Cuppa_LLX

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Your resists

90 to S/L
38 to T/Ene/Ele
0 to Psi

That's with even level SOs. Hardly enough against any foe that uses mostly non-S/L.

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Hm at lvl 40: Rikti bosses with Psi, CoT with plenty of Fire/Energy, Devouring Earth toxins, Council energy weapons... Yep, lots of non-S/L. Again, all on Invincible, solo and teamed.

So "Hardly enough" is just not true. I can really understand how those who play City of Spreadsheets would freak out when the numbers change so much. I'd encourage them to take a step back and think if maybe there might be other ways to *play* beyond the ones they've tried. Pop those insprs, use the terrain the manage aggro, make the most of any teammates.

It *can* be done, it's not even that hard (no ueber player here, my 5 between lvls 30 and 40 and nothing higher), and I've seen plenty of others post similar accounts.

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Your insuferable, we tell you we play our character, we tell you we die, and you shout back "play the character and use the envron" have you ever cosider that your playstyle is radically different then others and that as w have stated numerous times I5 is forcing ups to change our PLAYSTYLE into a COKKIE CUTTER to survive.

and you respond with "change your playstyle to match mine, follw the mold, do not deviate."

*sigh* what part of "thats the problem" do you not understand

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Once agian my point. This isnt a beta test. We shouldnt have to wonder and guess. And saying that i shouldnt see it coming is just rediculous. They spent all that time nerfing concealment and forgot khleds? Well if that is the case then they still owe me a respec. That is what these boards are for. I had thought that they had left those builds alone for a reason but as it turns out they probably forgot all about it and then when they realized sayed oh crap better do it quick. I dont accept your explination and we shouldnt have to guess or read the minds of the devs. How long should have i waited to respec her? 3 weeks? a month? 2 weeks before the next issue?

Ultimatly the complaint revolves around the devs ponying up and admiting they screwed up and fixing the problem.

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Not much I can say other than :

"Welcome to CoH."

I feel for ya, really I do, but the people that can do something about it and actually fix things don't give a rats [censored] about any of our opinions unless it mirrors their own. I haven't respec'd any of my characters. Why you ask? Because the characters in need of the respec now aren't my characters, they're Jack's characters. Why should I give a rats [censored] about someone else's characters?

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See thats woud be inconvient for jack, he has what a few thousand characters so he...er...we pay him to play his character for him.

tjat worse then herding and power leveling no matter how you cut it.

When wre PAYING to play somone elses character it aint right

And what about the changes to after I5:

Dull Pain effect
Force fields (sepciflyc force bubble)
Super reflexes passives (which were nurfed into obscurity in if and nove given a higher DEFEDE DEBUFF RESIST the nthe toggle s give them a value to get)
What about the changes to Ice Tankers and Stone to ad DEfDebuffResist?
Enervating Field's blatent lies

All this changes were done either post I5 or pre I% and never acknoledged even whe npresent evidence, theyeven went so far as to say that reports about EF were untrute the turn around and say they were true from the begining.

And you think 1 respect with I5 is enough when thei aret continuing to REBLANACE POWER OVER AND OVER AGAIN despites jacks BLATEN LIE he woud not change any more power sets?

AS it stands now im PETRIFED to use any respec, in a week the power st has a 80% chance to be changed.

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Wholeheartedly agree. I played a Def to 50, and loved it. Got my kheld (after the fixes) and loved it right up to 34, when I5 hit. With every bit of tactics and strategy my mind can muster, I can barely survive a fight with a standard group of mobs, and this is after firing off my heal twice and having every applicable defense power up and going since the start.

CoH has moved away from the concept of "you can team if you want, and you can solo if you want" to "You can team in this game, and I *guess* you can solo, but we wouldn't recommend it". That was the thing I really truly loved, I could team up when I felt more social, and solo when my mood was less than pleasant. No such luck now. After trying out the I5 for 3 days straight, I could barely stand it, and god forbid I encountered a boss solo.

But I'm not gonna sit here and do what most people do when they're upset by the nerfs. I'm not gonna threaten to quit... no sir. I did it, two weeks ago (just stopped by to see if anything has changed).

So long, CoH. It was fun!

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the /only/ reason im still here is i have /5/ friends still playing this game

they go...i go...

Simple
As
Fact

and 2 of them are considering leaving for DAoC and WoW

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You hit it pretty much on the head there, Lycantropus.

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exactly...

honestly i agree invuln WAS over powered byt now its UNDERPOWERED

and as ive saind since I5 was on test it really rather simple to fix...

Invuln has no special effects its just dmg mitigation, no slow, no mez, nothing.

~70% for S/l is fine
~34% energy/ele(and toxic damn it you lazet DEVEL psi was soupose to be the killer Tonic was supose to be like sonics just another type of energy) is not

~70% elenry/ele would fix IMHO invuln.

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And for tanks... this is something of a strange one for me. I've always seen them as overpowered. They were the only class in the game in which there was never really any desire to have more than one on the team. One tank could usually handle the agro for multiple 8-man spawns. Any more than one tank and things were usually so easy that the rest of the team could toss the occasional buff and let the blasters and tanks and scrappers mop everything up.

Any class that has a 90% resistance to the most common forms of damage *and* a way to avoid getting hit at all is quite simply overpowered. Yeah, you may have felt super. This is all well and good... but it was far too easy. It's like playing on cheat mode.

Any class that can herd and take down an entire 8-man spawn at the level cap and on the highest difficulty setting needs serious looking at and rebalancing. Sometimes it's hard to objectively look at something you have such an emotional investment in. And it is quite hard to see your character brought down to the level where they're only *sometimes* the star of the show instead of being the star and sole actor, for the most part.

Now we're at a point when the tank can't hold agro with ease for the entire team. When the team has to support the tank and the tank has to support the team. So far all the tanks I've regularly grouped with have adapted to the new situation. They're thriving. The basic difference is that they simply looked at the new environment, adopted new tactics that were more appropriate to the situations, and are now thriving like ever before. Just not quite as show-stopping.

The tanks I've grouped with that have been having trouble are universally attempting to force their old tactics to work in new situations. These are also the ones that I've noticed complained more about I5 than anyone else. Lots of people are now using multiple tactics instead of the simple (and boring for me) tactic of buff tank, tank goes in, wait for mission complete.

One change that I'd like to see for tanks that would likely make their jobs a whole lot easier would be to allow Gauntlet to be slotted for Taunt Duration.

As it stands, though, people are still able to do their jobs. In group environments, though, they just need to adopt different tactics and actually work together. You know, be a group.

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Have you considered what it is to be a post-40 Invul tank who wants to solo?

Have you read the plethora of posts in the Tanker forum agreeing that Invul needed to be toned down, but not [censored]?

Are you aware that Fire and Stone both have better non Smash/Lethal resistances than Invul?

Invulnerablility was designed originally as a Resistance based powerset. Now, once you get Invincibility, it becomes a Defense based powerset. This isn't a change of tactics. This is a destruction of concept. You cannot build a playable Invulnerability Tanker whose concept is to stand there and take damage for a team. Not after lvl 20. What's more, is that in order to maximize the defense bonus for Invincibility, you have to herd. Have to herd. Believe it or not, there are Tankers who don't like to herd!

I don't like to herd. I don't like PvP. I loved playing Tankers. I5 screwed me. I got the impression that you don't play Tanks. If you don't, then don't bother to tell me what you think my favorite AT needs. I get enough of that from Jack Emmert.

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amen, the onlyherding i di in I4 was lets see

a room from of green to blue clock works
a hollows full of Greys
a Attal mission full of -6 to -3?

that un balacing?

my standard modus operandi was 14 mobs, i nice sizable grou that depeding the team was either 1 or 2 spawns.

That over powered?

And yet i can live with Invuln in I5 to a FAULT, the fault being it need to be BALLANCED, infuln has no special effect liek slow (ice), DOT (fire) status effect (stone) its just...

taking a pounding and dodging...

thats it

and for that we get elmental/energy reduced to 34%

i can live withthe 74% s/l but for a set based soly on takigna beating with no special effect Elenrgy and elements need to match up...

Either that or you need to give invuln SOMETHING special about it.

oh ya and fix Ice, i knwo they make good slusies when dead but ive had quite my fill of blue berry slusies from ice tanks.

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ive read about 90% negative and 10% that praise it. last night CoH was so empty i had no one in my global no one in my SG or coalation. and i have a ton. i have watched several good friends leave recently to play WoW. states has made it clear its his game. with in 2 years DC an Marvel will have there MMPOG out then we will see a game that really works like a buisness and not on a single minded vision that ignores the concerns of its paying customers.

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thats cause to jack their a math to responses

Negative / 9
positive x 12

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First, a big thank you to everyone who played on the Training Room server and helped I5 to be one of our best launches ever! We’re extremely happy about how I5 went live.

Second, we’re still scouring the boards for bugs and other issues, but we’ve finished making large changes to the power sets. We’ll still be looking at issues as the arise. For instance, there are issues with Defense builds; we’re going to look at that problem more carefully (the Damage Resistance Inspirations are a step, but there's a little more to come).

Thanks for all your great feedback!

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bolded for emphisis

oh reeeeeeealy?

Soi gues Enervating Field, Stealth, Phase Shift, Quantum Flight, Nebulos Form, uh i miss any?

Arent power sets.

I gues LYING about reducing EF,even goign so far as to pot inthe past notes "changes to EF shave been coming in since I2, still not true" your own words, not mine. the stating in the "missing patch notes" "EF change to be brough in line with similar powers cause it was over powered, done at the begining of I5" again your own words isnt a Change toa power set?

i guess reducing the STEATH AND DEFENSE component of STEALTH and makingit non STACKABLE dont count as changes?

making phase, QF and NF timed toggles that shut off or increase their end cost affet X seconds dont count as changes?

REAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLY that interesting, you know in the legan system saying one thing in print that a complete and total lie is called libal. And while it is often used in the terms of defimation of character the essense emains the same.

You need to have somoen approve your posts Jack because what your saying is a direct contrdiction to what your doing.

and thats

Simple
As
Fact

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Guys, just remember that getting the CoV pre-order doesn't mean you get into the closed beta right away. If they handle it the way they did with CoH (which seems to be the case from every official thing I have seen on the subject) Pre-orders allow you to get into the beta 2 weeks or so before CoV goes live (which is not going to be for a while). So don't get your hopes and think that buying the pre-order will mean you get a beta invite right away. The only people who are getting beta invites are the ones who have been selected for the first wave (selected from the list of people who have had paying accounts since the beginning, SOME of those people not all of them).

Getting the pre-order of CoV allows you to get the special item (in this case one of the helmets), some other bonus materials, an invite to the beta JUST before it hits live (I believe CoH gave the Pre-orders access to beta about 2 weeks before it hit live it certainly wasn't much longer than that), and the 3 day head start (which was the game went live, but the first 3 days only the pre-orders were able to play, day 4 everyone who purchased th game could play).

From the way people are talking on this thread, it sounds like people think that getting the pre-order is going to let them into the beta right away. None of the information that has been officially posted about the beta and how the beta will work suggests that. You guys may want to adjust your expectations of the pre-order accordingly.

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ya liek this CoH beta vetran, who still inst invited...

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I would like to know,
are the bonus items included if COV is reserved instore or are they included via pre-order? Are the items avialable to Canadians like myself?

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I'll try and throw you a bone, Demon_Soldier.

<ul type="square">[*]I know that the bonus disk inside the pre-order box has the pre-order serial code that unlocks the in-game item.[*]I know that the retail box comes the physical doodads, (the Collector's Edition comes with 7 HeroClix figurines). The serial code inside the retail box DOES NOT unlock the in-game item.[*]I know that there is a difference from pre-ordering CoV and merely reserving a copy of CoV at a brick-and-mortar store for Launch Day, so if you pre-order from a physical store, you better walk away with a pre-order disc at this point or else they likely sold you the wrong product. Some retail outlets have not received their pre-order boxes yet, and some hourly wage employees are not intellectually curious, so you might call a store first to make sure they have what you want before you make the trip.[*]I have NO idea about the nuances of getting CoV in Canada.[/list]
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as a side note i pre ordered COV CE and it seems to be a actual pre order as they said the bonus disc will be sent soon

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I am in London, Ontario, Canada. Best Buy, EB Games, and Future Shop(Canadian version of Best Buy, Best Buy owns it) have no clue what I am talking about. I was told at EB games that they usually wont get any promotions for winter releases till October, even if the Pre-order is already released. Hope that helps at all. If anyone can give me ANY info as to how I could get it sooner I would truley Appreciate it. Thank you.

PS
Still miffed I didn't get an invite, had pre-order and beta tested Coh lol

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i feel ya brother heck Clintonian sint isnt invited and only only /3/ days younger then he is on the forum reg.

and yes i was in beta and preorder, oh and i have the CE

sorry 'bout that.

Basicly we should have all recently got the pre-oder cov news letter.

im curious if the CE has all its gooddies + the pre order goodies.

Quick q sicne i coutn find it in here

i ordered the Colectors ed will ti coem with al lthe pre order stuff their promoting in the latestes newsletter as well?

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Hero14 is right, in spite of what Statesman says, I really see no role for us. When I5 was first brought to Test, I copied Kara to there at level 27, and faceplanted in my first group of the pumpkinheads. I lasted less than 10 seconds. Hopped off tram, saw them, engaged, and watched health plummet.

Now my choices are to be a scrapper lacking damage but with a taunt component (which I can no longer call a good thing since my ability to survive is gimped) and slightly better defenses, or a herding taunt-bot who can pretty much give up on soloing and instead focus on pool powers and maxing limited primary powers.

Statesman says no herding, then says he hit Taunting to make it more fun (for him) by having to constantly micromanage the foes with different attacks, and then tells us to herd as having 12 foes in melee range will make us as tough as we used to be (Def only). Short of herding, when do we have 12 whole bad guys on us? Carrying our own posse of 12 minions with us to the AV just to survive is BS! And as we take out our 12 (that we somehow hold onto with reduced Taunt effectiveness), the number of hits we take climbs as we thin the herd.

BAD.

I love Kara, she is my solo goddess, my Supergirl! With I5, I don't want to gut her concept, but I also can't play her concept. I am shelving her until most of the changes are rolled back. Looking at how much better Fire tankers are with fewer slots and powers, and how much tougher Kheldians are with only 4 SOs in one power, I stand dismayed. Our only consolation for having to take more powers and spend 35 slots in them for less RES is that we can taunt better than a Kheldian. Sure we still can taunt, but our soloing in the last half of the game is gone. Sure we can still help parties, but with FF types giving DEF with bubbles, and Sonics giving RES with their screams, any squishie can survive on the frontlines without us. No role exists, just hire FF and Sonics to the team and carry on without tankers.

I am working on an ice/ice/cold blaster now. Did I mention in my first posts to this thread that I hate playing blasters because they are squishie? Well, so is Kara. S/L isn't such a big deal when you face CoT/CoS/BP/Electrics/Fire/Dark/Energy types that I am seeing more and more of. With the numbers on the passives being reduced so low, if I continue to play Kara, the slots in Resist En/El will be moved into Invincibility and Laser Beam Eyes and Unstoppable. She will be a slow scrapper. If I wanted to play a Scrapper, I would have made one.

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i posted this in a coupel thread already my typo filled email to statys on the nerf and aciving "his vision"

not the size of my posts vs his replies

on the nature of balance

Sent to: Statesman

You have stated that "fighting statues is no fun" and that you want to "ballance the leveling across the board" and ive stated my counter argument several times. Its about time i told you directly.

1: any build tht is optimal will be barly effected by your nerfs, that is by definition what optimal is. However not everyon is optimal, in fact just last week i teamed witha Blaster who at lvl 17 was still using trainings but was so skilled i swore he was using Duels, had he been a invuln tank in I5 or a contler hes be plasted because to optimize these ATs you need SOs and a specific build.

The simple fact is those less then optimal are kicked in the cajones while those who are optimal are using a athleetes cup, its hurts but doesnt cripple them.

So how do you decrease this devide instead of magnify it?

you lower not eveerthing but the optimal, to take tanks down to a max of say 80% instead of 90% resist or you raise the other arch types resists higher. You increase the defenive buff not decrease them of a power pool

see by decreasing the pool you make Blasters and defenders more squisky, they need that piddly 20-30% def boost to increase their survivability.

Are you woried about Resist tank taking Def powers to up their over all defense?

then treat it like Leadership

Blasters, defenders, and controlers get more of a boost from pool defense then tankers and scrappers

"but what about soloing a 8 man invincible"

buddy let me tel you something, last night on live my team was having troble doing a 8 man tenacious, wed be toast in I5

again optimal vs non optimal

Optimals maximize what is there, they are optimal, so for them lower the bar, dont lower the bar in general.

if you can scale Leadership to a archetype then you can surly scale other powers

now on to being held

as it stand in I5 a non optimal controler will get one use of the Mass controsl once per 3 battles...think about that...Ive tested it i know, you made hasten a requirment

also we dont like to be made into statues, so i all fairness shoudlt we be more resistent to holds? i dont enjoy sittingtheir for 5 minutes held

The answer to fightingand being statues is simple, simpl y increase the mag resistice of a mob and player

and for the love of god give us back the original recharge rate the AOE target numbers and half duration are punishment enough but if it takes 3 fights to charge a power....

I've been here since beta, i here to help you
i am also aprogramer i knwo the work it takes to make changes

but pissing off the player base is not a good choice.

Re: on the nature of balance

From: Statesman

First - you state general observations. Interesting - but what's your experience like on the Training Room server? I've played Controllers - solo and team - and done just fine on missions (Heroic to Invincible).

Second - scaling mob resistances would simply leave the Controllers impotent. It would take multiple uses of powers to net any effect. I think you'd agree that this is sub-optimal.

Re: on the nature of balance

Sent to: Statesman

My optimal build FF denfeders (30 defmese sltos of SO, 6 to hit so in tactics) is barly effected.

My lvl 19 Tanker running on DOS is going down vys a single mob spawn of 7 white to yellow lost

my mind controler can pull of at best /1/ hold per 3 battles and 1 mass sleep

on live my tanker can hold her own against those 7 lost, shes not perfect heck just last nigh i hereded a room full of green to white clockworks and my health slowly droped.

my controler on life can pull over 1 mass hold per battle and 3 mass sleeps.

a optimal build of either may not be challanged by the live system but i sure am.

Ive teamed with a BLASTER who at lv 17 was running with TRAININGS, yes TRAININGS and i was sure he was using DOs, but when our TF conversation turned to musing on "POs, those prometheus orgins enhacments really kick Hammi o butt" he went "Hammie o?" and later after explaining Hammires, and SO and DOs i took hinm to Subgeneics (he wasa fellow mutant). He looked over the list "thies nothing special here" told him to scroll down and this guy who was running tranings and kickign butt discovered his first DO

These are the people who become optimals, they can squeses just about everything out of their powers. but MOST players arent like that.

out of 28 alts only pinky my bubbler is optimal.

That why hacking of defense (for example) at the knees does work. Their a threadi made in the trainign room called Guide: how to aim the nerf axe" which basicly give a nice graphic example of my point

if you set the Bat at the base and swing your Optimals are 7 feet tall, your sub optimals 5 feet tall, the Bat is swung at 2 feet

what happends if you hit a 7 foot man wit ha bat at 2 feet and a 5 foot man with a bat at 2 feet?

But

if you aim the BAT high say 6.5 feet, you take the head of the optimals and th sub optimals arent hurt in the process as their a foot and a half short.

I dont know your true stand on power leveling but PL are Optimals and with all the I5 nerfs they have /already/ found a way to cary on same as before with only a few minor changes.

But those of use who are not perfect, well we left wit heverying below the wasit smashed by the Nerf Bat while the optimals just have a bruised knee.

i posted in the mentioned thread some of my "Hack high" thoughts thats just my opionion though

in gneral how i whoud have acomplied your goals is different

you want to make Tankers less god like right?

if you lower the bases sub optimals suffer but if you keep the MAX CAP at 90% but lower the MAX cap ACHIVABLE by a tankers powers thn you get the same EXACT result but it protects those who havent optimazed their enhacments.

how do you do this?

2 way ocoem to mind, reduce the CUMULATIVE effect of sos (maybe 33%, for the first 27% for the second of same type, etc)

or

set in a second cap powers on theoir own MAX out at X, a defender can buff you past that to Y which is your AT cap.

then look at Tough and WEAVE is it REALLY game breaking for a BLASTER or defender to have a 30% def? sure i see your point it over power a tank, so do what you did with manuvers

blaster, controler,s and denfeders get more of a bunus then say tankers and scrappers for toug hand weave just like Leadership is best boosted on a Defender.

For controler holds you coud up the enemi Mag resistance or up their abilty to shrung off a mez, by seting a AOE limt, halfing duration adn doubling rechange you make it tougher to control a right, by killing a suboptimals ability to control at all and wounding a optimal...

but if the emeines shrunged off the effects easier the nyou get the same effect BUT it means if you got several controlers they Can chain hold a mob, they just need to stack Holds, just liek they gotta do with Hammy.

i think that covers everthing....

i miss any points?


Re: on the nature of balance

From: Statesman

Thanks for the feedback. Interesting.

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TopDoc, I started a FF/Dark last night on Protector for this team and i'll try to get him to 10 ASAP in order to reserve the name for the SG. Did you want it called "Tank Mages" or "Tank Magi" or somthing else?

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I'd say "Tank Mages".

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I'll re-roll as a FF/Sonic when I5 is released so that I can boost the -res component along with the others. My build will be completely team dependant and I don't intend to play him outside of the SG, I have many other heroes that I can do that with.

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That's how most people will probably be. Without Hasten, Stamina, and movement powers, these characters won't do well outside of the SG.

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Just to mention possible benefits for having a few */Dark on the team. We will not have any holds or significant status effects if we all go sonics (unless there is a status in there that i'm not aware of, I didn't check) With a few TT and dark pits we can disable significant groups of mobs. and I recently read that the FF repulsion bomb, now does disorient as well (can stack with dark pit). I'm thinking about some of those annoying mobs that are much easier dealt with status effects (I know we most likely will avoid some of them IE: Tsoo sorcerers). Also TT will help keep things together for the sonic cone attacks. As a side benefit the tohit debuff from /dark blast will help mitigate some of the damage to the FF defender seeing as they won't have capped defense like the rest of the team.

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Yep, I'd really like Dark for those same reasons. The problem is identifying the different capabilities in the power sets and evaluating them as they would be used by the SuperTeam. Sure Dark has a Disorient and an Immob. Do we want or need them? I don't really know. Think outside the box. We've already discarded 6 slotted attacks, Stamina, Hasten, and individual movement powers. Maybe we can discard locking down mobs as well.

Disoriented mobs just wander around and do not use powers. Do we really care if mobs use powers. How often do Tanks ask Controllers to lock down mobs before they move in to attack? Pretty much never. Attacks don't really worry tanks much, and we're gonna be tanks. What would worry us? I don't really know. I can't think of anything.

Dark Pit is a Magnitude 1 Disorient, which means is only affects Minions unless stacked. It has a duration of 10 seconds, or about 7 seconds versus +3 mobs, and recharges in 60 seconds. We won't care about Minions, but Lieutenants and Bosses might be worth disorienting. This might be a good attack if several Darks use it after the minions go down. That means we would need probably 4+ Darks to reliably lock down almost everything.

Immobilized mobs don't move, but they do attack. Mobs normally start out nice and clustered, and keeping them that way will help us catch lots of them with our AoEs. This is a big plus. But what if everything except bosses goes down in our alpha strike, before the mobs have had a chance to move far? Defeat removes the need for Immobilize. Against remaining bosses we'll likely use single target attacks. Immobilized mobs don't run away. Do we care if mobs run away? A little. We need to worry about staying inside stacked Dispersion bubbles.

If you can see any better uses for Disorient and Immob attacks, let me know. In a Tank Mage team, they appear to give some benefit, but they are not on the "must have" list. Otherwise the main things to compare are damage and other secondary effects. I think Sonic has better damage (see my previous post). Sonic Attacks have the Resistance debuff, but that's been taking into account looking at damage. Dark has an Accuracy debuff. Is this useful, perhaps for the FFs without double bubbles? I don't think so, now that hopefully everyone will be taking Maneuvers. One set of bubbles, two Dispersion bubbles, and 8 Maneuvers 6 slotted and run by Defenders should floor everything except maybe AVs using AoE attacks. I can't see taking Dark just for that.

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As a note on your kinetic build posted above,

I see no need to slot inertial reduction at all and the same for increase density. If we have 4 kins on the team (even 2 can cap the jumping movement i believe) casting the same buffs they don't need to be slotted. the sonics alone will cap our resists to smashing/energy right? so increase density becomes our mez protection.

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I think Inertial Reduction has a 1 minute duration, while most of the other buffs have a 2 minute duration. It's likely that this will be cast in the middle of combat, or under other conditions that are less than ideal. As such, it won't always be stacked 4 times. I haven't tested it, so I don't know what it takes to cap it. I just put slots in there because I couldn't find a better place for them.
Increase Density as I had it doesn't need slots. But I think it could be nice at low levels before the Sonics can 6 slot their bubbles with SOs. We'll be able to cap Smashing and Lethal from level 8 on. We'll probably want to wait till 12 for Speed Boost though, otherwise we'll be moving REAL slow. Although a single Kinetic with Siphon Speed and some stacked Increase Density could be our Tanker's Tanker at levels 6-12.

In fact, that sounds like an excellent strategy. One Kinetic takes Siphon Speed at 6 and Recall Friend at 8. They can move the team around quickly. But they can also be the kamikaze that takes the mobs alpha strike, after being buffed by some Increase Density's from the other Kins. But as you pointed out, Increase Density probably doesn't need to be slotted.

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EDIT: Same thing with the 6 slotted hovers. Speed boost affects hover speed, you bet it'll be capped with just a few applications.

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I'm not so sure. I know how to test movement (check my sig). But I haven't ever tested Speed Boost. But I suspect you're right. Hover with 4 Speed Boosts may well cap Fly speed. That said, Hover 6 slotted can be used as a safe emergency travel power, when you don't have Speed Boost. If you are defeated and the team has no Awakens, hit the Hospital and Hover back to the team. If you need to level and buy a full set of Enhancements, the rest of the team can go on without you. When you're done, Hover back to them. Hurdle would be a lot faster than Hover in those situations, and the non-Kins could easily spare another power pick for Super Jumping.

Let me turn it around and ask you what you would do with those slots? Can you find a better place for them? Maybe to slots AoE attacks for recharge so you can chain them faster?

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AtomicPhoenix: One thing to keep in mind that doesn't apply to the all-rad concept is time to buff.

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Yep, I'm aware this is gonna be a pain. And with the huge number of buffs, it'll be hard for the FFs and Sonics to know when their bubbles have run out. We probably will need to "Gather for bubbles" and "Gather for SB" constantly.

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the mini bubs on sonic last 5 minutes, ffs last 4 minutes

i think one person shoud have psi mainly cause of one reason....

it gets a early sniper....

you got me on the first page when I5 goes live expect to see my Sonic on Protector

sniker were geting a lot of sonic bu thats not bad in theory since its a SG we coud have a couple 8 man teams

See you on protector TopDog

unfortuntly virtue is uccupied by the 8 folk in my sig sure you can do it elese where ireally wanty to join you but i dont want to delete my crew

besides if we playing as a team will it really matter what server we rp on?

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Heya, I'd be interested in trying it, maybe as a kin/elec, as that's one I've never tried. But a few questions.

Why would you need more than 2 FF? As one with fully-slotted shields provides 55% defense, wouldn't 2 floor most enemies?

What would you do against psychic opponents?

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Pee in our pants

but if we hit 41 we coud go get he mind over body app :P

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I'm big on SuperTeams. That means teams that are more than just a group of people playing together. SuperTeams are teams that are SIGNIFICANTLY more than the sum of their parts.

My first SuperTeam was all-Rads. Why is an all-Rad team a SuperTeam? Because the team buffs and mob debuffs, stacked up to 8 times, are just sickly overpowering. See the SG link in my sig for the gory details. I founded the Buffer Overrun Super Group and recruited lots of Radiation/* Defenders and */Radiation Controllers. It took me 6 weeks to level a Controller from 1 to 50. We had another round of recruiting less than a month ago, and we already have multiple level 50 characters. I could make another Rad, but I want to try something new.

With Update 5, my new SuperTeam is gonna be Tank Mages. You know, the thing Statesman always says he is trying to avoid. A Tank Mage is a ranged attacker with great offense and defense. Why is it bad? Well, you don't need anyone else. You just stand there and blast mobs at range. No need for Tankers or Scrappers to Taunt, Challenge, or Provoke mobs and manage agro. No need for Controllers to control the mobs. Tank Mages have enough Defense that mob attacks can be ignored. You blast at the mobs till they decide to run, then you snipe the runners!

What AT do you need? Defenders. Nothing else. What sort of Defenders? Mainly Sonic Debuff (soon to be Sonic Resonance), and Force Field. How does it work? At low levels, Force Field Defenders can give teammates bubbles that provide Defense against most forms of damage. Sonic Debuff Defenders can give people bubble equivalents that provide Resistance. Stack a few Force Field bubbles, even the reduced ones from Update 5, and you'll drop a mobs chance to hit down to 5% for most forms of damage. Stack a few Sonic bubbles, and you'll hit the 75% Resistance cap. You will hardly ever be hit, and if you are it will hardly hurt.

How many of each Defender type do you need? It takes 4 Sonics at low levels to cap Resistance, only 3 at level 12 with some Dual Origin Enhancements, and only 2 at level 22 with Single Origin Enhancements (based on the numbers I've heard). Note that since they can't bubble themselves, the Sonics would have significantly reduced Resistance if there were only 2. Against mobs with -RES debuffs, that could be deadly. You don't really need to cap Resistance at low levels, since mobs don't hit too hard. That means 3 is a good number of Sonics to have for the entire 1-50 range. I don't know about the numbers for Force Field, but I would expect 3 would be appropriate. Using 4 of either would be overkill, and we have a limited number of slots.

Protection from status effects is important too. Force Field Defenders get Dispersion Bubble at level 12 which provides protection from Hold, Immob, and Disorient. Sonic Debuff Defenders get a sonic equivalent. Stacked 6 times, taking into account the 5% chance to be hit, you don't have to worry about those status effects. If you're worried about Knockback, take Acrobatics.

That's the tanking part, now for the Mage part. How can a bunch of Defenders do a lot of damage? Well, Sonics get a debuff that can lower mob Resistance. Stack that a few times, and the mobs are gonna be taking a LOT more damage than usual. Anyone know the resistance debuff cap? Defenders get a decent DMG bonus fron Leadership : Assault, and you can stack that 8 times if everyone takes it. If you have Assault, you might as well take Tactics, to give everyone a huge To Hit bonus (huge when stacked 8 times). (No need for Maneuvers, it's useless compared to Force Fields.) Attacks can be slotted for damage only. If I've done my math right, you can slot attacks with 5 green Damage SOs and be at the damage cap. No need to take Aim, it's a wasted power.

Also, no need for Defense, Damage, or Accuracy Inspirations either. I found with all-Rads in Buffer Overrun that Inspirations are almost forgotten.

It looks like we only need 6 Defenders to make us tanks. That leaves 2 more slots for other chars. Why 8 players? You get more bosses, more mobs, higher level mobs (for teams of 6+), and a high team size XP bonus (x2.3). That means more and better Enhancement drops, a higher Influence/XP ratio (so you can buy better Enhancements), and faster levels all around. SuperTeams are big teams.

To be a SuperTeam, the other 2 slots have to make a significant contribution to the team as a whole. Defenders again are the best choice. Granted Blasters could do higher damage, they don't help the team. And believe me, this team can put mobs down fast enough without Blaster damage. The last 2 slots are for Kinetics Defenders. They have a situational Heal, which is probably all we'll ever need (when someone forgets to refresh bubbles). They have Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift, both of which increase the damage capacity of the entire team while reducing the damage done by mobs. This means higher team damage at low levels, and the ability to respec slots out of attacks at higher levels, ideally to improve team oriented powers. They have Increase Density to protect against Knockback, the only thing Dispersion Bubble doesn't cover. It also acts as Clear Mind in case someone is mezzed. They have Speed Boost and Inertial Reduction to give the team faster movement. Speed Boost and Transference help with Endurance, and Speed Boost also provides a Recharge Reduction bonus on everything. Kinetics Defenders fill the holes in the team nicely, and reduce downtime.

We should also discuss Secondary power sets. Remember the SuperTeam concept; you want power sets that work well in the team. AoE is VERY GOOD, as you'll always be facing large groups of mobs. When I refer to AoE below, I'm referring to the fast recharge AoEs, not the BIG NUKES at the end of each secondary.

Electric is OK alone, but should work well if several people take it. Given the Leadership bonuses, you can slot up the key powers for heavy Endurance Drain. Stacked from multiple people, it might be effective at stoping mobs from doing much. While we're not too worried about mobs attacking, it's still a good idea. It has 2 AoEs (one is PBAoE) that come at very low level and a virtual pet.

Energy is not good for this group. It has 2 AoEs, but one comes at 35. It does knockback, which isn't all that necessary. There are better choices.

Dark is a serious contender. It has 3 cones (one Immob, one Knockback), plus an AoE disorient, and decent single target damage. It gives mobs a -ACC debuff, good for AVs or buffed mobs that might otherwise hit through the Force Fields. It even has a heal at level 35. What's not to like?

Psychic is probably another one to skip. It has 2 AoEs and various status effects, but it falls far short of Dark.

Radiation is fairly good. It has 3 AoEs (1 PBAoE), 2 of which come early, but 1 comes at 35. Single target damage is fast but lower than dark. The attacks give a -DEF debuff, which can help at low levels.

I don't know enough about the new Archery set to make an informed decision. Compared to Dark, can anyone tell me how it rates?

Sonic Attacks are probably not necessary unless they have nice AoEs. Their secondary effect of -RES debuff is already handled by the Sonic Debuff Primary.

I think the following is the best mix or primaries and secondaries.

3 Sonic/Dark Defenders
3 FF/Elec Defenders
2 Kinetics/Dark Defenders

Why those? Let me explain. But first you have to remember, these are Tank Mages. They are not afraid to get into melee combat. They have the equivalent of Update 4 Invuln Scrapper Ressitance with Invincibility for Defense.

Step 1: Everyone jumps RIGHT INTO THE MIDDLE of the mobs!
Step 2: Sonics use -RES debuffs
Kins hit Siphon Power (bosses) or Fulcrum Shift at level 32
FFs hit Short Circuit (near bosses)
Step 3: Kins hit Transfusion (bosses) if anyone needs healing
Everyone backs up a bit, with the Darks using cone immobs
Step 4: AoE or single target attack till everything drops
Step 5: Refresh bubbles or other buffs if necessary

There are a couple other aspects of a SuperTeam. For Movement, it would be nice if 2 or more people took Teleport with Recall Friend. They can move the entire team around quickly and easily, and it's great for moving SKs before they get their movement power.

It would be nice if 2 or more people took Concealment: Grant Invisibility. This will give the entire team full invisibility.

It would be nice if 2 or more people took the Medicine pool. An out of combat heal will often be handy, Stimulant may be necessary against particularly mez heavy mobs, and you never know when you'll need a Resuscitate.

Everyone should take Leadership, most people will take Fitness, and most people will take a conventional movement power (Flying, Super Leaping, or Super Speed). Note that the Kins can give Inertial Reduction, and we'll have TPers, so Hasten plus Super Speed works just fine for movement.

That leaves one extra power pool from the above set. If the Kins skip a movement power (because they can), they can pick 2 of the above. Between 8 of us, we should be able to cover all of the pools with lots of overlap.

By the way, this isn't all carved in stone. Only the primaries are carved in stone. Secondaries and pools are not. If you really want Archery, go ahead. If you really don't want Leadership, then skip it. But remember, every team oriented power you take helps the entire team.

One last thing... Pick you enemies! This team is very weak against Psychic enemies. We avoid them! The best targets are those who are weak to negative energy. We fight them a lot! Simple.

This is my plan. Does anyone have any constructive criticism? Is there anything I missed? Anything you would do differently? If so, please post here, and explain why it would be better?

Finally, I'd like to try this out on test. I'm probably going to be on the Test Server tonight (Friday, July 22) around 9:45 PM EST in Atlas Park looking for people to try this. My global chat handle is @TopDoc on live and test.

If you want in, feel free to post here to reserve a spot. But make sure you're on by 10:15 PM EST tonight. Otherwise, it's first come, first served. I'm only available in the evenings, though sometimes I get a little spare time on the weekends. I usually play from 8:00 PM EST till 11:00 or midnight or so.

If this works out very well, I'll likely want to continue it once Update 5 goes live. Those interested can post here or otherwise let me know. We'll pick a server.

Let me start by reserving a character. I'll be a FF/Elec Defender. For pool powers, I'll take Leadership, Fitness, Speed, and Teleport. I like Teleport, and I used it in all-Rad teams to move people around fast.

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i'm game, any server but virtue, on test i made a sonic and it jsut gave me a great concept, as a rper i cant let a concept die so id love to join tank mages as a sonic/(probably sonic, maybe arrow, maybe elec, not sure yet)

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In-Ze, one E, just looked it up. Alura In-Ze and Zor El are her parents.

Sonic/Sonic defs look really really good for party players, but look awful to solo with. TopDoc is creating a new SG called TankMages to exploit a party filled with sonics and forcefields to basically render tanks useless. Otherwise, Sonic/Sonic would be perfect for helping tanks like ours be as they once were. Shame Sonic/Sonic cannot buff self.

More on TopDoc's idea
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...part=1#3331628

His Buffer Overrun idea is pure gold (all rad SG).

Hopefully Issue 3 will be in today. Got the first volume's 12 and the first two of this volume, and I want my fix.

Be sure to pick up either Superman/Batman #19 or its reprint as Supergirl #0 this next month. Supergirl's own title starts in August and the issue I just mentioned captures the feel of the "Girls' Night Out" episode while staying true to current DC continuity (which means nothing if you are Karen Starr, aka Powergirl, aka Kara Zor-El).

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As much as i dont want to support the Mega nerf when i was testing sonic it gave me a killer RP idea and since virtue is maxed ill probably make my sonic "Wisper" on a nother server PM me i f you want to hear the char concept, id love to join a sg with Wisper

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Well aparently the devs have stoped listening or had a collectivl anurism, i mean, really, only xp if you do dmg, are they bloody daft? I thought they like defenders, then whey are they premelizing any AT that puts team suppor over direct dmg?

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Yep, I agree. I don't see how this can be considered unfair, especially with the "anywhere on mission map" caveat. Then again, I don't powerlevel.

*Sigh*

It's not the Devs that had the "anurism".

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Statesman: If a player is in a zone, did NO damage in a combat and has [been] dead for more than a minute, he receives no XP. If a player is more than 300 ft. away (an increase of 100 ft.) from the mob when it’s defeated and did NO damage, he receives no XP. Otherwise, the player receives his full share of XP.

If players are on a mission map, they always receive their full shares. There’s no distance limitation. Teams can split up in maps – players can be separated by elevators – everyone receives their XP.

This system does not affect Mission rewards.

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How can you say a support AT is being "penalized" for not doing damage? You ain't supporting you team much if you are back 300 feet munching on Cheetos.

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ready the very first page of this topic

Controler helps damg dealer fight mob
face plants
gets no xp because he /held/ the mob instead of attacking it

very first page

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Can you show an example of where player feedback has changed the devs minds? I can't think of any. Datamining has changed their minds for sure ( and possbily datamining AND feedback). For me the tell is exactly what Cuppa said "The Devs are happy with the changes".

Apparently at Cryptic, the theory is the customer must have ordered the wrong thing- they KNOW what you want, regardless of what you want.

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Tanker complaints about the Pool Power Provoke, for one. Scrapper complaints about not having a use in groups, for another. (Which got criticals added). Changes to Martial Arts animation times. Dark Armor and Stone Armor now stacking, as well as the new look to Stone Armor. There was an issue on the Test Server where the Dev's had added Knockback to one of the Tanker Powers (A super strength power, I believe) and the Tankers had quite a few negative things to say to it, which led to the new Knockdown/Knockback system being added instead.

Those are just off the top of my head.

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Well aparently the devs have stoped listening or had a collectivl anurism, i mean, really, only xp if you do dmg, are they bloody daft? I thought they like defenders, then whey are they premelizing any AT that puts team suppor over direct dmg?

another tip for spoting lagits

"chances are if you see a Keldian hosting, even a lvl 6 they got the money" i mena you gotta hit 50 to make a keld....

and no that note once in AP i posted with my PB the "1 influecne CC" and got a suprising line even thoughthe prise was /1/ infulence....

i think people has fun

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This may have already been brought up, but I dont have time to read 70 pages.
Why not just impose the XP leash on team members 3 lvls lower or more?
That way a true balanced team doesnt have to worry about losing xp when split up. And it also hurts the PLers, so everyone wins.

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No it punishes the sidekicks

"Holy Freholies Dark Knight just because your a lvl 50 and im only level 20 im not learning anything from fighting these carnies"
"It is the will of Statesman"