Cyber_naut

You shouldn't determine how rage works based on SD or whatever set you choose to go along with SS. Regardless of primary (for tanks) or (secondary) for brutes, the penalities for rage are excessive, imo. Again, with rage, SS does damage on par with competing sets, so really the only advantage it gives you is the to hit debuff, which again, is very nice, but not so nice considering you suffer an end crash every two minutes, along with 10 seconds of damage impotence AND a 20% def penalty. That's excessive for a to hit bonus that is really just overkill most of the time, which is why I feel the devs could drop the def penalty without any other alterations. The end crash and 10 seconds of impotence every two minutes is more than enough of a penalty for a power that merely allows the set to do dmg on par with it's competitors along with a to hit bonus, in a game where you hit 90 plus percent of the time anyway (pve wise).

LOL, nailed it, Sunspot was one of the toons I was thinking about specifically.

But I think some are also acting like scrappers have no defensive secondary, like they're blasters or something, lol. Last time I checked, scrappers have defensive sets like invulnerability. So a defensively vulnerable toon like sunspot is actually on the extreme end for vulnerable SS 'scrappers'. Scrappers are not as survivable as tankers, but they can be pretty damn sturdy.

I'd say there are a number of comic book heroes with SS that could fit in with either at, but most of them would fall into the scrapper at because comic books lend themselves more to making heroes offensively aggressive rather than primarily damage absorbers who create 'aggro'.

Now that is just my opinion. But it's a fact some heroes in comic books have super strength and could only fit into the scrapper at. And it's a fact that ss is an iconic melee super power. And it's a fact that the scrapper is supposed to be coh's iconic hero melee at... 'nuff said.

This is exactly what I meant with my last post - leveling up, sets like regen and FA are superior, imo. Though I'd like to see fire armor get power sink to replace it's assy end recovery power - that might get it a bit more play.

But you're ignoring the fact that SD is a defense set and FA relies on res and a self heal. I'll take defense over res/heal all day long.

Now having said that, I'm always aiming for end game. Leveling up, defensive toons can be pretty painful, it takes a while to get your defensive numbers up to strong levels. So leveling up, sets with heals can be a lot better and easier to play, which balances the end game disparity, imo.

Correct, that's why you take SD and shield charge - you kill everything before it can attack you. Nothing mitigates an opponents damage better than killing said opponent, lol.

Agreed, it would be silly to make all sets have strong aoe abilities, there should be some sets that are poor in aoe, but that would be balanced in giving that set powerful single target abilities.

That WAS energy melee. Terrible aoe but the best burst and dps single target set. But some players had a hard time wrapping their minds around the idea of a set that was dominant at one thing and horrible at another. So when et showed its strength, especially in pvp situations, people cried 'overpowered', while ignoring it's blatant weaknesses.

They weren't with the em guy from 1-50 using a set that is nearly useless on teams and badly overshadowed by pretty much every other set because they all have superior aoe.

One of the devs even straight out admitted it was hearing these cries that contributed to nerfing em (et specifically) - stating there were countless posters laughing at people who took anything other than em - but they somehow missed the fact they were all in regards to pvp builds. Only a fool would have suggested em as a top choice for team play. In pve, especially on teams, aoe rules the day.

Now that's not to say em is unplayable, but it's clearly a bottom feeder now. It's dead last in aoe ability, has poor aoe mitigation, slow animations (enjoy all the wasted attacks as teamates kill your targets while sloth.. er... energy transfer animates), a top power that kills your regen, in exchange for single target abilities that are merely on par with other sets that dominate you in aoe, in fact some are superior in both aoe and single target.

If I had my way, em would be reverted to what it was - the best single target set balanced by the fact it's the worst aoe set. It's dominance in pvp would be remedied somewhat by the recent pvp changes in that energy damage is not as lightly resisted as it once was. It would still be a top choice for pvp, but again, that's balanced by the fact its a bottom choice for pve due to weak aoe abilities.

My second choice for a remedy would be to improve the sets aoe ability. They could start by making either em or et a cone or small pbaoe.

But leaving the set as is, imo, is a shame. It was a really fun set that was unfairly nerfed to death due to ignorance and miscommunication.

If the devs managed to port fire melee over, they can port SS over with some tweaks.

I apologize for making you sigh, lol.

To me, it seemed like you were saying people wanted ss ONLY for the numbers, and that's not true. It's the whole package, the numbers, how it plays, how it looks. Thats why repackaging MA doesn't work.

And you are correct, scrapper SS at lvl 50 would outdamage MA in both single target and aoe, just as FM and claws would outdamage SS. There are plenty of sets that are imbalanced like this in the scrapper primaries already, and there are similar imbalances in the tanker and brute power set choices.

So to clarify your point, you don't want to let scrappers, the hero side melee specialist, have access to the iconic melee super power, SS? Clearly, SS is a superior powerset to MA, and it's OK for tanks (who melee as a secondary) to have SS, but not for scrappers - they should get a weaker version, despite the fact they are primarily a melee attack toon?
I'm seeing your 'points', I just don't agree with them.

A melee power, like super strength, fits with a toon that is specifically stated to be a melee at.

Pistols, when used as they are designed (lol), are ranged weapons, and do not fit with a melee at. However, I'll give you this, the devs, were consistently inconsistent here, by giving claws (still not sure how claws has ranged attacks...) and spines ranged attacks, but the sets are still primarily melee. If the devs designed a pistol set where only 2 or 3 of the attacks were short ranged attacks, and the rest were melee pistol butt attacks, you'd have an argument for it fitting with scrappers.

I'm certainly not arguing that scrappers should have access to all powersets. Scrappers should not be able to get fire blast or empathy, lol. I'm arguing they should have access to THE iconic melee super power - super strength, because scrappers are supposed to be the best hero melee at.

Trade ya for SS.

Nailed it. And I'm sure brute claws is wonderful, but I don't see only clawed brutes running around, and it didn't create some sort of i-blackhole to devour the game, lol. Not to mention, wouldn't brute claws outdamage scrapper ss in single target and aoe with shockwave and spin, while having at least similar mitigation with shockwave?

The most important part was porting claws to brutes made a lot of players happy, like yourself, and the people who don't like it, don't have to play it. And while it's very powerful 'numbers-wise', it certainly doesn't break the game...

When I first made this game (whoops al gore moment - replace made with bought... lol), the first toon i wanted to make was a ss/reg scrapper and was extremely disappointed when I found out that was impossible. I've been trying various combos since, and the closest I've gotten is with a ss/wp brute. It's just a shame that the hero at that is supposed to be the melee specialist can't use comic books' most iconic melee power. And yes, numbers and how it plays factor in, because getting some gimped version while the other 2 melee at's get the corvette version would be a slap in the face, and quite frankly, wouldn't make any sense.

True. So martial arts would be superior in single target while SS would be superior in aoe, right? But honestly, MA is a bad set to compare with, because lets face it, MA is not a very popular set. I don't think I've seen a single tanker or brute asking for it, have you?

Compare ss to fire melee, a set that all 3 melee at's have, where fire melee will 'vastly' (according to your scaling from the last example) outperform ss in both single target and aoe while doing it in a vastly less resisted damage type, while obviously ss will have the advantage of kd and damage mitigation. To the poster who wants to wipe out large groups in 2 shots, give fm/sd a try, and you get fsc at lvl 18 rather than 32.

But again it comes down to one power really, footstomp. But what is always conveniently left out is the fact footstomp is the set's only aoe power and it's the last power of the set. It should be damn good and it should be set defining, because quite frankly, ss is pretty damn lame compared to other sets before you get it.

And he couldn't do the same thing with SS's footstomp because why?

I would argue that Hulk is indeed a brute because the character is clearly offensive and becomes more powerul the more enraged he gets, which is covered with fury (granted it doesnt fit perfectly, but it fits better than the tank at that is primarily about only absorbing damage, at least moreso than dishing it out. But as far as you 'defensively stronger' argument, from what I've seen of the hulk, increased rage/fury mostly made him stronger and more destructive, once he became the 'hulk' he was pretty much already indestructable - but again, I think its safe to say hulk was far more offensive than what a tanker would be.). Blob is an excellent example of a tanker in my opinion, as he is primarily a character that absorbs punishment moreso than dealing it out.

As I've said, 'numbers' are part of the game (to claim it's the only reason for everyone is nonsense), but more importantly, it's how the set plays. I've played MA to 50, and I didn't enjoy the set. Maybe I'd like it more with the new animations, but overall it just felt clunky and kinda thrown together to me. Now maybe you'll jump in with, 'well you just want ss because of the numbers'. If that were the case, according to bills work-up, I'd still be better of with MA, since MA does better dps with it's best set-up. If people only wanted sets due to 'numbers' I wonder why tanks aren't pining for MA, lol. Hell, scrpper em would be higher by the 'numbers', but I'll pass on that crippled, sloth-like set too.

And again, in discussing the idea that SS would be overpowered on scrappers, I strongly disagree. Looking again at bills work, we see that scrap ss would indeed outdamage brute ss. And yes, that is due different at modifiers. But guess what - this is the one set that would seem to be working properly, because scrappers SHOULD be outdamaging brutes, since brutes have at modifiers that give them inherent survivability advantages from lvl 1-50 regardless of circumstances, yet most powersets allow brutes to obtain damage and survivability advantage in many situations.

Regardless of the brute scrapper debate (I don't feel the balance between the two at's is so ridiculously skewed as to require any changes, but to claim there is parity is nonsense and clearly brutes have clear advantages in more situations than scrappers do), despite ss being supposedly 'overpowered' on scrappers, it did not finish first in the dps showdown (9 set ups finished higher...). This reminds me of the debate that raged when they lowered the animation times on katana - people swore up and down that it would make katana ridiculously overpowered. I think if SS gets ported, as it should, we will see similar results.

Agreed. Maybe this is just a way to address complaints from some who are on a server they feel is slower than when they started there - this gives them a chance to move to a more populated server. I played on freedom once and it was a lag-fest so I never went back.

Thanks, thats the info I was looking for...

Though I've seen threads with mods denying this, so I hope they're being straight up about this 'gift'...

Wow did they say how many servers were getting axed? How strong is champion vs other servers...?

This is true, and the devs seem to be aware of it in that they tried to replace it with a minus recovery, which was even more ridiculous, because that coupled with the end crash meant toggle dropping death-fests, so they wisely cancelled the change.

There have been damage work ups done by forum members, and they all seem to show that SS WITH rage puts SS's damage output in the same neighborhood as other competing sets. Without rage, SS is a bottom feeder damage-wise. So basically, you need to take rage if you want to compete damage-wise with other sets. That means you have to waste a power, slot it, keep using it, and then endure a pretty hefty defense debuff and endurance crash every couple of minutes, along with 10 seconds of impotence, just to do damage on par with other sets. Really, the only advantage the power gives is the to hit buff, which is great, but I don't think it justifies that many negatives. I think the defense debuff could be dropped from the power without any problems whatsoever. The end crash and 10 seconds of impotence every two minutes is a fair trade for the to hit buff and being able to do dmg on par with other powersets. I don't know how anyone who actually plays ss for 50 levels can claim that crash is unnoticeable - running out of end and not being able to damage enemies every two minutes drives me nuts sometimes.

Then you have the option of not making a hero look like thor or hercules. But a good game give players the option of making a toon like thor or hercules if that's the type of character they want to make. If you don't want to make a SS scrapper, fine, don't do it, but why try to block those of us who do want to make one from doing so? So far the only reason I've seen given is because the ultimate melee super power somehow doesn't fit with the at who specializes in melee combat...

These are not reasons not to give ss to scrappers, these are ways to avoid giving ss to scrappers.

Ah, 'it's about numbers'. Is this the real reason you don't want scrappers to have SS? If that's the case, we do have a problem. Because if SS is too good for scrappers, then why is it not too good for brutes and tanks? And if numbers aren't, or shouldn't be important, why didn't they just add dark melee animations to ice melee when they ported that over to tankers?

Of course numbers matter, that's why nobody plays energy melee anymore and nobody cares if it's ported over to scrappers. Because by changing just a few of the set's 'numbers', the devs made the set a sluggish, boring mess. But if you're implying SS's numbers are the only reason people want it ported, it doesn't seem to mesh with the stats I've seen. There are existing scrapper primaries that outdamage ss in both single target and aoe damage.