others simply don't work in the grand scheme.

And THIS is exactly how I disagree with your original post. You talked to them about stuff that all of us already know, but you drew from that some foundation that they are listening to us a lot more than we think they are while my observations say the complete opposite. As I said, they're doing every just great except for this. And I'll be glad to elaborate on it again as you seem to have skimmed over it the first time...

Let me clarify, then. I talked to them about the boards. They assured me that every post is read, and gave me several examles of specifics that proved tom me that they were very likely telling the truth. As I told Karon, you can either choose to believe I have the ability to discern the difference between someone that's being honest and someone that isn't as you like. I have no intention of rehashing every nuance of my friendly chats. I didn't go to the convention to take notes. I went to enjoy myself.

They are NOT feigning interest. They are simply NOT wasting valuable time answering a gazillion posts and are directing their resources where everyone that whines calims to want the resources directed. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

..Wasn't saying they should answer everything. At one point they were answering TOO MUCH as I too believe they shouldn't direct that level of Resources towards responding on the boards. But Responding to the boards at all isn't what I'm asking for either. I clearly said that Balance Feedback from the players is being ignored, especially when compared to the volumn of activity and progress in all other areas that Cryptic has with all of their fans and this game.

Everyone can watch huge known Balance issues take a back seat to everything from marketing to unnessesary effects/Aesthetic rewards. Especially on the Test Server where player feedback about difficulty and balance has always been ignored and the patch flys right onto the Live servers complete with borked and underpowered/overpowered gameplay alterations, almost as if no one had said anything at all about it at all. ...But quick perusal of not just the Test Server forum, but AT forums too reveals dozens of threads from concerned players that give a very good picture at where the community stands on them. And then many Imbalances remain on live for an astounding duration even after the few small voices grow into a louder majority of the opinions expressed. And that's exactly why I discredit this "PCC", it deals with everything BUT Balance and Fairness diverting resources away from these issues that the Majority of forum regulars and General/AT-Board posters are more concerned with.

For every one of these "dozens of threads" that you mention, there are as many that discuss ideas that have been incorporated, are already acknowledged as being looked into, or are likely being looked into. And balance is in the eye of the beholder. What may seem a balance issue to you - and prehaps some others - will probably not be a balance issue to just as many others. Without looking at each thread you've been involved with, I hesitate to suggest specifics, but I'd tend to think your "majorities" become much less so when compared with a total review of the boards. I know I've been involved in several threads where there have been marked differences as to what one side thought was a balance issue and the otehr didn't. Most every "issue" has an opposite. Why are yours necessarily right? And even if they are on their face, there could be any number of reasons what they can't be changed at any given time. They have no reason not to fix a real balance problem. It's their job.

The fact that you admit to having been repeatedly banned in another game should tell you something. Obviously, it doesn't. There are far too many people posting on these boards that believe that they were created on the eighth day and that the universe revolves around them. Hijacking a thread with a rant that has little to do with the OP is typical of these people... and probably explains a lot.

Pot Kettle Black... You talked to the man for a very short time and suddenly you have more insight than all of us? If not, then why did you make this thread?

How often have you talked to them face to face? Seen their enthusiasm, their commitment? Watched them as they talked or explained some nuance of the game to a newcomer. These weren't sales people. These were people that believed what they were doing. My point in starting this thread was to put a face to the names, so some people that tended toward griping first might think a little longer, or in the very least remember some things like common courtesy. I don't claim that they're perfect. Neither would they. But there are far too many people on these boards that couldn't develop their way out of a paper bag that think they have every answer, and treat the people that do the work like lower life. I simply hoped that I could convey some sense of the reality of the people we're alwsy talking about.

I obviously failed with you and Karon, as I'd likely fail with others like you. Such is life.

But unlike the developers, who do consider everything you say, I would have chosen to really ignore you afterward.
Now, can we have the thread back?

No they aren't considering everything and that's exactly why red herring about me hijacking your thread is threatenign to make this into a flame thread. Please tone the arrogance down a notch and face the fact that not everyone finds them as infallible as you. They are great, but they've also earned criticism repeatedly on their Balance Policies.

[color=yellow] I choose to believe based on my observations that they are considering everything people say. Just because they don't act on it, or haven't appeared to act on it, or bowed at the feet of someone who feels the need to tell them how to do a job that is much more complicated than most of the complainers can comprehend, does not mean it isn't considered. I don't find them infallible. I find that they've done an overall superb job. I find that their job is much more complicated than I can imagine. I find that, again, because of what I've read, and seen, I'll give them far more trust before I voice a concern than many folks do. If you find me arrogant, such is life. Many other people don't. Like the many issues you believe are balance failures that others have no problem with, it's a matter of perspective.

The bottom line for this thread is, all these points have been cussed and discussed dozens of times. If you wanted to disagree with me, wonderful, it's a free country, but in my opinion it becomes a hijack when you fall into a diatribe about specifics that completely obscure the focus of the original post.

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I don't think I understand the purpose of your post, or this thread.

Are you using it to justify shooting down alternate viewpoints if they're not complimentary to CoH? (when you said that if you weren't a fanboi before, you are now)

Are you using it to say that because you met these people, they must necessarily be a) telling the truth, and b) completely trustworthy in future? (Using only the fact that you talked to them and they didn't tell you anything you didn't already know)

Or are you just trying to say that anyone who has a less-than-perfect view of CoH must think that it's because Statesman et al are doing it out of 'some evil malice' (is there any other kind? a nice malice?) or 'corporate greed'?

It seems to me that you're just crowing about having gone to a conference?

Karon

[/ QUOTE ]You know, I wonder if you're a griefer in-game. Seems like you're just following me around and attacking every opinion I hold. Fine by me, Karon, I'm always for giving out a little happiness, and if taking a stance against me does that, bring it on.

I'm certainly not using it to justify shooting down alternate viewpoints. If you'd read my last post... excuse me.. comprehended it... since that seems to be your thing, you'd have understood that I was making reference to criticism that is leveled without consideration for the person on the other end, and typically without any attempt or ability to understand a bigger picture.

Without crowing, I've been in a business for 21 years that offers a unique perspective on people, and has taught me more skills on reading people than most people gather in a lifetime. I am not so naive as to believe that anyone is an angel simply because they act like one. However, I do have enough ability to get a good feel. You can take that or leave it. I have a funny feeling you'll prefer to leave it.

Under most circumstances, I tend to trust in a person's good intentions. My having met some of the people that work for this game only reinforced that.

It's easy to be disrespectful and rude when you're on the other end of a monitor. I find that many people tend to be more open-minded and understanding of people that have a face. If someone proves themself unworthy of respect, then I'll typically support whatever they deserve. I just tend to think many people on this board attack simply because they're anonymous and feel safe tossing respect out the tubes.

And, no, I wasn't crowing at all. But you're welcome to see it as such.

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I guess I'm just not seeing the point of this post. I doubt very many players or posters ever really believed the CoH team was a pack of greedy liars. As well, I'm quite certain we're all convinced these guys want the best for everyone: company and customers alike...

[/ QUOTE ]Maybe your 292 posts haven't been in the same kind of threads I've been reading. I'm constantly seeing posts where players are disrespectfully criticizing the game, or worse, Statesman and the staff, developers and all.

I'm not talking about constructive criticism - though in my opinion if people would be more realistic and have a greater understanding of the whole there might be less of that - I'm talking about mean spirited or personal attacks and criticism.

The majority of players probably aren't that way, but spend much time on the boards, and you'll see there are many that are. So do Statesman and his team, though they don't bring it up here. And whether the whiners care or not, some of the unwarranted or uncaring attacks, comments and criticisms hurt.

The point of this thread is to point out to those people out there that might think otherwise that there are real people behind the names, real people that you'd be likely to hang with if you knew them, and the real people care.

OK, now that we've dealt with forced digression, let's get back to square one. Anyone else out there go to Wizard, or have any other personal contact that sheds light on the real folks behind our favorite game... or at least many of our favorite game?

OK, I'm totally lost. Maybe, if I try real hard, I can see where your rather lengthy... post... ties in to my original, but just barely. In an attempt to see how it fits, and to re-direct the post back where it was intended, let's look at a couple of things.

First, there is a difference between being ignored and not being replied to. NCSoft does not use volunteer board monitors. Everyone that reads these boards is paid. They do not use volunteers for liability reasons that I won't go into here, but perhaps you'll take my word for the fact they're very valid.

That said, while some employees are paid to monitor and direct, like Cuppajo, most of the one you talk about are paid to develop the content that some people on these boards so frequently complain about. Taking time to respond to every legitimate post, let alone every whine and complaint, would demand that they do nothing but read these boards and reply. They do read these boards, and they take many of the comments to heart and try to incorporate them, or at least look into the feasibility of doing so. Others simply don't work in the grand scheme.

They are NOT feigning interest. They are simply NOT wasting valuable time answering a gazillion posts and are directing their resources where everyone that whines calims to want the resources directed. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

The fact that you admit to having been repeatedly banned in another game should tell you something. Obviously, it doesn't. There are far too many people posting on these boards that believe that they were created on the eighth day and that the universe revolves around them. Hijacking a thread with a rant that has little to do with the OP is typical of these people... and probably explains a lot.

I had time to respond, so I did. If it had been a choice of doing that or developing more and better content and playability for CoH and CoV, I probably wouldn't have.

But unlike the developers, who do consider everything you say, I would have chosen to really ignore you afterward.

Now, can we have the thread back?

Sorry, I didn't take notes. We chatted, a lot, about the game as it stands, and where it's come from, but I didn't press for anything about what's coming. During the conversations I touched on things like the "Level 50 Endgame" hooplah and the server transfer thing, but not in any way that required a direct answer.

So all I can say is, they are committed to keeping their players happy (and I said "players" not "customers" - they very convincingly think of all of us as people they are serving, not numbers on a server), and I got the impression that meant everyone - Level one to level 50. And I also got the impression that server transfers were very much being looked at.

Neither of these are earth shattering, but I wasn't going for earth shattering. Maybe someone else will report back with that. I simply feel like I made some friends and built even more trust in the people that are providing me so much entertainment for so little bucks.

I've been accused by more than my share of... CoH critics... of being what they term a "Fanboi." Based on what I understand, that means that I'm supposedly someone that will come to the defense of Statesman and the other CoH powers that be, developers, and so on under any circumstances, without thought. A mind-numbed puppet of some kind, loyal to the game creators through thick and thin.

While that just isn't right, I believe I recognize the efforts and the intent behind the creation of this game and its development and I'm quite willing to give the benefit of the doubt and think the best because of that. If that makes me a Fanboi, fine by me.

That said, I just got back from the Wizard World Convention in Arlington, Texas. While there, I met "Statesman" and several of the other employees that bring us this game. I can tell you something right now. If I wasn't a Fanboi before, I am now.

Putting a face to the names would be a mind-changer for even the most die-hard critic, especially THESE faces. I spent a large part of the convention just hanging at their booth, talking, discussing, and even joining in some of the explanation to people that hadn't played the game.

These people are genuine, folks. They have nothing but the best interest of us, the CoH gamers, at heart, and they are "just good folks." They do pay attention, to us, these boards, and our thoughts, concerns and ideas. I was very surprised at just how much they knew about what's going on in these threads, and just how what some of what is said affects them.

I've read threads where people have accused Statesman and company of lying, deceiving, misleading, or worse, and I can say with much certainty that they don't lie to us. They don't deceive us. They don't deliberately mislead us. They do try to make this the best game, for the most people that they can. They may not always please everyone, but if they don't, it's not out of some evil malice, or any kind of corporate greed.

I've given my kudos before, and I'm giving kudos again. We're I not a believer, this convention would have made me one. I just wish more of you could have been there.

Let's quit dissing all players of level 50 characters based on the opinions of one OP, or even a couple, shall we? Out of all the folks that may have reached that level, and may reach it in the future, there is no evidence to suggest that this OP's opinion is at all representative of the group. There are many people that enjoy the content, and look on their later levels as opportunities to role play, help other players, roll alts, or do any number of things that make them quite happy between updates.

If you're going to dis an opinion, qualify it properly, huh?

I've laughed, I've groaned, I've screamed, I've cussed. What a great thread. The OP is so lucky to have all of you. I've been so entertained that my entire almost-scathing reply has vanished.

Perhaps my outlook differs from many in that, when I buy a game, I expect it to end. When it does, I may be disappointed - any good game (like any good book) should leave you wanting more - but all good things end.

If the developers choose to expand so that as the character-base ages, the game content expands, that's icing on the cake - a sequel to the book you hadn't expected or paid for. They never said that your $39.99 and $14.99 per month entitled anyone to new content through infinity.

If I get to fifty and find myself bored, I'll quit. I'll thank the developers on these boards and leave, hoping for a new "book" that might entertain me as much as this one did. I don't think I'll get there, though... quiting, that is. For $15.00, I'll never find what amounts to all the entertainment I can eat anywhere else.

Hm... now I wonder if I can write J.R.R. Tolkein's estate and gripe them into bringing him back from the dead to write the LoTR sequel...

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I've played RP games on-line for decades, (yes, I'm THAT old...

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Biting my tounge on this comment...

[/ QUOTE ]Hm, you got my attention. I'll rephrase... I've been playing RPGs for decades, including Champions and the original Dungeons and Dragons (yes, I'm THAT old), and online RPG's since MUDs first hit the usenet and AOL started it's free form RPG forums.

Better?

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AMBUSH BUG!!!! How could I have missed that when thinking up a cool character!? Hats off to you for the avatar sir.

[/ QUOTE ]My sentiments exactly, by the way.

100% agreed. I've played RP games on-line for decades (yes, I'm THAT old), and have rarely had this much fun. As I've said in other threads, and will say in every thread they post... Kudos, Devs! Awesome job!

I guess I'll just have to check one of them out and see if it's been changed to an an outdoor mission now or something.

Since I'm one notch from hitting 27 which will require buying and placing all new enhancements, plus all the other new goodies (like the cape mission I hear is a killer), it may be a while - especially since I have to work so late.

I looked at 16 pages of thread titles and, to my surprise (and worry), didn't find anything that looked like this, so...

When I logged in after DLing the patch and watched with a grin as my badges were assigned, I noticed that it seemed I was short a few. I checked with my contacts, several of whom had nothing for me last night, and found that I've been re-assigned some of the missions I've already completed.

Am I just hallucinating? Have I gone nuts? Is it just me, or is anyone else experiencing the same thing?

Unfortunately, tonight was the one night during the week I couldn't play (this was on a short lunch break), so I get to miss all the invasion fun. Hopefully I won't have to re-do missions on top of it. Not blaming Cryptic for their timing, but damn the luck anyway!