Cognito

yep well spotted!

Cant Stinkt Thrait

Tired

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz *snore*

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Having said all that, I do think a Tank should put some effort into their damage-dealing as well. It's neither efficient nor fun to have 1 or 2 attacks till your late 20s.


[/ QUOTE ]

Fun? Probably not

Efficient? You will certainly maximise team efficiency by taking taunt. Every enemy attacking you is expending energy highly inefficiently.

IMO it is highly efficient for a team for the tank to take taunt.
Unfortunately for most tank builds there is only room for 2 attacks and taunt before level 22 if you want to get stamina at level 20. Even that is taking compromises on defence.

[/ QUOTE ]

And now that Rad and Dark defenders are popular, you want to be getting tight clusters as much as possible.

Personally, when I tank, my philosophy is this...

Irrespective of how any of the other plays play - no matter what they do, it is my responsibility that there HP doesnet move

Weave?

And maybe if at level 49 you might think about PvP, focussed accuracy to give those stalkers a beating?

I actually have done that with my rad defender a couple of times, to teams of new players who screamed heal and killed the anchor...

"Stay back folks" (Rest of the team all huddle out of range)

Lingering Radation, Ennervating field, Radation Infection...

Jump next to anchor, put on Choking cloud...

All enemies in debuffed goodness, then start choking away and flailing limply at me... Rad defender starts reading newspaper...


Suffice to say, no one killed the anchor anymore... [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I do that, sometimes.

For instance, if fighting the cabal or skyraiders... or sometimes the tsoo... Those enemies just wont sit still... in that case, taunting becomes no1 priority. Its not that I wont attack, its that im scanning around all the time for the loose ends...

Also, once you get up to 6-8 man teams, your damage becomes proportionally less significant. Again, in those teams, I will attack, it just becomes more important to keep all enemies tightly clustered to let the real damage dealers do their work.

It also depends on build. Playing my ice/ice, my damage is feeble. Playing my fire/fire attacking becomes much more important.

However, I think you can actually contribute far more to TEAM damage by keeping every mob packed closed to you, so the blaster can spam those AoE without fear of death.

Ive noticed that "loose ends" distract other ATs.. they become concerned with their own safety, and the whole team looses efficiency in that way.

So, it sometimes behoves one to taunt first, attack second. I think this is a valid tactic (by all means attack but just do it carefully not spamming it) on occassion.

And there is nothing like playing an ice/ice tank, facing a spawn of 15 or so, and doing the newspaper emote whilst they all flail away at you and slip on the ice slick... [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. you want me to break that emote to attack with frozen fists! you crzay dude you!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Is it being a skranker? well here you probably have to say yes, unless its for concept reasons. If you take something like boxing/tough/weave instead of taunt, I can sort of understand. If you take another attack instead of taunt, well inevitibly its going to push you towards the skranker camp isnt it?

[/ QUOTE ]Maybe. However, IMO a tank who can both keep the aggro, AND contribute offensively is FAR better for the team that one with zero offensive value.

[/ QUOTE ]

But a tank with taunt also contributes offensively, so thats a bit misleading.

A tauntless tank will skip one attack. Also consider that an attack need at least 4 slots. Taunt needs one. So that even replacing an attack with taunt (skipping one) means you have three more slots to soup up your attacks.

So thats a bit misleading. A tank with taunt has far from ZERO offensive capability. It is simply slightly less than the tank with taunt.

[ QUOTE ]
Not quite the same I admit but there are several stone tanks that have built their tanks without the I-Win button of granite. So some people do try and tank without some of their armours.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you see, if I say a stone tank without Granite, it would be /em praise.

I think the psychology of that is FAR different from the psychology of not taking taunt.

Have to agree with you there, actually... Anything that shafts diversity is pretty poor.

But, taking a step back... what about the "requirement" for you to take your smash/lethal armour?. How about skipping that if you really want a challenge.

There are LOTS of powers that are almost requirements for a character. A controllers single target hold, or his pets (for non mind trollers) for instance.

Or a tanks smash/lethal armour, or a tanks taunt aura.

Taunt actually gets off pretty easy. At least you only need one slot to make it pretty good. One taunt duration and it works out of the box.

So I do agree with you that tauntlessness should be possible to play. But please dont single out taunt.

And personally, I have had always seen taunt as a near requirement for solid tanking, but thats just me.

Making a mistake is totally valid... and doesnt make you a nOOb (i hate that word), idiot, selfish, or anything. Similarly for not realising the merits of taunt.

Making the game more of a challenge?. Certainly. Personally, Psygon, I DONT think thats a common motivation for not taking taunt. In fact, I think thats a damm rare one. How about not taking your smash/lethal armour if you want more of a challeng?, or not taking dull pain? (The invun one not the empath this time [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]). Funny, I dont see many tanks skipping them for "more of a challenge". I dont buy that motivation at all. Even in the highly unlikely (IMO) chance that it was to make the "game more challenging", its interesting that this challenge gives the tanks team mates the risk of debt, and not the tank, isnt it? [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Idiot? No
Selfish? Possibly
Scranker? Probably

It depends. For concept reasons, I have no problem at all. In fact, I find people taking powers out of concept a bit distasteful (not overtly, just rankles a bit).

BUt outside of concept, whats the motivation for NOT taking taunt?

Is it idiotic? certainly not. I have met enough idiots with taunt, and some very good tauntless tanks who are clearly not idiots. .

Is it selfish? possibly. Finding selfish builds in CoX is like trying to spot fat Americans, tho. Its a bit like seeing an empath who has taken a second single target blast and not dull pain, or a rad defender who has taken stealth instead of enervating field I guess.

Is it being a skranker? well here you probably have to say yes, unless its for concept reasons. If you take something like boxing/tough/weave instead of taunt, I can sort of understand. If you take another attack instead of taunt, well inevitibly its going to push you towards the skranker camp isnt it?

You are cruising along in a solo mission, then suddenly you are stunned and at 1/3 hit points wondering how you missed that quantum...

This is kind of my concern, as above; irrespective of taunts undoubted value to a tank... NOT taking taunt... whats the psychology behind it?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just to answer the OP, NO.
I don't understand the reason why you shouldn't pick THE defining power of tankers.

[/ QUOTE ]Except that taunt isn't the defining power, not after aggro caps got implemented...Aggro aura is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Id agree with you there MaX,

But I would say that taunt is certainly the defining power of the secondary set.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So yes, I stand by my opinion that taking taunt over an attack will make you a "worse" tank.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please tell me you meant that taking an attack over taunt would... or else I think I'm as lost as a fart would be in a jacuzzi [img]/uk/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Mon Pleasure...

I meant to say taking an ATTACK over a TAUNT will make you a worse "tank". [Not necessarily toon].

Mumble mumble... rotten cold... mumble mumble... cant sleep... mumble mumble... cant Strink Thrait... [img]/uk/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

By my definition, there is a scale of tanking and that is

Survivability + Aggromagentism

And thats it.

Its the same as saying there is a scale of healing which is

Heal HP per second

Or a scale of blasting which is

Damage per second.



So yes, I stand by my opinion that taking taunt over an attack will make you a "worse" tank. Will it make you a worse toon? no. Will I not team with you? no. Is it less fun? no (Probably more fun for you to be honest).


A lot of people are saying they have a mindset which is not A or not B. A common thread is it people without taunt. Now I appreciate this was somewhat artificial and there is a spectrum between A and B. I dont think there is a "third way", although there is a compromise somewhere in the middle.

I'll say this. Im a total mindset A. If somebody dies on the team. It better be me first. Anything else and Im a failure as a tank. I wont LOOK to die, but Im sure as hell nobody else is going to die. And I think that attitude is what gets me a lot of gratitude [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[ QUOTE ]


At this specific point in my build I have to disagree. If I had taken Taunt then I would be left with 2 attacks until level 24. No matter what, I am suspicious of any AT who neglects either their primary or secondary powers.

Perhaps at later levels I will, but certainly there is no room for it before I get Hibernate (I love that power...)

[/ QUOTE ]

Er... taunt IS a secondary set? [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Taking taunt over an attack WILL make you a worse tanker. It may give you more damage... it will certainly make you more soloable. But it will also make you a worse tank.

If you are talking taking taunt over a primary power (one which makes you more survivable), this is another matter.

Heh ho folks...

Can anyone tell me if there is any difference between teleport foe pool power and the Warshade clone (um... Starless something or other?)

Seems a bit off that a tier 1 pool power should be effective as a primary set, but can someone enlighten me?

[ QUOTE ]
I think we reached the bottom line in this issue weeks ago. Which was; no matter how good a tanker you are without taunt, you'll always be better with it, irrespective of what kind of tanker you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Who dosent?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Any anyway, Are you mind set A or mindset B? [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
the problem with that question is that... based on your tongue in cheek description of A or B I'm either a by the numbers person or an idiot. [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

So, I'll go for MaX's mindset C.

[/ QUOTE ]

What, you mean you didnt fall for my psychological ploy of deviously ensuring you placed yourself in an artificial category and thus hung yourself?

Bah Humbug! [img]/uk/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Mindset A FTW! [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

It is possible for any tank...

Its much easier for an Ice tank, because the mob you left is slowed and wont disperse.

Its much harder for a Stone Tank, and IMO effectively impossible for a granite.

(Lets take speed boost out of the equation for a moment).

Its still a risky strategy at best - dashing out of the cluster to punchvoke the straggler. Taunt is much more effective (auto hit, ranged, no endurance cost, hits 5). I only use it with my ice tank if absolutely necessary, because of the risk.

Any anyway, Are you mind set A or mindset B? [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
See, another tank can just move next to those foes in a second or two, while stone needs taunt to get them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? And almost immediately lose agro of the group he was standing in the middle of and the rest of his team is firing into? They'd really thank you for that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have found this technique possible on an ice tank. With the slows, it is possible to do short hops (1-2 seconds) out of the mob, punch, and dart back in again. Its pretty limited, but it is an option. Its certainly no substitutr for the 5 target auto hit taunt, but I have occassionally have to use it when taunt is recharging.

See, my concern is not JUST that taunt makes you a better tank (which it does)...

Its about psychology. And thats why I get anxious when i see a level 20+ tank withoutu taunt.

To my mind, there are two mindsets for a tank:

Mindset A:

Right, no-one is gonna die in my team unless a die first. Hell, no-one's health bar is gonna move but mine. Im gonna soak up every last bit of aggro. The team comes first. I jump in, I look around, check no ones being attacked before flailing away myself. Anyone taking damage - I stop attacking, and make damm sure they are safe. My job is to let all the other guyus do theres without panicking or worrying about themselves.

Am I gonna take taunt?



Mindset B:

LOL I am teh uber n1 c@n d34eat me !!!111!!!!!!!11!!. Im gonna punch these guys to oblivion. Look team, they cant hurt me. LOL you are so squishy, you are dying over there! LOL look at me Im still superhard. Weeee look at my punches. Im gonna kill this d00d who cant hurt me. LOL you guys are n00bs, you are getting debt. You should have chosen a tank, we never die. Im never gettind debt, no sirree!

Am I gonna tank taunt?




(PS This post is tounge in cheek. This thread needs a humour injection [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

Im not saying the scanario is made up, its totally feasible. Im just saying that I could construct a feasible scenario, give you a choice of feasible builds, and given thr right things i give you, pretty much force you to choose what I wanted.

E.g. A man is going to shoot you in the head if you dont give him a 5 pound note. Straight away. And only a five pound note.

You can choose a 50 pound note, a tenner, or a fiver, but only one of these.

What note would you choose?

This choice must mean that its the best thing to have!

[img]/uk/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]