Cognito

I meant stacking in terms of KB magnitude not distance!

Hey ho,

Quick question folks. Considering respeccing my Grav/Sonic controller.

I wondered if a tactic might be to get the Sonic KB aura buff?. If I placed this on sing - would this stack with sings innate KB aura (giving a mag 4 KB which would effect bosses), or would it be pants?

Hey ho,

My first blaster, Loud Speaker, has hit 33. A nice sonic/fire fellow he is.

Question for you folks... how do I slot? I was thinking 3xdam, 3xrecharge, as I want it up as much as possible, and will only really be using it with BU + Aim boost.

I was wondering if 3xdam, 2xrercharge, 1xacc might be worth it as it would allow it to be used mid fight when things suddenly go a bit askew. Reason being its disorientate effect and massive damage would be a bit of a tide turner. Thing is its use in such situations would be a bit of a panic button and Im not sure it could hang around for BU+Aim. So i would probably need 1 accuracy in it to make sure it hit enough.

Advice and thoughts?

Im not arguing that /Regen or /SR is superior. (Although / Regen, to my mind, is superior solo).

It is, however, important to discrinate between how heals (flat) and defence/resistance (proportional) damage mitigation occurs.

Bear in mind that /Regen will probably have some proportional mitigation (resilaince or maybe tough), and /SR will have some flat mitigation (natural HP regen).

Exactly the same principle applies to extrenal heals (from an empath or other healing power) vs Force feilds, Sonic shields, or even debuffs.

Well thats another point, but its not really about chance vs non-chance. For instance Resistance has the advantage over Defence in being more predicatble in damage mitigation, like Regen.

The difference is that Resistance and Defence reduce a PROPORTION of incoming damage - meaning that the more incoming damage there is, the more damage they reduce.

Regen has a flat rate of HP recovery irresepective of what situation they are in. It therefore doesent matter if nobody is attacking them or everybody is... their damage mitigation is the same.. or "FLAT".

FF? Worst secondary? Huh?

AoE team mez protection from just one power????

Now it may not shine at low levels but come level 30-50 when mez effects fly left right and centre... Im a happy man when a sonic or FF comes onto a big team.

Delfection and Insulation sheilds are absolutely wonderful too. Defence is more valuable than Resistance at late levels - its not so much the damage that hurts, its those malta sappers, those cabal end drains, those stuns, sleeps, holds, slows, etc...

Ill admit the rest of the set pales by comparison, but with those three frankly excellent powers, Im not suprised.

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The "heals 100" bit could be concieved to be a combination of clickyheals and natural health regeneration.

The overall point was that regen can only ever mitigate a certain level of damage (the total amount of regen, and clickyheals + dull pain +MaxHP) because unlike SR it does not actually reduce the amount of incoming damage, it "absorbs" it instead.

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Exactly.

By "Heals" I was including all things like reconstruction/dull pain, etc. The figures are purely hypothetical to show the difference between "flat" and "proportional" damage "mitgation". Obviously the regen scrapper may have some proportional damage mitigation in terms of tough or resiliance, and the SR scrapper will have a natural regen rate possibly augmented by health power.

Yep, not worth a debate really. Especially for a 3 man team and a fire blaster - not much in it at all!.

Id still say that from the TANKS point of view (providing he/she is a solid aggro grabber), he/she would prefer you to be /dark than /regen, for reasons given above.

Sounds fair enough, but bare in mind that, at least for PvE, AoE rule the roost (note exception below).

MA/Regen is the perfect solo toon. Only one AoE, and a secondary that has no AoE and mainly "Flat" damage mitigation.

The bigger the team, the less powerful single target powers get, and the more powerful AoE get. In a 3 man team, its probably the size where neither AoE or single target really have the edge. If it gets larger, you probably start to loose relative effectiveness.

Exception: Arch-Villains (and to a lesser extent Elite Bosses). In this case, single target DAMAGE/DEBUFFS/HOLDS are superior to its AoE version. AoE Buffs and heals still surpass single target versions (at least in a reasonably big team, which is a practical certainty if you are facing an Arch Villian).


My MA/Regen scrapper is level 25. I only play for a bit of light fun when im semi-afk and cant commit to teams. I can assure you they are the best solo toon I have ever played by far. However, I would also be honest and say they would be pretty rubbish for big teams.


If you are regularly teaming with a fire blaster and tank, then Im not sure its the best choice, tbh. In teams, downtime is not normally an issue as you normally have someone who can heal, and in any case the tank should be most worried about this.

If you are set on /Regen, you might want to consider a secondary like Claws or Broadsword, which have at least a few AoE in them. If you are going to be regularly teaming, MA/Regen would personally be my last choice.

Consider something like /Dark armour for instance. If you fight next to the tank, you wont be taking much damage anyway. And /Dark would have an AoE disorientate, an AoE damage, and an AoE fear/accuracy debuff - all stuff that a tank would greatly appreciate as it adds to his survivability (and to your kill rate). A tank gets diddly squat from a /regen standing next to it - and the scrapper only gets to heal AoE damage which isnt that much.


Anyway, go with concept first.

And there are significant problems with balancing because of the discrepancy between flat and proportional damage mitigation. For instance, /Regen becomes overpowered in solo or 1 on 1 PvP play because of it (and underpowered in large teams or group PvP when the other 8 players all gang up on you).

There is an additional problem with level scaling. From a healer or regen's points of view, it makes no difference if you are facing a +2 or -2 enemy - your damage mitigation is the same. However, from the perspective of resistance / defence, you gain more damage mitigation the higher the enemy is.

This might be one reason that empaths / heals are so popular at lower levels - when you are mainly fighting even cons or +1s. However, at high levels when you regularly fight +2s or even +3s, defence and resistance become relatively more effective tools at damage mitigations. Empaths, for instance, become more valued for fortitude and adrenaline boost at this point, IMO.

Say:

Scrapper (R)egen heals 100hp damage per minute.
Scrapper (S)uper reflexes avoids 50% of incoming damage.

Situation 1: Scrapper faces an average of 100 damage in minute (note: average)

Scrapper R ends minute with full damage mitigation: 0 hp taken.

Scrapper S ends with 50 hp damage mitigation: 50 hp taken.



Situation 2:

Scrapper faces 1000 average damage in minute (because of more enemies and aggro).

Scrapper (R) takes full damage, ends up with effectively 900hp damage.

Scrapper (S) takes 500 damage, ends up effectively at 500 damage at end of round.



This is the difference between the "flat" damage mitigation of regen, and the "proportional" damage mitigation of defence and resistance.



This is why, when facing a lot of aggro (such as in a big team), a Super Reflex scrapper will be more efficient at mitigating damage than will a Regen.



Theres the maths as far as I see it. Please correct if appropriate.


I should add that one can never extrapolate to all possible situations in CoH (e.g. buffs, debuffs, primarys, etc), but in principle we are still left with the flat "mitigation" of heals, and the proportional "mitigation" of resistance and defence. The same concepts apply to an empath defender vs a forcefield/sonic defender.

Force Commander: Has 27 seperate senses such as his famed inertiasense and kinetivision.

Devs - GIVE US A PERCEPTION POOL POWER!

Another thing to factor is how they scale with damage mitigation.

A regen scrapper "mitagetes" damage by healing it. It doesnt matter how much damage/attacks comes his way, he or she will mitigate x hit points no matter if it a single minion flailing away, or an enitre 8 man mob.

A SR scrapper mitigates a proportion of the incoming damage. This is very low in the case of a single minion, and very high (far far higher than the regen) in the case of a 8 team spawn (which, to be fair, neither scrapper would survive unless heavy buffs/debuffs are flying around).

This is probably the main difference. Flat damage mitigation for regen, Proportional damage mitigation for SR.

Which probably explains why /Regen is the soloists or duoists choice - you get flat damage mitigation and dont need to hang around to heal up.

However, in a moderate or big team, /SR is better than /Regen in terms of mathematics. (Id say they are about the same in small teams). If said scrapper suddenly gets a heap of aggro, they are likely to survive longer than regen scrapper (mathematically).

The only other thing Id point out is the /defence has occassional advantages. For instance, a high defence toon is very useful vs Malta Sappers, or a load of CoT spectres (you want to avoid those stacked accuracy debuffs).

Concept aside, Id definately say /Regen is much superior as a solo secondary. In larger teams, /SR would be better (although /INvun and /Dark are progressively better still due to AoE effects).

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Seeing as its impossible to keep aggro on more than 15 people these days

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Well spotted!

I guess its all about what team you are in? Seeing as its impossible to keep aggro on more than 15 people these days, you are limited to one group at a time - maybe two but things always get hairy with ambushes!

That being the case, its a simple calculation. Can I (reasonably) safely hold the aggro without granite? In which case, normal armours on. If I can't, its granite time.

Lots of factors to consider - taunt slotting, number of AoE you have, number of dominators for holds, and the mastermind/corruptors on the team and the powers they have.

Like most things in CoX, I guess no one answer fits all team combinations.

I guess the principle is - be in Granite when you need to, be ouut of it when you dont?

Well my stone brute is only 17 so im really just casting about for advice really.

I still cant quite see the point of perma-granite for a brute to be honest - I know thing like hasten and rage mitigate the penalties of granite. But, a hastened and raged non-granite brute will do a lot more damage than a hastened and raged granite brute.

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Are we talking /Stone, or Granite armour?

[/ QUOTE ]/Stone without granite is still /stone with rooted.

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Its not the mobility that is such a problem (although it is of course a problem). Its the huge recharge and damage penalties of granite that worry me. Its bad enough for a tank with a slow recharging taunt.

Surely the tactic would be (in reasonable big teams). - Granite on, taunt, take alpha. Build fury to 100%, Granite off (hopefully by this time dominators and corruptors have laid down their various damage mitigation tools), and let rip?

I cant see using Granite for anything other than alpha's, oh s... buttons, and possibly some AV's, myself. Otherwise its plain innefficient.

Are we talking /Stone, or Granite armour?

Theres to many factors to really compute in my opinion. Controllers are really helpful to any team whilst being comparatively weak solo (not weak, just relatively weak compared to a scrapper for instance). So im sure you will be good vs AV. I dont really count soloing AVs with a heavy as part of regular game play tho!

THe other thing is, a /rad automatically is highly highly useful against AVs because of the incredible value of its -regen power (lingering rad) against an AV - even tho this is an AOE effect.

So I cant say, ever, that certain ATs are better than others under all citrcumstances. Im very pleased I cant!. However, one can say as a pretty good rule of thumb that AoE effects are inefficient and weak solo, and are highly effective and powerful in teams/large spawns. As I said, against AV's, single target attacks once again ghave the edge, whereas AoE buffs are still magnificent.

Ultimately, despite what some people maintain, you cant be a "team build" and a "solo build" at the same time. Some builds will be strong in big teams (ones with lots of AoE), some strong solo (ones with single target), and some builds will be balanced to be fairly good in both. There aint no getting away from the maths, unfortunately. Best just to be honest about it. My MA/Regen scrapper has diddly squat AoE effects. She blitzes through missions solo, invincible, at a blistering pace. Flip side? I know that shes is rubbish in an 8 man team next to the Fire/Rad controller with three leadership buffs running. Not useless, but (Av's aside), not as valuable. If you look at the FoTM superteams running around these days (and they rip through invincible missions like butter) they are all controllers / corruptors / defenders with stacked AoE buffs/debuffs and AoE attacks.

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Not sure about that. All controllers are generally fab in big groups due to the large amount of AoE powers they have at their disposal. /Rad comes off pretty well in number of AoE powers, but Ill/ is moderate. IIRC, Ill has spectral wounds, blind, confusion, superior invisibility all as single target powers, with spectral terror coming in as a near AoE power I guess. Earth for instance has only two single target powers, the rest all AoE. So its a fairly rich AoE set, but not the best.

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AoEs really don't matter - my Ill/Rad doesn't have either of the AoE holds she could have, and she's easily the most powerful and easiest to play toon I have... to the point that I sometimes find her a bit boring, in fact.

What makes it so powerful is that you can do just about anything (as far as PvE goes) in complete safety - risk vs. reward goes out the window. You can operate from invis, you have powerful debuffs, and your pets do most of the work for you. Ill/Rad was the traditional AV soloer. You can also solo spawns meant for much larger teams. You're not going to do that on an Earth Controller.

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Fair enough, but safety is only one aspect to "power". Mathematically, AoE effects will become progresivelly more powerful as teams/spawns become bigger. At least for PvE, however you cut the mustard, AoE > Single target. The only exception really is against AVs, when AoE buffs still rule, but single target damages/holds/debuffs are superior to AoE versions. THis is a very small, but probably most challenging, part of the game I suppose.

Bear in mind im not saying Ill/Rad has poor AoE potential. In the grand scale of Archetypes and no. AoE powers, and Ill/Rad will be way up to the top of the leauge. Just wont be at the top. Its quite hard to "knock" any controller (or indeed defender) from a big team perspective. I suppose something like a Grav/Empath would be the worst of the pack, but even that is streets ahead of most scrappers and a fair number of blasters or tanks (In terms of number of AoE effects).

To use your example, Earth/Rad would be pretty hard to solo. Mainly because of its huge number of AoE powers. However, mathematically, a large team (at least a reasonably balanced large team) would gain slightly more from an Earth/Rad than a Ill/Rad. That the nature of AoE.

Not sure about that. All controllers are generally fab in big groups due to the large amount of AoE powers they have at their disposal. /Rad comes off pretty well in number of AoE powers, but Ill/ is moderate. IIRC, Ill has spectral wounds, blind, confusion, superior invisibility all as single target powers, with spectral terror coming in as a near AoE power I guess. Earth for instance has only two single target powers, the rest all AoE. So its a fairly rich AoE set, but not the best.

Meant to be a very effective combo.

My Grav/Sonic plays pretty well solo and in teams at level 32. The main disadvantage is not putting sonic disruption feild thingy on the pet.

Dont know if anyone has tried it, but I wondered want the sonic repel buff would do on a sing? presumably a stacked repel which would make things pretty nasty in PvP and would be enough to repel a boss in PvE? If anyone has tried this, let me know!

As regards to original poster, its pretty hard to tell. I would have though Ill/Rad might be hard work, what with all that knockback dispersing your rad debuffs. Mind/Storm would loose out on mass sleeps. But these are all rather piddling problems really.

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Are you all playing the same game as me? Since when do Robotics/Dark have problems with EBs? I was duoing AVs up until the I7 changes, and have been trioing them since - and I've not yet met an EB or AV yet that wasn't crippled by the combined debuffs from /Dark. Not once have I been in a situation where I've thought I could have used, letalone 'needed' Repair in my build.[ QUOTE ]


Most EB's I would agree. I play a Bots/Dark MM, which actually has as good if not slightly superior (on the offensive side) debuffs as dark. I dont have a problem with *most* EB's. But I have on some. Ive even had problems with blast furnace, the boss in the mayhem mission. Why? you may ask. Well, when he uses fire sword circle at nearly full defiance in an enclosed area I have suddenly found a lot of robot parts lying around .

The problem is EB's who use huge nova's. Even debuffed, they can be very annoying (afaik TA debuffs damage as much as dark does) high damage, high accuracy stuff. There hasnt been an EB I havent been able to take down, but a few of them have caused my significant problems.

As I said, when a nova or the like is unleashed and all your bots are at a sliver of health - or big stompy is at least, you have a long animation to-hit needed heal or repair... Id go with the latter.

To clarify - Repair for a /dark, I think, would be pretty pointless 99% of the time. But, its not totally pointless.

As I said, It works well with just one slot. I kind of like "slot cheap" powers, because it frees up your slots for other powers. As you said, TG is usually six slotted (I said it needs 4 minimum).

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Even if they werent i wouldnt turn around to one and say sorry but someone elses toon would be better. First come first served basis would have to stand and its up to the whole team to make things work.

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Very well put.