Cuffzter

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Scranker = a player who should have picked a scrapper but for some reason chose the Tanker AT because he wasnt satisfied with the melee powerset options of the scrapper. As playstyle goes, he can be seen very much taking the role of a scrapper, dealing damage and helping taking out enemies. Some sets can rival scrappers in terms of damage, and as they are slightly tougher than the average scrapper, they need less support in terms of healing and defensive buffing.
In that respect, a "Scranker" can be as useful as any other AT in a team.

But just like the scrapper, they dont deal with aggro management. Any aggro they remove from the rest of the team are purely incidental.

The depreciative view of the Scranker as such derives from the expections of other players regarding the tankers sole role as aggro management.
They see the steel shield of a tanker in the teamwindow and stop worrying about aggro, after all, that IS what the Tanker excels at, right?

While it's not wrong to expect this, it is related to seeing the blue shield of a Defender and expect healing.


So when the Tanker starts manage aggro that is when he becomes a Tanker, when he starts deliberately try to manage aggro away from the rest of the team, that is when he's started tanking.
And this may come as a shock to some, but being able to still deal damage does not make him a less tanker. In a way, any damage dealt is a form of aggro mitigation as it removes enemies faster from the combat, the quicker the combat ends, less damage is dealt to the team.

A Meatshield tanker manages and survives more aggro than the more balanced one, but a balanced one is more versatile and can adapt easier to the situation.

The other day on a TF a cyst spawned, and strangely enough in a location we'd already passed. Rest of the team was engaged in a group of freakz, so it was only me and a controller hanging back. The 'troller did something to spawn a lot of unbound (not sure, could have been any of the kinetic drains) so i popped 3 good lucks, and charged.

If I spawned it, its only fair for me to take care of it.

Later on a mission afterwards, it was ME chasing a Void slayer around, not the other way around.

I dont see my binds for "Void spotted" as "please take care of it for me" but rather "please stay out of my way..."

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The other thing is that the Cyst itself blows up when you kill it, with enough force (Fire + Smashing damage) to kill anything short of a Tank or a Dull Pained Scrapper.

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You don't need Dull Pain. My /dark scrapper can take the explosion from a Cyst. I generally use dark regen just before it goes to ensure I'm at full health, and I've seen other scrappers take the blast. Blasters and defenders nearby, on the other hand, fall like flies.

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Well Dark Scrappers have near 40% res to neg energy whilst dullpained regens might need 40% more health. All of this is saying stuff without much reference to level and luck. Has anyone truly worked out the damage of these things? All I know is in seeing for example Crey and a Cyst with Nictuses you can pull the Crey leaving the Nictus to do seperately or you can have a Tank head on in if numbers are low enough. What people don't do is allow enough time for the Tank to select and gain the right aggro for others to survive or stay in the most obvious place for survivability...away from the cyst.

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If you bothered to read what was written, rather than just trying to write all the time, its fire/smashing damage that come from the explosion.

I think most people know who play the game well and pay attention know this though.

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Kheldians have been of the least interest to me I have said many times before. As to what I do all the time you wouldn't know. I made no reference to the explosion btw I pretty much only read what Spidermonster said without reading what he was quoting and remembered the last time I came across these things the surrounding nictus + groups were enough. Nictus damage is negative and it effectively stacks with any type of damage to drop anyone which doesn't help. It helps to have enough of a healthbar left before the explosion.

I always word things in ways that people may decide to add or take things away and if they tarnish me with anything they tarnish me with their own expectations and from that I can see if they are have a positive or negative character. Negative can mean bitter. My way of getting to know people.

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Ignore him, he's a troll.

As much as I'd like to agree with you, a tauntless tank with no aura would be pretty rubbish at holding that aggro, and ive got the scars to prove it from some pick up groups..
(still, i made more xp than debt, and i got it faster than soloing, just irks me that i had to adapt my playstyle so much that I as a defender only could use single target attacks and not one of my primaries)
:/

I would like to emphasize that my previous post was not about the value of the various kinds of tankers and their worth, but rather how we choose to label and classify them.

Imagine the kind of flak I'd get if I went over to the defenders forum, posting a build of a Empath with all the primaries, only one blast, and the rest of the build Travel powers, + recall for corpse retrival, Medicine pool for a extra rez, stealth for less aggro and so on.

If I then suggested that the proposed build was the only way to build a proper defender and all other were "lesser"...
I'd get torn limb from limb...

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Personally, I think hybrids are fine. I think trying to fit a square peg in a round hole (e.,g. A pure Skranker) is unsatisfactory.

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Im a T A N K, not a "Hybrid", not a scranker, not a "semi-tank", not a cross-breed, not a "B*stard tank" (im certain that particular word wouldnt get across the filter, but its totally valid in the context and applicable)

There are Defensive tanks, which are the ones unable to solo.
There are Offensive tanks, which are the ones unable to team (well, at least in the role as Aggromanagment) and are the ones who usually get labeled "Scrankers" which is used in a derogatory manner.
And then there are Balanced tanks, which is the category I like to put myself in.

It dont matter if you try to gloss over with that in your mind, "hybrids are fine" and that you dont have anything agaisnt them and that they fill a certain role. You have already made your opinion clear when you choose to use a word like "hybrid", we are still not good enough for you to warrant the title "Tank".

My build has 6 attacks + (3-slotted) taunt, and Hasten to speed up those attacks.

I have Invincibility slotted with taunt, I can hold aggro, and I can hold it pretty well.

I can solo elite bosses between two yawns.
I can also tank AVs without people getting killed, just as well as any "team build tank"

For a task force or certain events I'd choose a aggroholding "scranker" over a "pure breed" anyday.

And this is why: when I did the Statesmans task force it was me and a Granite tank as tankers.
But as we only had Lord Recluse left we aggroed the Flier, so while the Granite tanked Recluse I flew up and taunted it away from the team so they could hit at Recluse in peace.
But, despite all their damage, debuffs and Buffs they couldnt get Recluse past a certain point, his health started to hover around a certain amount and it seemed to take ages.

Luckily, the flier must have despawned because suddenly I was free to go down and help the rest put him down, and I like to think it was my added damage that turned the tides.

Now, had I been a "pure breed tanker"....
I think you can draw your own conclusions.


Now "pure breeds" are great if youre going inside a door mission, and run off and hard 17 freakshow to a chokepoint for the rest of the team to blast away at.

But please..
"pure breeds" at the Eden trial.. or a Rikti mothership raid? or Hami!?

Ok, maybe Hami's a bit of a low blow, I have the fullest confidence that a pure breed would be able to tank hami... but so would a scranker with only Unyielding and Taunt..

So, in answer to your question, don't see all the "scrankers" as a sign of more soloing tankers, but rather of tankers starting to realize that the "middle ground" as Cognito mentioned are better as theyre now free to do more content with the tank instead of just the same thing all the time.

You can make tankers that tanks great and still are able to solo without them being scrankers....

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DOOOMM!! thinking

Or, WP has the new specs of the taunt-aura's, as they make it way to easy for agro-management. So tankers need to actively use taunt and attacks to keep agro

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I bloody hope not..

wouldnt surprise me if they missed a "." somewhere, making the duration of 12 seconds to be 1.2 seconds...

Youre not imagining things, theres threads on US forums about the same thing.

apperantly Castle found "something" in the INV taunt aura that it shared with WP aura, but from the post it might as well been something wrong with the scrapper version of it that let it steal aggro from tanker version.

And that is not the case. Theres something wrong with Tanker version of RttC, I dont know what, but I want it fixed..

Sorry MaX, but this has happened even against scrappers NOT running their taunt aura in my case.

ive got a WP to 22 and yes, its definitely not up to the standards im used too :/

ATs dont suck, only players..

As can be seen in at the end of this post, I have quite some experience with PBs.

It is absolutely correct as some people say that PBs are the easier one of the two to get into. Straight out of the box it can be played as a nrg/brg blaster which has sacrificed some offence for more defence (like shields)

If you start the character with the mindset of a "blaster with a little more defence and little less damage" you can't go wrong and hardly disappointed.

Then as you progress you will notice more cool stuff you will be able to do. Like tank a bit if it starts going bad for instance.

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The other reason inv is hard to tank with at the early stages is that it dont get its taunt aura until 18. Making it hard to tank appropriately in the first levels.


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Taunt aura at 18??? wot do you mean by that? i got "taunt" at lvl 10 and there are no taunt auras in the INV set (as far as i know)

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No, it doesnt say so in the power description, but Invincibility, apart from adding tohitbuffs and adding defence in proportion to number of enemies surrounding you, also pulses a Taunt aura lasting almost 12 seconds unslotted.
The +def and +toHit is nice, without a doubt, but its for the Taunt that every inv gets (or ought to get it) as early as possible.

Invulnerability is also a tank defence that takes a while before gets powerful.
Basically, the only powers you should need at your level is temp invulnerability, Dull pain and Unyielding, the rest of the defences available at your level dont really make that much of a difference.

The other reason inv is hard to tank with at the early stages is that it dont get its taunt aura until 18. Making it hard to tank appropriately in the first levels.

Because you are nothing like squishy. You have more health than any other AT, you have resistances that removes some of the damage and you have wonderful mez resistance.

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2: target the big guys.
3/5s of the other ATs dont have very good status protection, and thus can get troubles with Bosses. You should focus on these first


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I'd actually say, where possible keep the bosses targeted on you but you target the minions first. Same goes if solo. Where possible take out the minions quickly then focus on the Boss. Bosses can be a grind if you have limited DPS and while you concentrate on them the minions and LTs are getting too many free shots on you.

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Well, if your invulnerable those Lts and minions give you defence against the Boss,
With the other tank defences you might of course want to finish of the small guys first for the reason you mentioned, and if you have a good aura and can Taunt the Bosses, by all means, do so.
But if you are unsure about the effectiveness about your aura, maybe skipped taunt or hasn't got it yet, your best way to make sure the bosses are focused on you are by Gauntlet.
My original post was supposed to be a "quickstart" guide for new tanks. So lets leave out the advanced tactics for now, telling a tank he should go after minions and Lts first will just turn them into scrankers.

If you were to give 5 piece of advice to a new tanker, the things that you think are absolutely essential for successful (and fun) tanking, what would those be?
Remember, this is supposed to be basic advice, not "how to herd" or "take taunt"

1: You lead the way.
even if youre not the leader of the team, when it comes to initiating fights against a spawn of enemies, you are the one who should go in first in almost every case.
2: target the big guys.
3/5s of the other ATs dont have very good status protection, and thus can get troubles with Bosses. You should focus on these first
3: make sure youre supported.
when all is going well, its possible that you run ahead and takes on more enemies than you can handle, take a glance over your shoulder now and then to check to see if the team following you.
4: run all defences
Its your attacks that drains endurance, not your defences (well, most of it anyway) so use them all and as often as possible. Its better to run out of the blue bar than the green.
5: be flexible
dont rely on a single tactic, but try to learn how to deal with enemies in different ways, and find out what tactic is best against a given foe or with a specific team set-up.

I soloed mostly on my inv/em.. so I could get the badges I wanted and do (most) of the arcs, so its perfectly doable.
It's not so bad as many make it out to be.
You have to add more offensive abilities from the pools as just barrage and bone smasher wont be enough, though energy punch can be useful until you get more attacks and can respec it put. Hasten and Air superiority from the power pools will add a bit off offensiveness as well as be the first stepping stone to a travel power.

Unless youre really fond of teleportation or Superjump..
But none of them is really helpful for a solo inv tank.
Many tanks that pick SJ do it for the purpose of the extra defence but for soloing its unnecessary unless you want to max out your defensive potential for 8 man teams on invincible rep.

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I actually learned most about tanking with my PB, probably because Dwarf is a tank taken right back to basics! I now apply these tactics to my actual (all be it low level) tank


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Interesting that, because i had a similar experience. It wasnt until i got dwarf on my PB that i realised how much more active i had to work to get aggro as a dwarf than as my tank and i realised what tanking was.
Before that I had just ran in and start hitting, and let the aggro come naturally..

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a blaster never died against a even minion, why in a team he suddenly would?

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Not wanting to correct you or anything, but if the team is doing invincible missions, and the blaster is 2 levels lower than the Mission owner that minion could be 4-5 levels over him and without a chance for Sidekicks.
So, theoretically, the blaster could have a bit of problem against the minion alone. And the situation i just described are of a quite common occurence.

With every toon i make i usually end up quite balanced between primaries and secondaries, the only times i have left that policy is with Masterminds (the primaries are so guuuud i just want them all..) and my nrg/nrg blaster where i have few of my secondaries and stay ranged at all times. For a blaster, i rarely faceplant.

So for me its natural that a tanker as well should have a relative balanced picks of prime and seconds.

And I cant for the life of me see the fact that if whirling hands hits a great number of enemies some of them will become stunned and stagger around and away from the taunt aura that this is a "bad" thing..

For me this isnt a issue.. because either all those mobs that presumably stagger off are destroyed within 5 seconds by any teammates i have, and if the team cant perform to those expectations, those mobs will come running back since theyre still under the influence by my invincibility aura slotted for duration...

if i read Mids hero designer correctly.. if i were to triple slot whirling hands for duration, the taunt from invincibility are still longer unslotted..

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first of all, i disagree with this: [ QUOTE ]
So in the end it's all up to playstyle I think. If you prefer to play more as a Scranker, then I'd take it, but if you prefer being the Meatshield then I'd skip it.

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rather i think the opposite, a scranker wont be surrounded by those big group of mobs that makes this a useful power. While a tanker who gather a big group of enemies tight to him will.

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My Scranker is always surounded by a big group of mobs. Remember, it's still a Tank and not a Scrapper, so I'm still in the thick of it. I just choose to sacrifice some survivability(and perhaps some aggro ability)in favour of more damage. Doesn't mean I don't try to aggro and try to take most of the incoming damage, I'm just not as good at it, compared to a more defensively specialized build. It's kind of a trade off. For example, my Ice tank doesn't have any AoE damage attacks, as he's purely built for survivability and aggro ability.

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don't sound like a scranker to me..

tanking/scranking isnt what set or powers you have of your primaries or secondaries, but in my mind a playstyle and what purpose your filling in a team.

for some reason there are those who only will accept "true tankers" as those tanks who are built so defensively that they are incapable of soloing and that any tank who has got enough offense to solo must be a scranker..

I call those tanks "tauntbots" or "leechers"..

I wonder what the defender community would say if someone said that any defender that can solo reasonable well is a Offender..

Are the only ATs who are "allowed" to solo without getting called names Scrappers or high level fire/kin trollers?


I solo quite a deal, so any AT i pick gets a build that seems to gravitate towards the ability to at solo Elite bosses by the late 30s..
Noone of them are useless in teams, or are unable to live up to their function..

first of all, i disagree with this: [ QUOTE ]
So in the end it's all up to playstyle I think. If you prefer to play more as a Scranker, then I'd take it, but if you prefer being the Meatshield then I'd skip it.

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rather i think the opposite, a scranker wont be surrounded by those big group of mobs that makes this a useful power. While a tanker who gather a big group of enemies tight to him will.

The sound of WRRRAAPPAPAPAPAPAAP as it hits 5.6.7.8 enemies or more thats surrounded you after youve first jumped inside that big group, hit the Boss in the middle to get the others attention with your invincibility aura and then let loose with whirly hands is a beautiful sound.

Apart from the benefits listed by Shannon, there always a use for a PBAoE when you have that mob you cant target because its stuck in a wall or that Arachnos who smoke grenaded you.

I'm intrigued by your ideas and want to sign up to your mailing list.



aaaah, who am I kidding, I'm already a member :P

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Grats.

But 18 month what have you been doing?

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well, the first 16 months playing on a computer that couldnt quite cope with CoV