Cyber_naut

No way, spin is super hard to use, bad guys have to be standing near you and you have to click a button.

But yeah, I remember when sd first came out and saw you couldn't pair it with claws and was left saddened...

I like your idea to put SS on test just to see what it does (I think it was you who suggested it), but they'd probably put it in with the wrong numbers and not notice for a year or two.

Hallelujah, lol. Do people who post here even play these sets? I completely agree with you bill, and judging by the many posts who claim SS would be 'overpowered', I can only guess that they've never played other sets like claws, which is an absolute beast in both single target and aoe damage.

It's also amazing to me that so many simply disregard the rage crash as if it was nothing. Ten seconds of impotence every two minutes, gets really annoying on a damage dealing AT, and the 25% end crash every two minutes, that can't be mitigated by slotting and hits all at once, is a major pain in the ***.

I have better end use vs. end rec than you, and I run into end problems in VERY long fights, like vs. a tough av. I can fight indefinitely, however, by using SOW. You might be able to do the same with conserve power, but you'd have to ask one of the resident math wizards to be sure.

The chain you list is optimal if you want to be capped for melee and do top notch damage, yes. The only better chain is one that has insane recharge and doesn't use DA, which is usually only 'optimal' on an SR.

Nice build, I have a similar build on my kat/wp.

Have you played this build, and if so, have you had end problems in a long drawn out fight?

Don't worry about smashing defense, there's not much ranged smashing to deal with in this game. Most of it will be covered by melee or mixed with something else you have covered. The rest is usually covered with your massive regen and nice resists.

My acc levels are similar to yours, almost identical actually, and I don't have any problems fighting plus fours. In fact, a kat/wp is great for doing the double rwz challenges. Having said that, more acc never hurts, and if you get hit with acc debuffs, it can sting a bit.

Wow that's insane, lol. Which toon soloed them?

Recluse, oh man with that end drain thing he's got I can't imagine beating him without some crazy string of unbelievable luck.

If you want to solo ghost widow wern, you gotta soup up a wp toon. My wp is the only av soloer I've been able to beat her with. Thanks to her death hold, I'd say she's the toughest av I've beaten (with a kat/wp).

I soloed one of those stone monsters on monster island with my rad/sonic defender today (and it felt so very wrong, lol), and it makes me hopeful that with the new incarnates thing, that scrappers will have some kind of access to a regen killing ability.

This.

And in terms of the OP's feelings on a 'money sink', keep in mind that a lot of the scrappers you feel you are being outperformed by probably sank a lot of cash into their combo too. Many of the people you see posting in here are running around with multi-billion infl builds. Bottom line is, if you want top end performance, you have to sink some money into what you're doing. If you're not willing to do that, then understand you will get outperformed by those who do, and even moreso when you note the fact that you yourself have said your scrapper experience is limited.

In terms of this combo, focus on it's strengths. Add some melee/lethal def to stack with parry so you're softcapped with one parry, or close. That will add bigtime survivability. Get as much recharge in as possible so healing flames is up as much as it can be. Then I'd focus on building up some ranged or energy defense. I like the idea of going into the fire epic for some added aoe with fireball, and it fits your build/concept.

Great bio btw, lol.

I was clearly saying SS for scrappers came in tenth on the chart I was pointing at, I'm sorry if you're still struggling to understand that. If I photoshoped the chart with an arrow pointing at scrapper SS with the number 10 next to it, would that help?



It falls into the argument bill presented in that if the set is ok for brutes it should be ok for scrappers. The inherent at bonuses/advantages scrappers have are supposed to make offensive sets better for scrappers, since brutes, and to a larger extent, tanks, get defensive and survivability advantages.



Claws only does 'respectable' ST damage? Bills chart has brute and scrapper claws doing better single target damage than a straight ss port to scrappers, yet you claim SS does moderate to excellent ST performance. And claws aoe ability is very comparable to SS's aoe ability, it simply does it with two attacks, spin and shockwave, offering similar damage and wide ranging knockdown/back mitigation, and on top of that its got a hard hitting cone in eviscerate, while getting most of it's aoe ability long before SS gets FS. And saying claws 'only' has shockwave, and 'that's it', makes me wonder if you've ever even played claws, outside of looking at it on your calculator, lol. So I'd say the comparison between the two is pretty strong, yet nobody ever calls claws 'overpowered'.

Having said that, just to be clear, you saying 'honestly, yes' means you want to nerf claws too? How about stone melee? Are we going to balance all of the fun sets down to ice melee, is that the plan?

My information is right, but it's not my job to make you comprehend it, lol.

True, I didn't mean to imply that I was completely dismissing the entire opposing argument. What I meant was, in terms of that chart (assuming the info was correct), and in terms of just single target damage (something I noted several times, since there is no info on overall aoe ability, and overall aoe ability is something much harder to calculate and display using statistics), I find it hard to argue that a direct port of scrapper SS is overpowered when brute MARTIAL ARTS would outdamage it.

Agreed.


And I agree with bill's assertion that if the powers that be decide SS can't be ported to scrappers without massive revision, and that it's 'broken' with scrappers, then I don't see how one could claim it's not broken for other at's as well. Then again, the powers that be think its ok for one at to have the ability to do better damage and have superior surivability over another similar at.

Having said that, wasn't fire melee tweaked a bit when it was ported? I know claws got changed when it was ported to brutes. So if it gets a few tweaks to make it work better with a different at, that's not necessarily a big deal.

Agreed. The rage crash is a bigger pain in the *** in terms of game play then just looking at the numbers. And it's 'massive' aoe output is overstated, especially when you look at other sets that have similar capabilities (or better) that are simply spread out over several powers, the majority of which are available to the player much earlier than FS is available.

Is FS a great power? Absolutely, but again, it's the only real aoe SS has, it comes late in the game, and competing sets have competitive or better aoe abilities, and they get them earlier.

I was saying 'SS for scrappers' comes in tenth place on the chart I was discussing, obviously. I'm surprised I have to explain that to someone as brilliant as you think yourself to be, lol.

The saddest thing is, you seem to claim that SS significantly outperforms the average in absolutely every single category, when we're looking at things that show this is simply not true. Brute SS is clearly below average in single target output looking at the evidence at hand.

And if we use your definition of overpowered, again I ask, what is your opinion of claws, since it is a set that has above average performance in every category you mentioned? I'm thinking there are several sets that are above average in each category for the at's said powersets are available for, that doesn't guarantee said powerset is overpowered or imbalanced. A math wizard like yourself should understand the fact two things can be balanced in 3 categories, even if one is above the baseline in all 3 categories and one is below in 2 and above in one.

Which is why I posted about EM and PvP changes. Whether castle agrees with you or not is irrelevant, he's not some infallible gaming god, lol. Hell, based on the pvp and em changes, he probably does agree with you.

This is just your opinion. But at least you're being consistent in that it's filled with falacies and an overblown sense of worth.

Oh no, the internet bully is calling me a dummy! Clearly, the sign of a truly intelligent debater, lol. But I guess when your argument falls apart, all you have left is namecalling and chest thumping.

Oh, the irony. You said: 'You are not special, no matter how many times your mother told you.' Perhaps you should take your own advice junior, because you clearly have a lot of growing up to do.

I'm certainly not taking bills charts as gospel, but they do give an idea how the sets compare to eachother, and I've noted that it is in regard to single target damage.

Well, clearly I don't agree that SS does 'incredibly well' in terms of single target damage. I do agree that it is a top aoe damage set, but obviously only after lvl 32/35 and with the sets final power, footstomp. Of course, that is why footsomp is so good, because it's the only credible aoe power the set has, and it incorporates all of the sets aoe damage an mitigation.

I also agree that aoe damage is more valuable in the pve game than single target capabilities, by far. But I don't agree with the argument that SS is vastly outperforming competing sets in terms of aoe capabilities, especially when it only has on credible aoe power that comes late in the game. Some players see how powerful FS is and forget that other sets can do similar aoe dmg/mitigation, but it's spread out through several powers, and in almost all cases, available much, much earlier and throughout the sets leveling.

Rage is 'more powerful'... than what? Build up in other sets? Yeah, it has to be because without rage SS would be in the basement in damage output.

And study vs analysis, lol? Semantics anyone? C'mon professor, were talking about super strength powers on a gaming board...

It amounts to a bit more choice in terms of damage enhancement, sure, thanks to the to-hit buff.

I was responding to this:

"Let me get into this even further. Not only are you getting to save a slot on accuracy but you are also getting to "save" on damage slotting. Because Rage provides that massive amount of damage and it's pretty much perma with baseline slotting, you're getting 75% +dam (factoring in the downtime) in every power as well. That's 2.5 damage enhancements."

In terms of the '75% plus damage in every power", that's needed for SS to be competitive with other sets, so to imply that this is an advantage is deceptive at best. Because without that 75% damage buff, SS is getting wrecked by the competition damage-wise.

Well that would be your opinion. In my opinion, the fact it buffs outside powers is another benefit of rage to augment the ten seconds of impotence and endurance crash every 2 minutes. And even with this benefit, according to bills study (which is synonymous with analysis...), SS manages not to end up on top even when utilizing outside powers.*

*Note: in terms of single target damage ONLY! Umbral ANALYSIS coming soon!

Well I'm clearly not the mathematician you are, nor have I ever claimed to be. You win the golden calculator uncontested. But again, I don't think the numbers are accurately displaying the end problems that SS creates due to the rage crash. Of course I could use your argument and point out that the end usage is for a single target attack chain and not considering the use of aoe's at all, in which case the end usage of each set might change dramatically, but I understand you're just talking about bills study and that is in regard to single target abilities.

It's easy to build any set for low endurace consumption. But if you're playing SS to its strengths and using ko blow, FS and rage, it's an end heavy set, with a unique problem of a substantial end crash every two minutes.

Wait, if the argument is that SS is overpowered, shouldn't it be providing the best performance by a large margin, or at all even? Is a set like brute claws overpowered? How many sets are on the umbral nerfing block? Speak slowly so I can understand someone as brilliant as yourself... lol.

Do you play the game at all or just do the math, lol? I've played pretty much every melee set to fifty, and SS creates more end problems than most sets. I never claimed they were insurmountable.

Semantics, but study is synonymous with analysis, so any difference is pretty much ridiculously irrelevant in this discussion.

Again, I'm not taking any of the charts as unquestionable, just as something to look at. Of course, anything you come up with can be called into question as well. Just looking at the game purely through mathematics doesn't always seem to work, because variables inevitably end up getting missed. I'm guessing castle has a pretty good grasp of numbers, yet look how em and his pvp revamp turned out.

LOL, so now you like starsmans charts? And if you do, having a set do above avg dmg for both st and aoe while having some competing sets doing better, doesn't really support an 'overpowered' argument. Looking at his tanker scores, he's got SS in the middle for st and second best at aoe to fire by a wide margin, with several sets in the same neighborhood. Good? Yes. Overpowered? No.

The only thing that I'm seeing that is overpowered in this thread is your sense of infallibility and expertise, lol. If numerical investigations were as effective as you seem to claim, we'd have all perfectly balanced powersets and discussions like this wouldn't even be taking place. Of course, that's not the case, because trying to balance vastly different powersets facing countless and varied in-game situations is virtually impossible using just numerical dissolutions.

You can come up with excuses for why other sets finished ahead of SS, but you can't deny the fact that other sets did finish above SS, while several other sets were in the same neighborhood damage-wise. But I can see why you want to look for excuses because that fact makes it hard to argue that SS is overpowered. Even scrapper SS, ported as-is, which benefits from the at advantages, was beat out by other sets, again, making it pretty hard to argue that it's overpowered or game-breaking. Very good to great? Absolutely.

And this would be synonymous with 'you're a big dummy head!'. Stay classy!

But to respond, I've used the same evidence that you've used to support your arguments, everything else, from both of us, has been anecdotal. And I've read what you've posted and simply disagree with it, and explained why. It is ironic that you confuse an opposing argument as a lack of critical thinking though.

Heres the full list from the study in question:

Brute Fiery 172.6 3.1
Brute Energy 157.5 3.3
Scrap Energy 151 3.3
Scrap Claws 149.6 2.9
Brute Claws 149.5 2.9
Scrap Fiery 149.3 3.1
Brute Warmace 148 3.7
Brute Dark 143.7 3.1
Brute Martial Arts 143.7 3.6
Scrap Strength 142.1 2.9
Scrap Dark 141.6 3.1
Scrap Martial Arts 141.5 3.6
Scrap Warmace 141 3.7
Brute Stone 137.5 3.5
Scrap Dual Blades 136.3 3.5
Brute Dual Blades 134.8 3.5
Scrap Stone 131.8 3.5
Brute Katana 131.2 3.2
Brute Battleaxe 129.3 3.2
Scrap Katana 128.6 3.2
Brute Strength 127.3 2.9
Brute Broadsword 124.9 3.1
Scrap Battleaxe 123.3 3.2
Scrap Broadsword 121.7 3.1
Brute Electric 106.6 2.9
Scrap Electric 103.6 2.9
Brute Spines 93.4 1.6
Scrap Spines 80.1 1.6

First of all, this study looks at SS ported to scrappers completely unaltered, yet it comes in TENTH for scrappers. If the this info is correct, there can be no argument that SS directly ported to scrappers is overpowered in terms of single target damage, unless you also believe the nine powerset/at combos ahead of it are also 'overpowered'.

My mediocre to poor comments stems from the only existing powerset/at combo, the brute ss, which places 21/28. This is actually one of the few powersets that allows scrappers to retain their damage edge. But if you're talking about SS on the whole, if you average their performance in this study, you end up with mediocre, hence my description of mediocre (SS overall) to poor (brute SS).

In terms of endurance usage, SS isn't blowing anything away even when you look at nothing but the statistics. But imo, these statistics do not take into account how the rage crash causes serious endurance issues, which puts SS at a disadvantage endurance wise vs pretty much every competing set.

And when you mention the other study, SS does better not because of slotting, but because it's able to use gloom, which is a great single target attack. Pretty much all the brute primaries improve because of that in said study.



You keep talking about improved slotting, but I haven't seen your study. I've only seen bills and starsmans.

In bills study, just for the SS set, brute ss finishes 21 of 28. Only brute BS, elec and spines would finish behind it. And at 127dps, it's not even close to the top contenders. That's poor.

In bills other study where SS can grab gloom and more recharge, it places 4th among brute primaries, which is nice, but only 5 brute primaries finished behind it, with two of them in the same neighborhood in terms of dps (112, 207, 203). Regardless, 4 of 9 is pretty middle of the road... or, mediocre.

You can disagree with my descriptions if you want, but I don't see the argument for 'overpowered' in any of those numbers. And yes, I understand in terms of this specific argument using these studies, we are talking strictly about sustained single target damage only.