DSorrow
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Posts
2433 -
Joined
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It just sucks.
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I'll offer one last response relevant to the discussion before I degrade into pointless posts trying to derail this thread. I do this because if you are not going to address what I'm trying to say, I won't bother trying to address what you have to say*.
What you are trying to prove:
Against a known number of DPS, certain number of Regen and Defense work interchangeably when survivability is in question. Your conclusion: Regen equals Defense in survivability. I only dispute this when we take burst damage into account.
What we are actually interested in, and what you refuse to see:
We are interested in the immortality lines of characters. That is to say, we're interested in modifying the maximum DPS we can sustain indefinitely. In all cases (except when exceeding the soft cap), additional Defense does this better, because it changes the maximum sustainable DPS as a multiplicative function of the previous maximum DPS. When dealing with high figures of DPS, multiplying it by a figure (call this figure A) will always result in a bigger change than adding something close to A to it.
TL;DR version. No one is interested in whether adding either 5% Defense or 15HP/sec is going to increase their survivability against an incoming DPS of 500. People are interested in whether adding either 5% Defense or 15HP/sec is going to result in a higher maximum sustainable incoming DPS.
*Disclaimer: Alcohol may have something to do with this. -
Quote:And this is exactly the point. How do I know what kind of DPS a random spawn of, say, Rikti is going to put out? What should I consider the average DPS a random group of any enemy type deals?Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
<snip>
You can do quite easily test the other calculations, simply imput 299 and 301 DPS. When you put in 301, regardless of initial defence, Defence is better. At 299, regardless of intial defence, Regen is better.
This is why we always just consider incoming DPS high, and just use the survivability line.
And to be perfectly honest, I'd bet in a large majority of the cases it is easier to get 5% Defense than 15hp/sec when you're at 40% Defense. I'd argue it is much easier to get 5% more Defense no matter what the position. And this is only when looking at DPS figures of 300 DPS before Defense/Resistance. It's not even that much.
What you seem to be missing here is what we're trying to stress. When calculating the benefits of Defense, people are generally more interested in the relative increase of survivability, because that's how Defense works.
ETA: You should also consider the effects of Regen and Defense in practical terms. Which one is easier to achieve, very high Defense or very high regen? Defense is most of the time the way to go because against very high figures of DPS it always provides better returns than Defense, and against lower numbers it either provides comparable results, or it simply doesn't matter which one you choose, meaning Defense is the way to go. These two things combined make Defense the choice of a survivalist. -
Quote:QFT.Originally Posted by UberGuy
The key sticking point is that no one is interested in damage this low.
I cannot stress this point enough.
When building characters, I'm not interested in absolute differences between the DPS figures of group A and group B. I'm interested in their relative damage differences, because this is much more practical. This is why Defense soft cap is a primary objective and decent regen is secondary. Regen deals with absolute differences modified by the relation of Defense and incoming DPS whereas Defense just modifies the relative incoming DPS. If I know I'm taking in 5% of the incoming DPS no matter how high it is, I don't have to worry about numbers that are low enough that bumping Regen might be the better choice. -
Quote:I think the point Bunny is trying to make is this:Originally Posted by Emberly
Similarly, in order to live twice as long by increasing regeneration, you must double regeneration.
Assume we have character A who regens 100hp/sec. Assume he has 40% Defense and 0% Resistance. Assume he has 1000HP. Assume he confronts enemy group B who deals as a collective 101DPS if they hit 10% of the time.
He dies in 1000HP / (101DPS - 100HPS) = 1000 seconds.
In order to double his survivability to 2000 seconds, he needs to add 0.5 HPS of regen, which is not double. Then again, he'd need less than 1% of Defense to get the same effect. Maybe I should try with numbers that aren't as close to each other, but I won't bother.
It's just a shame mitigation isn't this simple. This only works if we know what the DPS of the enemy is going to be when planning a build. That's why the survivability line calculations are practical.
P.S. If I'm totally mistaken in everything I posted in this post, please take into account I've drunk more wine than what is healthy. Thank you. -
As far as I know, the second wave of respecs is supposed to be launched on the 8th.
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Quote:I'd say you could relatively easily (price is another thingOriginally Posted by NICKisdaBeast
OK forum goers! Nick is back for moar answers!
Hurro people of the great FORUM COMMUITY!
I am REALLY aching to roll a Kinetic Melee/Dark Armor Scrappa, however.. Dark Armor... scary. Will this work well? WILL I LIVE! Can I softcap muh defense?! Will I have enough end to NEVER STOP? I sure as heck hope so. Get back to me PLEASE either ingame via tell or email to @Nick is Epik with your opinions. Also if you have a build, post it! It never hurts.
Thanks PPL!
Nick
@Nick is Epik
) get 32.5% S/L/E/NE Defense and soft cap with one small purple when needed. Alternatively, you could get around 30% Def to those 4 types and use Shadow Meld to soak alpha strikes and let OG/CoF take care of the spawn. Endurance could be an issue if you go with Shadow Meld.
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Just interested, did you actually respec into the I19 Maneuvers build? I haven't got around to respeccing yet because I haven't had time to do calculations for the sustainability.
I tried something very unscientific (using my current build against a Pylon with Sprint toggled on) out and based on that I'd claim the build is sustainable indefinitely against non-sapping foes, but I'm not sure.
No problem about the builds, by the way, I'm trying to help myself out as much as everyone else.
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I'm actually going to say that even if I could get enough regen to equal my survivability increase from 40% Def to 45% Def (assuming I had 40% Def), and actually had to make a choice between the two, I'd pick the 5% Defense, because it is more valuable than the Regen. Sure, the Regen helps just as much against sustained damage, but the Defense also helps me against burst damage. Burst will happen, I know from experience and I know enough maths that I don't have to calculate every distinct scenario where burst might happen and what the odds for it happening are. Point I'm trying to make: the last 5% of Defense count for a lot when you factor in burst damage.
If you want to deal with numbers in a complete vacuum and dismiss facts, sure, do it, I won't stop you. The thing is that your approach isn't practical. Any build I'm rolling doesn't up with just the Defense soft cap. It also ends up with decent regen or a heal, to the point where additional regen bonuses aren't worth looking for. Regen bonuses are quite prevalent in many sets, particularly Defense and Heal IO sets.
In the end, the survivability line method is much more practical way of going about the stuff most people in this forum are interested. -
Quote:Didn't check the spreadsheet because I don't have time for a thorough analysis, but based on what you said in this quote I'll give my response.Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
You may set the difference in defence to be, for example, 25%, and then it will examine the difference between moving from 0 to 25%, and 20 to 45%. You'll notice that it doesn't matter. The point in fact is that you can select anything under the cap and it doesn't matter. Being close, or being far, from the soft cap is irrelevant
There is no myth. It depends whether we're talking about absolute or relative increase in performance. When talking about absolute change in performance it is irrelevant if we're close to or far from the soft cap. If we're talking about relative increase in performance, it is far from being irrelevant.
Consider this: To halve damage at 0% Defense you need either 50% Resistance or 25% Defense (in 99% of the cases this applies for Defense). To halve incoming damage at 40% Defense it's again 50% Resistance or 5% Defense, making Defense much more "effective" when we're near the soft cap.
EDIT: Same applies, of course, for Resistance. The closer we are to the Resistance hard cap, the less Resistance we need compared to Defense (if Defense is reducing less incoming damage) for a relative increase in survivability. -
Quote:I'd rather do 10 minutes of less enjoyable stuff daily to be able to do hours of enjoyable stuff after that than not do any of that less enjoyable stuff, and thus make my own gaming experience overall much less enjoyable. What am I talking about? Marketeering, of course. I use the market at the beginning of each play session for about 10-15 mins to list bids, craft and list stuff and collect sales, and at the end of each play session I just sell drops.Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Used to be, there were no recipes to sell, no Wentworths. Even after it appeared, I was more interested in being a superhero than a trader, so I tended to just sell everything to stores. Until, that is, I got one or two high price recipes (Poistron's Blast, as I recall). After that, I check to see what they tend to go for. Most of my characters have a dozen unsold recipes sitting there doing nothing.
Meh, I'm not really interested in playing the market. That's not what COH was supposed to be about, at least to me.
This little bit of less enjoyable stuff lets me play totally free of endurance worries on most of my characters while providing other bonuses as well. Then again, I can't make you like the market and I respect your choice not to use it, but if you choose not to use one of the tools offered to you, you basically give up your right to complain about things not working like you want them to.
I encourage you to use the market at least to the extent to sell your drops. I can't really emphasize this enough, but just selling your drops will get you ridiculous piles of influence. Maybe not right now, maybe not tomorrow, but in a few months' time you'll have a lot of influence. If this doesn't go over your pain threshold, I also encourage you to look at uncommon set IOs. They aren't expensive if you are patient with bids. Even frankenslotting them gets great results and many uncommon set IOs are less expensive than common IOs. -
Quote:Well, it very much seems like you are jealous judging by your previous posts in the thread.Originally Posted by Pinny
People still believe I'm jealous over people being able to solo AVs? Hilarious. Seems some people just can't let things go, can they?
Back to topic then:
I did it with EBs on for the first time on my Kat/Inv because I didn't want to run into any nasty mission-reset requiring surprises (psy damage AVs, for instance). Following runs on other characters also did with EBs on for the sake of speed. Guess I'll do it with AVs on at some point later, then. -
The mission is set to whichever number is higher, the real number of teammates or the artificial number of teammates.
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I wouldn't use a verb as strong as hate, perhaps dislike would suit it better... Some of these are only because other characters do their job better.
In no particular order:
MA/Regen Scrapper. I don't know. I like the MA animations and the different playstyle of /Regen (compared to other Scrapper secondaries), but the performance just wasn't enough.
Dark/Rad Defender, I rarely pull this one out because nowadays I prefer playing my fully IO'd Cold/Sonic.
Ice/Ice Blaster. Transfered to an empty server with a free transfer and rerolled as Ice/Mental. I just never really liked the Ice/Ice.
Nin/Nin Stalker. Transfered to an empty server at lvl 41 after discovering how painful leveling was quite a few issues ago. Funny thing is, I find the performance of Ninja Blade bad while I love my main who is a Katana/Invuln.
Ninjas/Dark MM. My first level 50 villain. I guess I don't like playing him because I leveled him up in a rush and never even teamed much. I think about the only thing I did was paper missions.
Sonic/Psy Defender. I just can't bring myself to playing this character. The end issues are horrible if I actually want to use both my Sonics and my attacks. I hate it too much to spend any time trying to figure out and getting an IO build, but then again that's why I hate him: because he isn't good on SOs / common IOs only.
EDIT: My PB! I haven't played him in ages. So long, in fact, that I had totally forgotten about him. He just feels weak compared to any of my other characters. -
Here's what I use on my Elec/SD/Mu Scrapper. Build is for Leandro's I19 Mids.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1,601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Electrical Melee
Secondary Power Set: Shield Defense
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Medicine
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Charged Brawl -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(7), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(11), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), T'Death-Dam%(15)
Level 1: Deflection -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(15), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(17)
Level 2: Jacobs Ladder -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Rchg(17), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(19), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), Erad-%Dam(50)
Level 4: Battle Agility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(23), HO:Enzym(23)
Level 6: True Grit -- Numna-Heal/EndRdx(A), Numna-EndRdx/Rchg(25), Numna-Heal/Rchg(25), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(27), Numna-Heal(27), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(29)
Level 8: Thunder Strike -- Armgdn-Dmg(A), Armgdn-Dam%(9), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(31), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(31)
Level 10: Active Defense -- HO:Membr(A), HO:Membr(33)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(33), RechRdx-I(33)
Level 16: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 18: Build Up -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(21), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(34), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(34), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(34), GSFC-Build%(36)
Level 20: Phalanx Fighting -- Ksmt-ToHit+(A)
Level 22: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(36), Aegis-EndRdx/Rchg(37), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Aegis-ResDam(37)
Level 26: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(36), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(39)
Level 28: Aid Other -- Empty(A)
Level 30: Aid Self -- IntRdx-I(A), HO:Golgi(31), Numna-Heal(39), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(40)
Level 32: Lightning Rod -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(40), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(42), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Oblit-%Dam(43)
Level 35: Shield Charge -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(39), Oblit-%Dam(40), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(43), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 38: Grant Cover -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 41: Mu Bolts -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(46), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(46), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 44: Ball Lightning -- Ragnrk-Dmg(A), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Ragnrk-Knock%(45), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(48), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(50)
Level 47: One with the Shield -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 49: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 1: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 1: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Heal(9), RgnTis-Regen+(11)
Level 1: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(3), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(3), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg(5), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(5), P'Shift-End%(7)
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I'm starting to lean more and more towards the build with Maneuvers. The last few TFs I did didn't have me wishing I had picked Aid Self and I'm generally ok with using insps.
Here's the build for I19 Mids:
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They were about 30mil when I checked earlier today. Much cheaper than the LotG +Rechs in your build, for instance.
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They ignore any amount of stealth so your best bet is to just run/fly/jump by them as fast as possible.
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Lysosome HOs are much cheaper than quite a few IOs in your build, though.
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Talk to Mender Ramiel, he explains everything you need to know.
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My favourite:
4x Kinetic Combat (all but proc)
1 Lysosome HO
1 LotG +rech -
26 levels of Invuln Tank (all of Invuln except Unstoppable)
4 levels of Regen Scrapper (Fast Healing, Reconstruction, Quick Recovery)
18 levels of Fire Blaster (do I need to explain?)
Then uhh, probably two levels of EA Stalker (Hide and Kinetic Shield)
Great Resistance and Defense, good Regen, two heals, good recovery and nice damage.
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It can be done, but it's much easier to give advice if you download Mid's and post a sample build.
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I hate leveling up to be able to access content. Did I mention I also hate having to collect influence to access content from stores?
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Here's the build with Maneuvers:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1,601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Katana
Secondary Power Set: Invulnerability
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Gambler's Cut -- Achilles-ResDeb%(A), Hectmb-Dmg(36), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(46), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Hectmb-Dam%(48)
Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 2: Temp Invulnerability -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(45), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45), RctvArm-ResDam(46)
Level 4: Dull Pain -- Panac-Heal/EndRedux(A), Panac-EndRdx/Rchg(43), Panac-Heal/Rchg(43), Panac-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(43), Panac-Heal(45)
Level 6: Flashing Steel -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), HO:Nucle(42)
Level 8: Divine Avalanche -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(9), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(9), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), HO:Lyso(39), LkGmblr-Rchg+(50)
Level 10: Build Up -- Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(A), Rec'dRet-Pcptn(11), RechRdx-I(11), RechRdx-I(39)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(13), Ksmt-ToHit+(13)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(15), RechRdx-I(15)
Level 16: Unyielding -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(17), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(17), RctvArm-ResDam(37)
Level 18: The Lotus Drops -- Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Erad-%Dam(19), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx(21), C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg(21), C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg(37)
Level 20: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 22: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(23), RctvArm-ResDam(23), RctvArm-EndRdx(37)
Level 24: Weave -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(25), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(25), RedFtn-Def(50), RedFtn-EndRdx(50)
Level 26: Soaring Dragon -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(27), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(27), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), HO:Nucle(34), LdyGrey-%Dam(36)
Level 28: Invincibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(29), HO:Cyto(29)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(31), HO:Cyto(31)
Level 32: Golden Dragonfly -- Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(A), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(33), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Armgdn-Dam%(34), FotG-ResDeb%(34)
Level 35: Tough Hide -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(36), DefBuff-I(48)
Level 38: Resist Energies -- GA-3defTpProc(A)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 44: Physical Perfection -- P'Shift-End%(A)
Level 47: Resist Elements -- Aegis-Psi/Status(A)
Level 49: Super Jump -- Winter-ResSlow(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 1: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 1: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(5), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(7), Mrcl-Rcvry+(7), Mrcl-Heal(40), RgnTis-Regen+(40)
Level 1: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(3), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(3), P'Shift-End%(5)
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