Cyber_naut
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Posts
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Quote:Originally Posted by BrandX
It must have something going for it, or else, by the way your message looks, everyone would be claws.
You have broken the logic barrier. I'm comparing claws to KM, not to every other set in the game. There are many other scrapper primaries that are in the same range as claws in terms of overall performance, KM is not one of them, imo.
Regardless, KM will get lots of play early on due to the fact its a new powerset and it looks nice. Some will play it later on for the same reasons. But that does not speak to the sets performance, though a sharp drop-off in usage after release certainly would. -
Quote:In terms of endurance, I've NEVER heard anyone complain about claws. I've read many posts of testers complaining about KM's endurance useage.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, with the average value of Power Siphon I measured, KM actually roughly ties Claws on endurance efficiency.
The only reason I'm hedging on single target is that I haven't done all the computations across enough recharge domains to be sure. If I had to bet money though, I would bet that at least Scrapper KM beats Scrapper Claws in ST with power siphon's average performance and without counting insta-recharge, which would help KM even more (by a little).
Claws isn't that much faster cast time wise, although it does have recharge discounts. At levels of recharge higher than SO slotted recharge, that becomes less of a problem for KM.
In terms of single target damage, if you agree that claws 'blows away' KM in aoe ability, shouldn't KM be clearly superior in single target ability?
Good thing i didn't say 'always better', I said 'generally better' as in, in most situations in this game aoe output is more valuable than single target. It's why a set like EM is generally (NOT ALWAYS) disliked by most players, and part of why KM is getting generally bad reviews by testers.Quote:And once you say "AoE is always better except for fringe gamers" you've just placed yourself outside the realm I'm usually willing to discuss when it comes to set design. I won't usually argue the point, but I will generally reject it out of hand. -
Quote:Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Anyone who says Claws has better mitigation than KM is either lying or monumentally ignorant.
Anyone that would claim single target -dam is better than the mitigation claws has is obviously ignorant of shockwave. Granted there are some cases were stacking single target -dmg is better than aoe knockback, but in most cases, aoe mitigation trumps single target mitigation. And despite some posters claims, it doesn't require a masters degree to master shockwave and use it effectively. -
Quote:Thats a good solution, I've suggested that in the past for tankers. Seeing tankers get pushed around just seems wrong on every level.Originally Posted by Hejtmane
I been asking for this for like um 3 years know my suggestion was alright their kb mitigation is less at least give it a mag 4kb and 50% resistance that means you still need at least 1 IO to get close to the rest of the scrappers and at the same time do not force us into an IO or a stupid power pool to cover a hole in a melee set that has to stand in the middle of things
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Quote:Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
No, I'm not. DA's mitigation levels are not superior enough over the other sets to warrant the lack of KB protection. DA, thanks to all the tools it does have, appears to be right in line with the other sets. Since the other sets get KB protection, why shouldn't DA?
FA's mitigation levels are pathetic. I played it at level 50. IOed to the nines. It's crap. This is supposedly balanced out by its heightened damage output which is being buffed to a point in I-18 that the case can probably be made that it would be on par with the other sets IF it also had the KB hole closed.
Well I can see where a soloist would think like that, but on teams DA and FA can be pretty nice, DA especially. DA's heal alone is ridiculously powerful, and how many sets pretty much negate all the minions you're facing with OG? And the damage auras add quite a bit of aoe damage to your offense, something people often overlook.
I wouldn't care if the kb holes were closed, or if they're not, but my biggest reason for replying to your post was when you said that DA's mitigation ability was 'low enough' to warrant removing the hole, which seemed to imply that you felt DA's mitigation ability was mediocre to poor, which I completely disagree with. -
Quote:Against cims, if you dont have high ddr, then yeah, your soft cap defense is like paper armor, lol.Originally Posted by Valheru_fury
Was it neccessary to soft cap my scrapper?? Not really but I did want to see how much more durable it made my toon. I'm considering (depending on how my current build goes) swapping out maneuvers and putting in hasten so I'm perma DP and comparing survivability. When your surrounded by 6 cimeroran bosses 50% DDR does little to prevent defense cascade failure
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Quote:Screw that, I think the rest of us deserve buffs!Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Iggy Kamakaze needs to be nerfed.
Not Iggy's characters.......Iggy himself! -
Quote:Good question, but I'm not sure there's an easy answer. A lot of AAO's dmg boost is going towards single targets (depending on primary) while the damage auras are hitting everything in range all of the time. I think the damage auras are a lot more beneficial than many players give them credit for being.Originally Posted by Dr_Unholy
Just out of curiosity how much more DPS does AAO add to an attack chain for (Dark, MA, BS? One of the sets both have access to, doesn't matter which) in comparison to Death Shroud/Lightning Field?
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Quote:So KM 'might' do better single target dmg with 'sufficiently high recharge' and 'good use of power siphon'? But a set like claws is faster, better on end, has better mitigation (single target -dam isn't as valuable as any aoe mitigation) and 'blows KM away on AOE' (which is generally more valuable in an mmo, outside of fringe gamers who solo av's all day...). Hard to believe so many people criticized this gem, lol.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Given sufficiently high recharge and good use of Power Siphon, I think so. But Claws DPA has significant advantages, especially with regard to Focus. If Focused Burst was as fast as Focus, I would be more inclined to give the unambiguous edge to KM. Claws still blows it away on AoE of course.
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Quote:What is the entire set of SR's defensive level on so's? 34.2%? Maybe they should just rename the power 'temporary SR', lol.Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
How hard is it to notice the survivability gains of 30% def?
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Quote:For DA, it's kind of becoming 'shadowy' whereas that power also grants defense which to me implies more than just translucence but also a bit of incorporeality. Thats just my take on that power.Originally Posted by Dr_Unholy
The KB holes I can live with. Somewhat.
I don't understand the -immob holes in both sets. Or rather why the -immob protection is placed in the powers it's placed in. Okay, Burn, I can KIND OF see the rational there (see, they burn the snares away, it's like the power name, clever!) but why Dark's stealth is also it's immob protection just baffles me.
"Your snares have no effect because I'm translucent!"
"...What is this, I don't even..."
Though I find a lot of the design decisions that have been around since launch follow similar paths of non-logic. -
Quote:For one, I think you underestimate FA's mitigation levels, especially with io's, by a bit, but I KNOW you are VASTLY underestimating DA's mitigation levels.Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
It has already been stated that the reason of "just because" is an idiotic reason for anything. It shows a lack of actual reasoning and should therefore be discarded as irrelevant and meaningless.
No, FA and DA's mitigation levels are low enough that having more holes in their mitigation is not in any way balanced.
I can understand your opinion that having other mitigation areas increased might be more beneficial than closing the KB hole.
The advice to not play a set because we don't like it is a waste of the time it took you to type it and has absolutely nothing to do with AT powerset balance. -
Quote:Actually, concept-wise, I don't see why SR and nin get kb protection, they don't strike me as 'sturdy'. Concept wise they would avoid kb by dodging blows, but if a blow connected, they should get knocked around.Originally Posted by StratoNexus
First, its 2 armor sets that do not have KB protection. Pretty much everyone else in the game lacks it (Khelds get it in Dwarf, I am unsure how VEATs fare here). Rather than think of it as only two sets that lack KB protection, I generally think that there are X number of sets where I can get KB protection without dipping into pools or IOs and that X is a minority of my choices.
Just because is not the reason sets lack KB. There does not need to be a game balance reason to implement a design. Sometimes the concept is more important (or else why even have blasters at all
). Balance must certainly be considered, because if the concept and design implementation fall out of a good range, then it is likely you will have issues.
However, I can see your point. It might be pretty stupid that Shields, Willpower, Regen, Electric, and Energy get KB protection (although I like the way Electric's KB protection was implemented and it seems to work concept-wise). It may even be a bit silly for Ice and Invuln, although I see a strong case with those two sets. SR, Ninjitsu, and Stone have a pretty solid reasoning for KB protection.
KB protection makes sense with stone (heavy stone armor), ice (heavy ice armor), wp (think a martial artists ability to mentally absorb ridiculous blows), while I could see invulnerability going either way, and elec has a wierd explanation/mechanic for its protection, but I can buy it.
I can see some scrappers getting knocked around, so I'm ok with the kb holes in some sets, especially now that there are many ways to remove said 'hole', but tankers should not be getting knocked around regardless of primary, so there I do have a problem with the kb holes.
But obviously, this is just a matter of opinion and taste, so obviously feelings will vary. -
Quote:How hard is it to notice the survivability gains of 30% def?Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
It could go even longer, unlike Shield Charge which even a cantaloupe propped up at a keyboard could see was overpowered, in the age of IOs I think it will be a lot harder for most players to recognize any impact Shadow Meld is making. (It makes an impact of course, just hard to notice).
Time will tell. -
Quote:We're dealing with people who are focused on end-game multi-billion inf builds. They forget the drawbacks, especially those that exist while leveling up - ie a non softcapped SD drawing most of the team aggro with AAO and not having any purple insps or greens can create problems other secondaries don't have. And when you're facing defense-buster enemies, you end up wishing you were on another secondary.Originally Posted by Dr_Unholy
You kind of just proved my point though, didn't you? /Inv, /WP, and hell, /Dark with their layers are ALSO better than SR when you sink as much money as you have to sink into /Shield to make it into an end-game god.
As for Shield, it's not as squishy as Fire because powers like Weave and CJ stack so much better with it than Tough does with /Fire, however my SR toon was more survivable by a good margin. So was my /Inv, and none of them even touch my /WP toon on SOs. Yeah, Shield Charge helped keep the set alive, but then we all know what an outlier that was.
And before the AAO thing is thrown out there, it's really only the builds that have come close to the soft-cap that can really pimp the hell out of this by sitting perfectly safe in a large group for extended periods of time. I know I rarely could. -
Quote:Agreed. Giving just a little love to SR would go a long way. There are no realistic complaints about any of the other secondaries, and now that scrappers will have access to shadow meld, to think SD requires even more nerfing is absurd.Originally Posted by Biospark
Super Reflexes has always been a "one-trick" pony. Granted that one thing it does, it does better than everyone else. The power that IOs brought was to add to other sets the ability to "layer" their forms of survival with SR's trick. Even Shields has layering that puts SR to shame and provides its Defense "trick" with considerably fewer power picks.
If the Devs really want to help SR out they should look at adding layers to SR's survival (not dependant on being hurt) and consider giving the "basics" of SR with fewer power picks and earlier in their career.
Nerfing Shields even more is not the right choice. Instead of "pushing" people away from one set, you should "draw" their attention to another.
I can understand your viewpoint on this Umbral, and am not diasgreeing with your numbers. But I have always considered the extra damage as a unique "layer" of survival for Shields that replaces "healing", "regen", or "utility" powers. Overall, I think that if you remove SC from the equation, AAO makes much more sense and is not overpowered. AAO + BU + SC is such an obvious thing, that it actually overshadows the characters other attack powers. Since they probably will not turn SC into a "hurl" type power like I want, I guess we are kinda stuck with the +damage concerns for the set. -
Quote:The argument is not about shield charge - the nerf/change has already been implemented, now try to keep up.Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
If you do that at all you end up gimping everybody who hasn't poured a billion inf into their toon, or who isn't melee. You start giving everything to-hit buffs, you not only make life more difficult for the softcapped Scrappers, you make it more difficult for the Blaster who pops a purple to get through a tough fight, and the team bubbler gets to feel useless.
We all had fun playing with our overpowered Shield Charge, now get over it. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Death_Badger
Many people enjoy many sets however there is nothing currently in the game that can make something as boring as shield can. Do missions with 2+ shield scrappers and good luck being able to actually use any of your powers, you are basically just along for the ride....not fun, kind of like were tanks were pre ED in terms of excitement.
Sounds like a predominately single target scrapper would feel on a team with blasters, controllers, dominators, corruptors or mm's using all of their aoe's. This game is about aoe's, especially on a team - if you don't have aoe's on a team, you tend to get overshadowed. SD gives scrappers some added aoe. Not to mention the aoe it gives just got cut in half in terms of damage dealing ability. Despite the added aoe, scrappers are still behind many other at's in terms of value added to teams, though that is as it should be. -
Quote:Great, another shield charge fiasco? Well at least whoever wants to use shadow meld probably has over a year before castle realizes it's overpowered and 'fixes' it, lol.Originally Posted by Hejtmane
Yea I had all those arguments I have a build planned out it take 3 purple sets and I have a billion on hand so I ay be able to pull it off right now but I was thinking about taking by db/ela I have and get him Shadow Meld. I have enough recharge to push perma energize and have roughly a 8-9 second gap on SM if I wanted
I think it will be nerfed my guess the APP/PPP where rushed and the devs ignored them so I am going to hold off a bit because I want to so take advantage of that bad design -
Quote:Originally Posted by Werner
I should probably admit that while I talked about what the devs probably intended, I also couldn't give a flying rats *** what the devs intended. I care how enjoyable the game is.
Perhaps what I should have said instead was something like "I think this game would be more fun if the answer for survivability wasn't almost ALWAYS to add more defense. I think more variety of solutions would be nice, such as how Regeneration survivability benefits some from defense, but more from huge recharge. I would like to see something like Dark Armor be just as solid if you build it for resistance and healing, so that the sets have more variety in the end game. I think variety is good." It just so happens that I think this sort of variety is what the devs intended, so I used that as a poor sort of shorthand. It's more clear if I spell things out, though, and doesn't rely on a point that I think is irrelevant - what the devs intended.
How enjoyable the game is - YES, that is what the devs should focus on. People ENJOY SD, so stop messing with it, lol. Fix the sets that people do not enjoy. The seem to be trying to do that with fire armor, good. I agree that resist/heal sets need some love - but the answer isn't ruining what many players enjoy doing, which is building for defense, the answer is in creating options to build for resist/heal builds that offer similar survivability.
Weakening and dumbing down the sets people enjoy playing to match the sets people don't enjoy playing does nothing but piss off players and lose customers. As much as the nerf crowd cries overpowered or how game breaking stuff is, theres nothing in this game that is so out of wack that it's ruining the game.
And as has been mentioned, if something is overperforming a bit, it's just as easy to tweak enemies to compensate. Take defense for example. Softcapping makes you very tough, MOST of the time. There are things in this game that makes softcap defense pretty much meaningless - def debuffs and plus to hit. Defense builds doing too well? Just add more to hit buffs and def debuffs. When I see a bunch of nemesis missions in my future, I put my SD away and grab my WP. Of course if you do that too much then you end up gimping the set/builds that were doing too well.
People enjoy SD, leave it alone. WP is a fan favorite for its nice mix of survivability and end tricks, good to go there. Inv just got some recent buffs, and with its mix of res/def, it's doing pretty nicely. DA probably has the biggest mix of tricks and is the most diverse set, and while not incredibly popular with the masses, those familiar with it know how ridiculously good it can be, and how diverse it is in terms of what you want it to do. Regen is a fun set because it's by far the most active and engaging set, and the best set for pvp by far. Elec is a nice mix of offense and defensive abilities with a great end recovery power. SR is really the only set that could use a bit of tweaking in my opinion, to make it more fun to level up, and to give it something to compete with the other sets in top end io'd out builds. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
mmmm, claws/sd
Softcapped, doublestacked followup, saturated AAO, spin, eviscerate, shieldcharge...
*sigh*
The first SD I wanted to make was a claws/sd. I admit it, I shed a tear when I realized it could not be done... -
I agree that in the SO game, SR is fine, but with IO's, it gets surpassed by most secondaries, not drastically so, but passed nonetheless.
I would suggest a few changes to SR. One, lessen the endurance usage of the set a bit. Two, do something with elude to make it more usefull in the IO age where SR is ridiculously easy to softcap already, maybe add a heal to it.
I also agree that the biggest strength SR has, and it is a notable one, is defense debuff resists. While building defense is easy, resisting debuffs is not. Go take a soft capped defense toon with no debuff resistance into a roman mob and see how fast you get beaten down. This should be noted by those who call for further nerfs to SD. While I agree that SD should not be able to reach the same debuff resistance as SR as easily, I don't see it as a problem being done as it is (late game with very expensive HO's).
The devs should avoid weakening sets that players enjoy and improve those they avoid. I think werner has the right idea in that you can balance things by altering enemies and content without making this game city of nerfs.
And when I hear people talking about what the devs 'intended', I often think maybe they should rethink what their intent is. If I'm not mistaken, it was never originally intended for players to be able to do things like soloing av's. This forum should be evidence enough how much players love being able to build toons to solo av's. Being able to build toons to high levels of performance should not automatically be frowned upon and incite the devs to draw their nerfbats. -
Quote:What numbers did you come up with for single target dps?Originally Posted by Silverado
And a very erroneous one.
Kinetic Melee is miles better than DP, and the ST DPS it can reach is just slightly lower than Fire (with much lower +rech reqs, too)
It does seem a bit lacking on the AoE department, though. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Hejtmane
The final solution was it was kept at 90s recharge
Stages/tiered what ever you want to call it on the damage. 5' radius and 20' radius so we get the splash damage effect (like LR) so at point of impact does more damage and everything outside that 5' radius does less damage
The power is still good just not the mini nuke it is on live now
Wasn't the 5' radius set due to melee range? Shouldn't it be 7' now? -
My fire/sd is my favorite toon, its a nice mix of survivability, single target dmg and aoe dmg (especially aoe dmg which is the name of the game on teams).
Looking at the build you're using, while its not bad, I have a few suggestions to make your fire/sd experience all that it can be...
For a single target chain, I suggest using scorch, cremate and incinerate. They're all fast hitting attacks, with relatively good end usage and recharge. The quick hitting attacks are nice on teams since you wont be doing any corpse smashing with longer attacks, which means no damage is wasted. I can take down a pylon in about 5 min using that chain. And when you slot your single target attacks, its a waste to use kinetic combats imo - go with full sets of touch of death or makos - they give you a great melee or range def bonus, good all around numbers, and a damage proc to boost your dps.
Get some membrane exposures into active defense for some extra defense debuff resistance. It's also a good idea to get a bit extra melee defense, which your build does seem to have.
Obliterations are fine in shield charge because its not up that much, so the lack of end reduction isnt a big deal. But in fire sword circle, you need some end reduction because that sucker is going to be up a lot and you're going to be spamming it. I go with a full set of multistrikes, or you could go with sirroccos. On a build that is going to be spamming aoes, even with great end recovery, you need to reduce end usage in your aoes as much as possible.
Fire/SD is mosty about offense. I say go all in or go home. Get into fire mastery my friend. If you take my single target suggestion, you save a power by replacing fire sword and greater fire sword. Then drop one with the shield, because once you're soft capped, you won't need it. Then drop conserve power, and make sure your aoe's have lots of end red, and get you some more fiery goodness. You have to take char, but then you get fireblast which is a decent damage range power, and then you get the added aoe glory that is fireball. Slotting fireball can vary wildly, I use 4 ragnaroks and an end reducer, but just remember to get as much end reduction in as possible, as this power will be up almost as much as FSC, and you will be spamming it to your enemy's dismay.