Cuppa_LLX

Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect

See, here I was thinking I was using a pretty narrow brush, to use your term.

I don't care about farming in the slightest. I am not an anti-farmer. I am anti-exploitation.

I, unlike many others I have seen, am aware that there is a difference between farming and exploiting.

If you are farming (the way the term is meant) you are maximizing the gain you can get out of one or two particular missions. The reward is generally only greater because it is run by an efficient team that is skilled at defeating foes quickly. Not everyone is capable of this, as it requires ATs that work well together, players that work well together, and most importantly, players that know what they're doing.

If you are exploiting, you are cheating, plain and simple. You have found a loophole in the game that allows you to gain out of proportion rewards for little or no risk, or even effort.

The all Boss, EB, or AV farms are just that, farms. Your average team will not fare well in these missions because the enemies are difficult enough one at a time, let alone in groups. It takes a skilled team to get any kind of decent reward rate out of these missions.

The healing mito farms, on the other hand, are an exploit. Any moron can enter these missions and level like mad, while never even being targeted by an enemy, let alone take enough damage to be in danger. You don't even need enhancements on your characters because there is no threat.

I once met a SR scrapper that leveled exclusively in a mito farm. He was level 50 and joined the STF I was on. He had exactly 3 powers from his secondary: Agile, Practiced Brawler, and Focused Fighting (that he never toggled on, I only know he had it because you HAVE to take it) He also had 3 travel powers, which boggled me because in AE you don't need to travel anywhere. The powers were started with Flurry, Jump Kick, and TP Foe. He had the Presence pool, and ALL of his primary (DM I think) including the taunt. His tactic was to run in every spawn before the tank could get there and fire off Dark Consumption (not even Soul Drain, because that might actually make sense) he was wondering why he kept dying, and never onec changed his strategy, instead blaming the rest of the team for his repeated deaths. In the course of conversation the team discovered that the first mission of the STF was the first time his character had ever been attacked. I checked myself, sure enough, no damage badges, which any SR would have at least the first one of by level 50. He asked us what the dark stuff on his xp bar was, he'd never been in debt before.

Any mission that would allow a character with that pathetic of a build to reach level 50 without ever dying is an obvious exploit. Most people would figure out that since they were dying so much, maybe there's something wrong with the way I built this character. But since he had never taken so much as a point of damage, he never knew there was anything wrong with it.

Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect

The problem I have isn't with farmers, or farm missions in AE, or even people who rip off copyrighted characters.

My problem is with the attitude of "I pay my $15 a month, therefore, your rules don't apply to me."

No different than saying "I pay my taxes, so I shouldn't have to obey your laws"

The second statement is obviously ridiculous, and in any situation where you present that as a defense (in court, for example) you will probably be laughed at.

So why is the first statement so common? Why is it when people get caught breaking a rule and are punished for it they view it as some great injustice?

The game is a service that NCSoft provides it's players. You pay for this service. You agree to certain terms every single time you log into the game.

Outlined in those terms, among other things, is that exploiting anything in the game is not allowed. Every last person who was punished for exploiting was punished for violating something that they themselves agreed to.

"But Claws, who actually READS that crap?!"

Simple answer: Anyone who wants to know exactly what they're agreeing to.

Sorry, but if you sign a contract (which that essentially is) without reading it, you have NO right to complain that you were punished for violating it. It's not like they're hiding it, it's right there every time you log into the game.

Personally, I NEVER sign anything without reading it, I read the EULA the very first time I logged in becuse I wanted to know what I was agreeing to when I clicked "I agree" I read it again periodically just to make sure nothing has changed recently.

An AE exploit is loosely defined as "anything that breaks the risk/reward ratio"

I don't consider all boss farms to be such an exploit. Most of them are damned difficult. There is a lot of reward, but also plenty of risk.

On the other hand, the healing mito farms are/were such an exploit. You get xp for something that does not fight back. The reward is there, the risk is nonexistent. That is a good example of "breaking the risk/reward ratio"

I agreed to the terms where that was outlined as an offense. I am not committing that offense.

JoeSchmoe here also agreed to the same terms, only he IS committing an offense. In all likelyhood he will eventually be caught and somehow punished for it.

It doesn't matter how you get caught. Whether it is reported by another player or a GM stumbles across it on their own is completely irrelevant. You have no legitimate defense in that situation.

Ignorance of the terms of agreement does NOT excuse you, just ask any number of bands that signed a contract without reading it only to find out the record company owns everything they did. Just for grins, ask a lawyer if you can be excused from a signed contract because you didn't read it and didn't know what you were agreeing to. Depending on how polite the lawyer is, they may or may not laugh in your face.

"I pay my $15 a month!" isn't a defense either, because so does everyone else. If they didn't violate an agreement and you did, you will be punished and they won't. There's nothing unfair about it, no matter how much anyone claims otherwise.

The people who report such things are usually looking at it from the perspective that they are obeying the terms of agreement, and it is not right for someone else to ignore them and get away with it. The vast majority of those people, if they are caught violating it themselves, will accept their punishment without complaint, because it is fair.

(Note: The "you" used extensively in this post is a general "you" and not directed at anyone in particular)

Originally Posted by Frosticus

The vast majority of boss farms I've been on generally have at least 1 death per spawn. If and when something goes wrong I haven't seen very much vanilla content that can wipe a team that fast. I've seen boss farms vaporize granite brutes in about 6 seconds

+2-4 bosses hit for about 600-700 damage with their melee attack(s) and 300+ with their ranged. Most squishies have less than 1,200 hp. If the agro control fails, squishies die in the blink of an eye. When a couple of the buff/debuff squishes drop then the "meat" lasts a few more seconds with no support.

Before I attained soft capped s/l defense on my /kin troller I would die a LOT, now I generally don't die unless there is a team breakdown. I still see most trollers that go anywhere near the spawn face down in mere seconds.

For me boss farms are the most enjoyable thing in this game right now. Massive risk, very good reward. To me it feels like taking on a couple AV's at the same time, except the reward is actually fair.

That said, some boss farm teams you get on are awesome. If you get a good foundation of 3-4 strong players with good builds then you fly through the mobs. Just like any high level taskforce or mission team that ends up netting you ridiculous rewards relative to most pugs.

Sure boss farms could be made more difficult with buff/debuff, or mezzing, or bosses with impressive defenses, but as it stands they are still harder than almost all vanilla content.

Originally Posted by Barata

They can be very challenging. Likewise, they can be very easy when the mobs are designed with an attack type that the author happens to have the highest defense against, and designed with the least resistance to the attack type the author happens to have.

Originally Posted by EvaDestruction

I don't farm, so answer me this: Do any of these "challenging" all boss missions have a variety of enemies with debuffs, controls, exotic damage types, armors, or any powers beyond the bare minimum of what they're forced to have? And how many of the really popular ones let you set your difficulty, so you can determine what level of "challenge" you want to attempt, rather than automatically being forced to face +2s or +4s?

Originally Posted by Bright_Shadow

I don't think it's wrong if someone reports an arc.

Reporting an arc merely puts a flag on the particular arc.

It's up to the developers and moderators to decide what to do with it.

You can click that report button on any arc you want!

Originally Posted by NuclearToast

Not me. All boss mission = farm. And there's no echo. <shrug>

--NT

Originally Posted by Lady_Sadako

Have you ever heard of a non-exploitative farm getting deleted?

(This is an honest question. I don't actually know what the GMs will and won't delete.)

Originally Posted by Obsidian_Farmer

This is the only part i read that gets me.

Khelds are a new creation specific to the game, sure, but there are still at least a dozen RP reasons to modify the colors of kheld abilities. A couple of examples: Perhaps the character is a mimic/shape shifter who idolizes the Peacebringers, but to keep himself distinct uses red abilities, or the person who was joined with the Warshade symbiont has some natural aspect of him or herself that alters the energy generated to turn it blue.

So, yes, they're baked into the story one way, but there are ways that make complete sense in the universe the game is set to allow customization for those abilities.

Originally Posted by El_Dudereeno

The only changes I would like to see to Traps are:

Triage Beacon - make it mobile

PGT - increase base Accuracy

Tripe Mine - allow interrupt reduction enhancements

Time Bomb - make it work like Omega Maneuver

Originally Posted by Chill_Out

I really could care less what other people do with their costumes, if they look like heroes or villains, or vice versa, or if they are giant towering columns of yellow ice.

I put up with rainbow-dyed plate-armored ogres in the bazaar in EQ. I can live with anything :P