Cognito

My thoughts on playing a rad - defender:

Lvls 1-10: Who cares? spam of your AoE heal now and again, everyone happy.

Lvls 11-20 Absolute agony. Full of unskilled /new players, bad groups. No one understands anchors, players screaming "HEAL", silly people hypnotised by big green numbers produced by empaths.

Lvls 21-30 Getting better, more people have experience / wisdom. Some will understand anchors, and many others will listen when you explain. The game is starting to get sufficiently challenging that people are not prepared to swing through with bad tactics, and the increasingly rare bad player will get kicked. However, all your debuffs will be in place with SO pretty soon.

Lvl 31-40. Probably your heyday. Experienced teams, will be good at clustering. Teams do not want heals as much by this point, they want to not need healing in the first place. Nearly everyone knows what an anchor is.

Lvl 40+ slight dip. Mez attacks very common and Rad's weakness is not protecting vs Mez. Clustering not so easy with mobile scattered groups. However, everyone by this point is skilled and knows about anchors. You are certainly no worse of than any other defender.

Stick with it, you are in the "torture" period of 11-20. Around 25-35 you will probably be having a ball and people who know you will much prefer you to silly empaths. My advise is:

Make freinds with a couple of tanks, who understand debuffs/anchors. They will feel fair safer basking in green light with all enemies aorund them than with an empath behind them (I know I do when i tanked to lvl 30).

Set up binds/macros saying "Anchor is $target! please leave till last!".

Don be shy explaining anchors to people. I even have 5 macros set up explaining anchors in 5 chapters.

If all else fails, show them what debuffery can do - try without debuffing, and watch the team face plant.

In extremis, I have actually tanked. Put on choking cloud, debuffed everything and sat in the middle of 8-10 mobs in relative safety. Pick your time for this carefully, but nothing sold me more than reading a newspaper whilst 6 minions +1 flailed useless at me / choked on the cloud and I explained to the befuuddled 4 other team members that I had NO DEFENCE POWERS.

As I final resort, leave team.

Stick with it, dark/rad debuffery (or even TA) is extremely potent in a GOOD team, and will appear gimped in a bad team (I could say the reverse for empathy, but thats another story! )

All defenders (in fact all toons, except maybe rad/energy defenders *shudder*) rock... its whether empaths rock more than other empaths...

I dont think they do at all

Defenders are always welcome, empath or not.

Whats this against defenders blasting tho? If I have spare end, the tank is grabbing aggro (so I'm not going to go down in a blaze of fire), and my debuff toggles are up, what is stopping me firing off a few shots? It may be only 66% of blaster damage, but better than than nothing surely?

I cant see a problem with defenders attacking under certain circumstances. Perhpas empaths need to be more alert, but playing my rad, if the debuff toggles are up, its blast / hold / sap time (if end >50% and im not gonna get aggro).

Id agree that in bad teams empaths outshine nearly anything. I just dont want to play in bad teams tho...

Just from first prinicples, empaths are worse in big teams... if you go for the principle that AoE > Single target in big teams, (and of course single target > AoE in small teams), Empath has the most single target effects of any defender group - IIRC only one AoE in the whole set. Compare that to radation, with only two single target effects (Mutate and fallout)... With this principle, in a good team, of larger size, empaths will always be less valuable.

Amen to that.

At around lvl 35+, I only really want an empath for clear mind to be honest. Id rather have any other defender in team. At this point, if a team need a lot of healing, it simply isnt a good team. Again, all IMHO.

Not sure about that... Empaths make you die less often... maybe, but any less often than force fielders, sonic defenders, or anyone else?

Make enemies die faster? maybe... they have a few buffs, but kinetics would completely outshine them for damage buffs, and rad/dark would certainly make the enemies die faster than empaths...

So I would have to disagree if you meant empaths do all of the above better than other defenders, IMO... at low levels empaths really do shine, maybe because heals are more needed, maybe because teams are less skilled. You will have no argument from me that empaths are the most valuable defender ever on bad teams

Ah... pardon me... not living up to my name

I will stick to discourses on the role of the pre-frontal cortex in metaphysical awareness.... or something...

Spad, enlighten me (i bow to your superior maths), how is +2 or better mobs gonna make things worse?

I thought the whole idea of scaling defence was to make things BETTER for defence when facing higher level mobs???

mmmmm Leadership pool on defenders

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Stacked leadership pool

Just look at MM heavy teams in CoV where they all take leadership pools (and this is less effective than defenders IIRC)... ripping through mobs....

Hmmm worst would be:

Tank: Stone / Warmace
Scrapper: Martial Arts (no AoE) / whatever
Blaster: Archery / Devices
Controller: whatever / empathy
Defender: rad / energy (debuff + knockback... hmmmm)

This is post issue 7 mind, im factoring in the predicted love to trick arrow and claws

Well, Psi as in Mind control then, for the sake of accuracy, but I hope most people would understand / read between the lines... same goes for dark not being a controller secondary...

Sorry for the lack of accuracy and any offence it caused

With regards to tanks: Why is everyone saying stone tanks? THey tend to be left to last and only attacked courtesy of taunt. No tank is going to fall fast. Ice tanks have better mez protection, a debuff that will effect everyone around (not just the ice tank) and wont be crippled by slow movement and reduced damage like stone / granites. Just my 2 influence, but I dont rate stone tanks in PvP, with the exception of the much liked psi resistance

Hmmm:

Controller: Psi / *
Defender: */Psi
Blaster: Ice / Energy
Scrapper: Spines or Dark / SR
Tank: Ice / Energy

* Rad, Dark, or Kinetics

However, It all depends on what team you are facing. Mentally I divide things up into tight and loose formations: For instance, if you are playing a tight formation and so is the enemy, you definately want stacked rad/dark debuffs. If the enemy responds or plays by spreading out to avoid stacked debuffs, then you want ways of keeping them tight, like ice slicks, stacked chilling embraces, etc.

So the ideal pentad team really depends on who you are facing I guess.

Although I would add that everyone should take as many leadership pools as possible to stack them

Ice tanks + Rad defenders are an unbeilavable combination.

Pack them incredibly densely, and the Ice tank debuffs aswell.

My ideal team: 2 ice tanks, 3 rad defenders, 3 fire blasters

Ice in - cluster, debuff
Rad on - everything floored out to minumum def/res/acc/dam
Fireblasters AoE

Wash, rinse, repeat...

Just a question... You say that your tank feels safe with an empath behind him. My tank does too...

But have you actually compared that with other defenders "behind" you. The glutton of empaths around means you may not have.

Have you tanked with a clustered set of enemies debuffed by dark / radation. That made me feel much safer than any empath to be honest, because they just flailed uselessly at me. So please give your opinion about RELATIVE safety of defenders behind you

I would agree that defenders are great AT. Its just that empaths have more single target heals/ buffs than other defenders, so their relative effectiveness compares to other defender AT naturally decreases as group size increases. I cant see how anyone can argue against this (Its the same as spine scrappers being more effective in large teams than martial artists - because of AoE attacks).

To be honest, At lvl 39, I only want empaths for clear mind. Id just as soon have a sonic defender casting clarity, buffing the tanks RES to maxout, and debuffing the enemies resistance so they die faster. Id actually prefer a sonic defender to be honest. But then, I usually prefer a defender to any other AT

Any other experiences about? About how RELATIVELY safe do you feel with different defender primaries. Rad is my vote from when I tanked. Inspired me to roll a rad toon, and my tank freinds feel safer in the Rad provided they can cluster the enemies (which they normally can).

I wouldnt bother with either to be honest, given that you will have to draw / redraw your battle axe...

Options might be:

Go the haste / superspeed route

Combat Jumping to eke out a bit more defence and to add range to your attacks (wont realy need the status protection as an ice tank)

Hover a bit pointless it must be said! (I guess ekes out a tiny bit more defence but pretty pointless)

Teleport other / Teleport for always fun for any character.


My ice/ice went CJ/superjump for concept reasons. I like to squeeze out all the defence i can i suppose.

Just bear in mind air superiority and combat jump will mean a lot of battle axe draw/withdrawing

Id agree with spad on that one.

Ice patch is SO good you may wish to get before stamina.

You might wish to get taunt earlier too... lates 20's is pushing it a bit for proper tank duties.

Id do punch rather than kick... both are pretty weak, but its better to get the occassional disorientate than the occasional knockback (tanks dont want knockback)

If you are going for pure tank (and with ice secondary you probably are), freezing touch gives more controllery options than ice sword (of lesser or greater variety)

I agree. A generic build might go something like:

1: Frozen Armour + Secondary Attack
2: Hoarfrost
4: Chilling Embrace
6: Wet Ice
8: etc.

(Make sure to get fitness pool though, very needed for all those toggles).

THe taunt question is a whole other debate. Many tanks leaving it to mid 20's which is just about as long as you can hold it off and still be a tank.

One of the most important decisions is always scrank vs. tank. Ie how much do you want to fight / cause damage. If the answer is little/you want to team more, id get taunt early.

Just a personal observation that there are so few good tanks out there at the moment (most are scrankers) that as a good aggro sucking ice TANK (not scrank) you will end up on many peoples freinds lists.

I agree. A generic build might go something like:

1: Frozen Armour + Secondary Attack
2: Hoarfrost
4: Chilling Embrace
6: Wet Ice
8: etc.

(Make sure to get fitness pool though, very needed for all those toggles).

THe taunt question is a whole other debate. Many tanks leaving it to mid 20's which is just about as long as you can hold it off and still be a tank.

One of the most important decisions is always scrank vs. tank. Ie how much do you want to fight / cause damage. If the answer is little/you want to team more, id get taunt early.

Just a personal observation that there are so few good tanks out there at the moment (most are scrankers) that as a good aggro sucking ice TANK (not scrank) you will end up on many peoples freinds lists.

Get chilling embrace before wet ice - id swap 'em

Status effects are rather rare before teens (and you have some innate tanker res anyway), so wet ice dosent add a whole lot until level 12

On the other hand, chilling embrace is your single best aggro grabber and protection and you should get asap. No tank can compete with ice tanks for sucking aggro like nothing else, and its down to CE. Combine that with slow and -damage, it is your get asap, slot asap power.

When to get taunt is a whole lecture in itself. IMO ice tanks can get away with leaving it a bit later due to CE excellence in aggro management, but you will be needing it by around early 20's. IMHO a tank without taunt isnt worth a whole hill of beans, and to be blunt wouldnt be welcome on my team. Again, I might make an exception for a skilled ice tank due to CE.

Ive never met a Granite Tank, even with presence pool, I felt ENTIRELY comofortable with, although I reckon it could be done on a skilled team.

Wait until you play ice tanks, you will see there really is no comparison for aggro magnetism. However, you will die fare more easily .

Well my highest lvl toons are an ice/ice tank and a rad/elec Def

I retired my tank in issue 6, played my defender up to lvl 38 atm.

NOw i can assure you two things

a) My tank felt a whole lot safer basking in radation than with an empath

b) My radation defender worships tanks (particularly ice tanks)... cluster, debuff, kill. I rarely need to heal, empaths feel useless. Now this is a tight team, but it wouldny work without a solid tank who knows how to cluster.

...what i am trying to say is tanks have a very important role in clustering mobs when u play with debuffers or AoE blasters. You CAN do it without a tank, but its that much harder. So I have completely revised my opinion from playing my tank (tanks are useless) to tanks are extremely helpful... not for only managing aggro (although that is very helpful) but for manuevering enemies.

Two thoughts:

a) The main function is to take precicely enough %age aggro for the team. Enough that you and team will live. This %age alters according to team (scrappers? skwishies? other tanks), and the support you get from defenders / trollers.

b) Ini certain situations, such as rad/dark debuffs, or with lots of AoE, it becomes more impertitive to cluster the targets tightly together.

So tank tactics need to be flexible IMO.

My impression of empaths at higher levels is this: rather pointless UNTIL the plan goes awry, in which case yummy!

I regular team my rad defender with a couple of skilled tanks - cluster, debuff, slay, anchor left last, kill. I rarely need even my own rather limited heal. Empath would really add very little to the team NORMALLY.

But, every once in a while, the brown stuff hits the whirly thing. I get mezzed and toggles drop, team panics and splits, clustered enemies falls apart. Now, often we have enough slack in the system with panic powers (unyeliding, EMP, etc) and just guts, to pull it together again. But, these are the times an empath is nice on the team.

I kinda feel like empaths are "safety nets" or "plan B's". Most of the time not adding much, but when it goes a bit awry, thankyou very much folks!

And i would never kick ANY toon for having a certain power-set, such as AR. However, i would be a bit reluctant to invite an empath into a small tank/rad def (me)/damage toon for instance, as really wouldnt add much.

Ah... dont attack then

AT level 6? my experience has been ice tanks are the most surviavble at low levels. Scaling problems arent really a problem at this level, and the significant damage mitigation of chilling embrace (if you have it) really bumps up your protection. Of course, you will also be a complete aggro magnet compared to other tanks