Cognito

In that case, the unyeilding tank.

But would you rather have a tank with unyeilding and taunt, or just unyeilding.

The scenario is deliberately picked with deliberate options to force me to pick your choice! [img]/uk/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And invunerability is far from underpowered. Against Smash / Lethal damage it will outshine all the other sets at any level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, even against pure smashing/lethal, stone has invulnerability beat. Invulnerable tanks make good scrankers or secondary tank. Fire is a little on the fragile side for primary tanking imho; ice or stone ftw... providing they have taunt [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Stone is not better than Invun until it gets Granite, where it outpowers everything. But with a -need to hit- taunt aura, severely impaired mobility, and taunt recharging at 1/3 normal speed, I never feel as safe with a granite tank in the team as I do with an invun or ice- personally.

Until granite, Invun does actually outshine Stone (Invunerability gives extra defence for a start! - then there is unyeilding for extra resistance).

Sorry guys, I cant see a tank without an aura or taunt puling his weight - even a skilled /fire tank with a shed load of AoE. It aint gonna happen.

Not saying I wouldnt team with one, but heh we all know whos just ticking along until level 18 heh? [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

With regards to alpha - technically the whole team should have a co-ordinated approach to spread the alpha. This is actually far more efficient in terms of mopping up damage with heals (via AoE) than a scrapper dive. So no big shakes for the tank there (at least at the levels we are talking about).

And yep, Gauntlet will keep big bad boss of the group. But to be honest, so would a high damage scrapper. Admiteddly a skilled tanker with a few AoE attacks and rapid rotation can pull a bit MORE of his weight, but he's still swinging the lead as far as I can see.

Not a problem for me - Ill team with anybody (or nealy anybody). Jump kick on a defender? no probs, 3 travel pools? no probs?, Offenders with more attacks than buffs/debuffs? no probs?

Its just something about skrankers in particular that really winds me up somehow - still team with them - but it just really gets under my skin. I guess I have this suspicion that the psychology is "Hey, Ill play a tank, they look hard, they wont get debt"... i.e. "Me first, Team distant second".

I only say this cos that was my first thought when I read the handbook! [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Stone, Ice, and Fire all have an aura at low levels that, if anything, would "allow" them to be effective aggro grabbers without taunt.

Invunravility is therefore the one tanker primary that arguably MUST take taunt at level 10 unless it wants to be a dead weight to a team, acting as as underpowered scrapper. Thanks, but no thanks.

And invunerability is far from underpowered. Against Smash / Lethal damage it will outshine all the other sets at any level. Thats life; sets have weaknesses and strengths, but I dont see how you can argue that Invun tanks are somehow gimped at low levels. Against clockwork and outcasts... possibly... but put them against trolls for instance and they will leave the other sets standing.

I cant see how one can say that Invun is the one set that shouldnt take taunt. Its the one set that must. What can a level 1-17 tank without taunt add to a team other than taking the alpha strike and then acting as a half mast scrapper? why not just get a scrapper?

[ QUOTE ]
Doing the positron trial the other night we got 2 tanks, one with taunt, the other without. (at least at level 15 to which i was exemped down to) Both inv/nrg.
The tanker with taunt used his taunt as little as possible, because in his own words, using it killed him since he couldnt handle the aggro... or rather, his defences couldnt.

i'd say thats a tanker that tanks better without taunt.. because a dead tanker dont tank anything at all. a alive tanker at least keeps mobs busy.. even if its not as many as the tanker with taunt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tank with taunt: Has OPTION of using taunt to control amount of aggro.

Tank without taunt: Is out of options....


Im sorry, its technically impossible to be a better tank without taunt, providing you dont take it in lieu of a defence in which case it is arguable. But a tank with taunt and all his defence powers is always going to be a better tank than a tank with all his defence powers and no taunt. Its just not a debate it my book.

A tank without taunt may be a better SCRANKER, but not a better tank. Not even an equal tank.

And level 15 is not really representative of most of the game. The jounrney from level 22 to level 50 is probbaaly 95% of your game time and its when tanks get single origins and start to become super tough.

[ QUOTE ]
I have 2 tanks 1 with and 1 without taunt and i never used taunt that much. But then when im in a team I allways go straight 4 the bosses and lieutenants to take the heat off of the other team mates(have had no complantes yet)

Basically it all down to how you tank. Some tank beter with taunt some tank beter without.

[/ QUOTE ]

How on earth can you tank better WITHOUT taunt?

Thats like saying an empath heals better without heal other!

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion leadership is severely overrated, the only time when it shines if you have a BIG team and they all have leadership. I jsut throw it out of the window and make way for fitness.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to say this dosent make mathematical sense as far as i can see??? It only counts when everyone in a big team has it?

If 8 people have it on a big team, its 8 times as better as when one person has it... It doesnt become expedentially better technically, it just become expedentially more noticed psychologically...

Leadership is ok in small teams, good in big teams, and great in large teams, no matter how many people have got it.

It wont outshine secondary set buffs/debuffs - IF they are Area of Effect powers, but in large teams I would rather ONE person has assault or tactics running than ONE person has a single target hold (like in trick archery or dark secondary).

Personally, I always get it, and have never had any complaints.

Dont be fooled by invisible or subtle powers... they all add up. Even if everyone has 3 SO damage enhancers on EVERY ONE of their attacks, one person in an 8 man team giving everyone +8% (aprox) extra damage FOR EVERY SINGLE ATTACK is very useful, but psychologically unimpressive.

[ QUOTE ]
Well we did it, The Clockwork king is no more.

The Team was:
Me, Healing Chi
Amber Banshee
Masked Angel
Portent

Was a Great Succes and hopefully another one will be started soon [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

Well done guys! SHame FC wasnt there [img]/uk/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Anyway Im back in the saddle now, so hope to get some teaming done!

I think the TF are generally a great idea, but we need to think how to do them. The Clocky is a rather long tedious one in my opinion. It certainly helps if we have a "stealther" on the team - it cuts down mission time considerably! (especially if they have recall friend!)

Anyway, onwards!

And does anyone have any pics to post of that epic Babbage fight (one of the highlights of my CoX experience ever!)

Is it worth putting all the SG on same server into a coalition?

[ QUOTE ]
Who is currently running this SG? I mean... who's in charge of things?

I'm asking because apperantly some people (atleast one) has caught on my idea of listing RP SG's on the forum as a complement to our list of roleplayers. so I figured the leader of the SG should be the one posting our info on the list as he/she will probably be able to give the most accurate info.


Concearning game time I am free thursday as always and also saturday is available. My wife is going to the movies with her siblings and that means my kid can entertain himself infront of the wifes computer giving me time to entertain Myself infront of my computer. [img]/uk/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are running it Derek! [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I think the fact that negative energy is fairly poorly resisted by enemy must be considered a good thing, surely?

As for Shadow Maul being a cone. Fair point. Its a bit of a devil to get many enemies in the cone (can be done) tho. Id still avoid myself (for the specifics of a dark/elec brute)

Personally Id avoid shadow maul for reasons stated above. I found it much more effective to have ultra rapid cycling low attacks that could lay heap big acc debuff and give heap big fury bar.

For PvP you may want Shadowmaul to lay down the law once your fury has built up, but thats about it. Personally, Id stick to the tier9 immobilise power and concentrate on fast recharge on that, so you can quickly stack up immobilise and carry on your pummelling.

And for any brute, get stamina asap, slot x3 asap. Endurance is the brutes worst enemy. DM/Elec gives you plenty of tricks to keep end up - It plays like a brute who can sustain extremely high endurance bars but sacrifices big big hitters (but at 800% damage boost, even the smallest power packs a tremendous wallop! [img]/uk/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])

Man I feel so bad [img]/uk/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

But Dante is right [img]/uk/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

May I offer my prefuse apologies to all of the Militia. Events are largely ouut of my control, but apologies nonetheless.

/em flagelletes self with cat 'o nine tails [img]/uk/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It depends on what you want your scrapper to do.

If you want the best build for a team, the best scrapper is...

An Ice Tank or a /Energy Blaster [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]...except that /elec is more damaging than /NRG...

[/ QUOTE ]

Pedant! [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

It depends on what you want your scrapper to do.

If you want the best build for a team, the best scrapper is...

An Ice Tank or a /Energy Blaster [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Trick Archery does have some benefits over Rad or Rark though:

Much, much larger AoE
"Clicky" debuff not toggle (apart from huge END savings, if you get detoggled/held its not game over)
No need for "clustering" of enemies - they get hit, they get debuffed: roll on the knockback and team chaos.

Personally, on my Mastermind, I love TA - because we dont have tanks in CoV. In CoH, with a good tank, dark/rad will probably out debuff TA, because they will stop the 'fender getting mezzed, and they can keep everyone together in debuffery goodness.

ALERT ALERT ALERT

Guys, Its my birthday on Tuesday, and I have a week off from work (needed after the all nighter on Thurdsay [img]/uk/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img])

The wifey has organised a suprise night out on upcoming Thursday which is [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] but it means Im letting the Militia down again! [img]/uk/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Sorry guys, Its not normally like this, but RL interrupts are like busses - you get none, then they all come at once [img]/uk/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

If anybody would be around Sunday 11am / 1pm we could finish it off, but otherwise I just dont know what to suggest!

My view?.

Its not on.

Roleplay doesnt justify it.

Sorry, It was a very bad thing to do.

Good points by derek!

Anyway,

Any chance of FC, Portent, Banshee, Angel (and others) finishing the TF tonight (Wed) around 7:30 ish?

AFAIK.. and bear in mind im pretty wobbly about this, its mag2 resistance, and applies both to trollers and fenders (although the fenders will get significantly better defence bonus).

Which means its enough to stop most single holds / mez effects, unless stacked... yikes!

Sorry Pious.

If we can do it TUesday pm that would be good.

Ill try to weedle out of work stuff but its pretty remote possibility

ALERT.... ALERT... ALERT...

Guys, due to a work related crisis, I have to stay at rotten ol work till late on Thurdsay (typical, that day was chosen....)

I cant really predict acurately how late I will be but Im probably looking at 9pm!!!

Sorry for this, believe me Im throroughly annoyed - work is so stressful ATM its making me ill and this is the last straw.

Please go ahead without me, if you wish to. Im really sorry because to be honest I think you might struggle fighting an AV without FC (and -regen powers).

Other options would be to wait til late on Thurdsay night, to miss a week, or to reschedule it to Tuedsay night for instance.

Once again, Im really really sorry (and angry)...

Let me know anyway. If you go ahead without me (and I dont mind at all) then I wish you the very best of Force Commander Luck!

The only better secondary power a tank can take is Ice Slick, IMO.

But this tank taunt vs non-taunt debate is as old as the hills. Clearly some people feel able to tank without it.

Personally, I dont feel like Im a tank without it (when im playing a tank), and I dont feel comfortable teaming with a tank without it. I simply dont get a tank without taunt... Im sorry. If I had a choice, I wouldnt team with them, but thats just me. And yes, Im not proud of it, I would do that without judging the tank at all. Because not choosing it often represents a psychological set of the tank that they dont care about the team and aggro grabbing half as much a tank that gets it. Not always, but I myself find this a very good rule of thumb. Sorry folks, Its my last prejudice and Im not even sure I should be apologising for it. I do know that there are some good tanks out there without taunt, but Im not prepared to find out. Yikes! Im a bigot!

Both, and more...

Allows pulling by tanks to corner

Allows you to pull your weight facing the cabal

Allows you to work with knockback

Allows you to pull ambushes and second groups, and whoopsie dasies that will occassionally happen even in very good groups

[ QUOTE ]


And btw, I dont know a single tank secondary attack that would ADD to team survival more than taunt.

[/ QUOTE ]


Hammer... meet nail....

Yep folks, the only reason to take another attack is that it helps solo play. It doesn't help team play more than taunt.

And as for the argument

Tank + Good teamworks is as good as Tank with taunt.

This isnt the point.

Tank with taunt + Good teamwork is better than Tank + good teamwork