Cognito

Excellent work! congrats!

I can see why ol Blue eyes went down if there was no PToD! now it becomes clear! nice work anyway!

Actually more impressed with the three doms taking down an AV with PToD!

Top domination!

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I've soloed Johnny Sonata's soul, even-level AV, as a lvl 36 ice/energy dominator 2 days ago. No -regen here. Took me 20min, but that's besides the point : a dominator can beat 300% regen solo, while I've yet to beat 300% regen with a corruptor without using -regen, before lvl 47 and HOs.

If one dom has enough DPS to kill one even-level AV without -regen, I'm pretty confident 8 doms will have. enough DPS to kill one +3 AV without -regen. And with -regen, it'll go faster.

Oh and as regards to /energy. Ill just clarify my rather poorly put out opinion. I think dominators are slightly underpowered against AVs/Heroes. I think /energy assault is slightly superior to other assault powers because of the heavy control factor they bring in from the melee disorientates. These differences are slight, not severe. However, the problem with the RLSF is that slight differences can really make a difference.

And, my plant dominator wants seeds of confusion to be less powerfull.
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I heartily congratulate you. I dont think Ive ever solo'd an Arch Villian on any toon. Im truly in awe of someone doing it with an AV!. How on earth you managed it I doubt Ill ever know but well done. I can barely solo an EB with a dominator and thats at even level and sucking my inspiration tray dry. How you did that on an invincible setting! Let me know!

However, I will stand by my comments that -regen powers are too valuable against AVs. The difference between having one and not having one against an AV is far too noticible.

Ok. I dont like the tone this is taking. Im bowing out now saying you have made a lot of good points that I have considered and modified my opinion on. However, I am still of the view that dominators are slightly underpowered against AVs. Which is the question of the OP.

I really dont mind my opinions being ground down by polite argument but thats not what you have in mind it seems.

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If I was being charitable I would call you 'inconsistent'. I'm amazed that 6 months after I was having these same arguments people are posting this nonsense on the forums. If your experience of Dominators comes from reading the descriptions do I really need to roll my eyes upwards?

Try out an Ice Blast Corruptor and and Ice Assault Dominator and then say you do " less damage than a Corruptor with Domination running ".

The reality is if you compare the Corruptor's Ice Bolt and Ice Blast with the Dominator's Ice Bolt and Ice Sword their damage is the same, excluding both Domination and Scourge (In fact Ice Bolt does do very slightly more damage). These attacks have the same recharge, same end cost.

If you look at the single target attacks between Ice Blast and Ice Assault, the Dominator has 5 attacks whereas the Corruptor has 3. Want to guess which one does more single target damage?

It doesn't seem like you have actually looked that much at all at the assault sets. Energy Assault, by the way, is far from a superior set, I would say it's balanced since it has Power Boost but is certainly beaten for damage by Fire, Ice and Thorns. All the assault sets have things going for them including Psi Assault.

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Please stay charitable!


Admitedly Im no expert on dominators. I have played them up to level 28, 23, 22, and 12 at various times - not to high levels (for reference, a Plant/Psi, Ice/Ice, Ice/Fire, and Mind/Energy). Merely qouting the handbook does not mean, as you seem to have concluded, that this was my only experience of dominators (which I concede is not full) - but rather a pointer to how the dev's see the damage output of the two ATs. And that is, perhaps, worthy of pointing out?.

Just because I have a different opinion, it dosent mean I havent looked at these things fairly carefully. I have played an Ice/Ice dominator up to level 23 and an Ice/Thermal Corruptor up to level 12. I know what felt more damaging from experience. My exepreience of my 3 dominators and my 5 corruptors - I have always felt the corruptors outdamaged. They certainly solo'd a lot faster.

For reference, I care little for single target damage on its own. Its only one factor.

There really are so many variables: dps, dpe, animation times, accuracy, etc.. its hard to just say "toon x has more single target attacks" therefore it outdamages. Im sorry, I wouldnt actually want to guess which toon does more single target damage. However, I would be fairly confident in which one does the most AoE damage. The brawl index system, i understand, is flawed, so one cant take it as gospel. Im sorry, but I would have to say that I still view dominators as having less damage potential than corruptors from my experience and from the (sometimes innacuate and flawed) data I have. But it certainly interesting that you have had a markedly different experience.

I found my /energy dominator overpowered personally. Simply because they add more control in terms of powerful melee disorientate effects. I find plant/ overpowered too, because of seeds of confusion.

Beleive me I only really say things are overpowered because I play the set. And when I do, I tend to loose interest in the sets. Not that any one set is vastly superior, it just it seems kind of odd to me to play something that feels overpowered. I dont like it. Now it may just be my lack of skill or misperception, but it is at least based on actuallly playing these sets to a reasonable (usually level 20+) level - although I concede I only played /energy to level 12. I do find seeds of confusion overpowered, I do find /energy secondary overpowered, just like I find things like the /regen secondary overpowered.

Anyway, only offering my humble opinions. Sorry for any offence caused by them - not really my intention!. Ill have to disagree with much of what you wrote, just as you disagee with much of what I wrote, I suppose. Im not quite sure how I have been inconsistent in my opinions, as you say - even if you disagree with them I think I have been fairly consistent - unless I have been persuaded otherwise on the boards?

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Interesting. Thanks. Can I clarify tho... 3 dominators and what else? I take it you didnt take down a Hero with just 3 dominators.

I agree drain psyche has a very good -regen component - it just doesent last that long afaik.

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Yup, just us three (3).

30 second duration, with 30 second downtime without Hasten. With Hasten the downtime is about 15 seconds or so. This downtime didn't matter really, we downed him fast.

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Very impressive. Especially as you must have been running on a high difficulty level to actually spawn a Hero rather than an elite boss.

/em tips hat.

For my interest - what sets? Id imagine at least 2 /psi sets in order to get adequate -regen?

(Another topic of course - the ridiculous overpoweredness of -regen powers in toppling AVs)

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Really, I thought it was less?

And the recharge is?

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Cognito I would suggest you get Character Builder, it's not always right but most of the power information is correct:

Character Builder

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I do. And as you note, its not always correct.

Really, I thought it was less?

And the recharge is?

Interesting. Thanks. Can I clarify tho... 3 dominators and what else? I take it you didnt take down a Hero with just 3 dominators.

I agree drain psyche has a very good -regen component - it just doesent last that long afaik.

Just to clarify, I love dominators and I love playing them. I dont think they are gimped in any way (although they do need to be balanced - plant and /energy are superior imho). And I dont think they are USELESS against AV's, I just think they are relatively weak especially compared to a corruptor for instance.

Normally this wouldnt be a problem, but I think it IS for a RLSF where there is a "prize" and success hangs so finely in the balance.

Didnt get a feel for it in that thread. I understand you took down Aurora? How was it? what level was she? +1? +2? How long did it take?

Well id be interested how it works out. I take it you havent tried.

The problem is the time it would actually take to down an AV when you have no -regen (or a fairly small one at best in /mind) and rather mediocre damage. Take all the lucks you want, I think they might be rather dry by the end.

Has anyone had an experience of 8 doms taking down even one +3 Hero? Im genuinely interested. It sounds very tough to me.

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I can think of some all-cor teams and all-doms teams that could make it without temps. All-brutes, I don't think so though.


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All corruptor teams definately. Id like to see how the regular all dom-team does in the LRSF. I think, personally, they will have a helluva task. THe major problem would be actually doing enough damage. It could be done, but it would be a long slow process methinks - and with little room for error. Id like to see how they would do against statesman unleashing AoE murder. He wont be held all the time, and if not held dominators have absolutely no damage mitigation bar patron power pools and rather feeble hit points.

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Dominators also do at least as much damage as Corruptors.

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I dont know how you calculate this. Even in the super-basic official AT introduction, corruptors are listed as "high" damage, and dominators as "medium".On my dominators, I can only come close to corruptors damage when domination has fired off, and even then its still less. And thats not factoring in scourge or nova's. Add in corruptors ability to buff damage to entire team or to debuff damage resistance and its a pretty clear winner on the corruptor side.

I dont make tanks or brutes without taunt either, but it seems to be a rare thing.

The thing is, with AV fights you have to look at the weakest chain in the link. Even if you can consolidate aggro 95% of the time its pretty poo, because a stray attack on a defender or blaster can pretty much floor them.

To a degree, you are only as good as your weakest link.

However, this sounds a pretty fair balance. Tauntless tanking is now viable, but not desirable. Which is about right to me.

DOes anyone have a linky to gauntlet / aura changes. I read somewhere that auras will have to pass a "to hit" roll at -20% accuracy to keep a AV interested.

If this is the case, I cant see taunt being anything other than invaluable im afraid.

Immobs are all well and good providing someone can ensure taking the aggro. Otherwise its a failry quit splat when an AV turns attention to a dominator (unless heavily debuffed i suppose). And I dont see many brutes with taunt. In fact, Ive seen only one ever. Heck, I saw a level 44 brute with no aura or taunt a few days ago.

I dont think anybody is saying dominators are useless. Its just that when facing an AV they are definately lacklustre compared to corruptors and brutes, and probably stalkers and masterminds too.

And if AVs have mag 50 resistance with triangles up - then 8 dominators all with domination up are going to give a total mag 32 hold. Not enough. I suppose they could stack this with a AoE hold but that doesnt come up for long and even then you will only have held one AV. (AFAIK power boost increases the duration of the hold not the mag). I cant see how an 8 man dominator team could possibly succeed in the RLSF myself, but someone correct me.

Twilight Grasp has a relatively long animation and needs a to hit roll.

If Assault Bot is in the red and you are facing a nasty enemy - like an EB for instance, will be shrugging off your holds and fear (and even with debuffs will be pounding you), then I for one would far rather have repair than twilight grasp.

This is, however, only a small proportion of the game - albeit the most challenging.

Twilight Grasp is a much better power of course. But it has three relative disadvantages - it needs at least 3 (normally 4 imo) slots to be functioning well, it has a long animation time (during which time red can turn to skulls) and it needs a to hit roll. Repair, whilst no doubt being a less valuable power, suffers none of these disadvantages.

When push comes to shove, against that EB/AV, you may well require repair aswell. But if you can think of a better power for yourself, take it.

Depends on the rest of your build to be honest.

The thing is, its a "oh... f" button, normally for your big bad Assault bot, which you really dont want to loose mid fight against that EV/AV who has suddenly pounded it to within an inch of its life. Its not a regular heal.

My advice is it depends on your slots. Repair is a great power with one slot. One recharge (maybe two if you are feeling very generous).

The advantage of "one slot" powers is they free a multutude of slots up for your other powers that really need 4-6 slots (like the dark heal for instance ).

So I say - it depends on your build. If you have got enough slots to throw around even if you take another power, then take that power. If slots are tighter, take repair, live with its one slot and occassionally it will save your behind.

Looks like auras still wont cut the mustard folks. Need "to hit" for AVs. So unless you plan on heavy aura slotting (and i mean heavy) taunt remains a must level 40+. Id still be pretty nervous taking on an AV with a tauntless tank myself.

This is the huge problem: Dominators are the weakest AT in the LRSF.

In normal play, I dont think people mind too much. However the LRSF is quite different. Fisrtly, you get a concrete reward at the end, meaning people really really want to succeed.

Secondly, success hangs on a knife edge. Even optimised, highly erxperienced teams have the fight of the life on their hands.

Put these two together, and nobody wants to take dead weight along. Even stalkers and masterminds (who are arguably slightly weaker than brutes and corruptors against the final heroes) can sometimes be considered with caution.

What team is ever going to take a seriously underperforming dominator along for the ride? I certainly dont know of any.

Dominatosr do need a very careful look at. And the answer, contrary to devs apparent vision, is not, IMHO, to bring domination up more and more often.

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DDT: Debt dodging tank. Avoid.

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They could also have been newbies who dont have a clue. Try not to judge by builds only.

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I dont. I judge by a mix of build and level. Anything excusable first ten levels. Pretty much anything excusable the next ten two. Liberal flexibity up to level 30. However, I draw the line there. If a level 30 tank hasnt got taunt or taunt aura there simple isnt any explanation other than a strictly solo tank or a DDT.

Whilst I dont want to see a return to mega-tanks running around whole maps clustering everything in sight, the scarcity of good tanks these days is a depressing thing.

All one can hope for in pick up groups these days is that the tank will take the alpha.

The above observation of a stone tank without mud pots or taunt and tough is reaaly depressing. There is little doubt in my mind that the only consideration that player had was to avoid debt and survive, without giving a hoot about the team.

DDT: Debt dodging tank. Avoid.

Ooops, sorry. .

Well, if you are going strictly solo there may be alternative options. Fire Sword Circle, consume, combustion are all AoE so are of dubious value for solo toons (unless you plan on the grind of herding relatively low level mobs and unleasing AoE but I never found this particularly effective or indeed enjoyable). You may be better off slotting up the single target effects or even taking kick/punch/air superiority to finish of the chain.

Personally, I hardly ever run acrobatics on my fire tank when running solo. Its not worth the end cost. May want to consider that, or even go hover/fly so you have some pseudo kb resistance when push really comes to shove (and hover has, iirc a lot less end cost than acrobatics).

It looks a pretty solid build for solo to me. Personally Id drop combustion and replace it with stealth. I wouldnt have thought the extra AoE is worth it and it gives you the oppurtunity to stealth missions. And as above, id consider changing to hover/fly.

And could always do with hasten if any free slots come up, I suppose, for those pesky Elite Bosses.

Personally, id stick blazing aura in myself - its good AoE damage and would at least give you the oppurtunity to team if you feel like it.

Dont expect any invites with that build.

A fire tank needs blazing aura as soon as possible. It is the MOST efficient way of making sure everything is attacking you and not mr. blaster behind you. Personally, Id get this by level 10 at least. However, with all due respect, a tank who hasnt got this by the mid 20's is going to be in serious serious trouble.

Secondly, at the moment, you DO need taunt in the 40's. Whilst many argue that you really need it much earlier (by the 20s at least) in order to truly tank (and I am one of the purists who do), the way the game stands currently taunt is a necessity to make sure that Arch Vilians are attacking you. Without taunt you will be very lucky to do this.

To be honest I was shocked seeing the build missing both Blazing Aura and taunt. Your job, in a team, is to make sure that YOU are attacked (and die) not anybody else. These two powers are your main (not only) tools to do this. Without them, you are fundamentally a low damage scrapper.

Its ok to be a "low damage scrapper", aka "Skranker", but fire/fire builds are all about AoE damage. AoE damage needs teams to truly shine. And you are going to be extremely unpopular for a team when, as a tank, you dont make damm sure you are taking the aggro.

Some tank builds are better to "scrank" - like superstrength which is nearly all single target damage. Fire melee is an AoE king.

Needs a serious rething imho. You could easily drop feiry embrace and build up for these powers. Burn is pretty useless these days without controllers/defenders immobilizing and slowing everything so they stay in the burn. You certainly will annoy a lot of people by using burn if you dont have taunt to bring them back (and even then...).

Remember, damage is your secondary, and your secondary priority. As a fire/fire you will be the highest damage tank you can get - but that doesnt mean you can neglect your primary role. If a team wanted an AoE damage dealer they would be far better off with a blaster.

So - tactics on a defender (effecting the whole team) is about the same as targeting drone on a blaster (effecting a blaster only...)

hmmm....