Cognito

My Ice tank:

All primary bar Permafrost and Hibernate.
Ice Slick
Tough
Weave
Aid Self
Taunt


Its a pretty good tank.

Hence, its a judgement call. And, inevitably, everyone will make mistakes.

The only thing I adhere to personally is not to use it as soon as it is available. Why use it when there is no significant danger?

The only bad side to using it is when you use it, and a minute later your team runs into a heap of trouble. EMP would have saved the day, but you used it.

Personally, I dont use things like EMP on a regular basis.

Rationale? I'd rather have it up when I really need it, than use it when not needed and then slip up when something goes awry.

So for me, as Im only using it when things have turned bad, I need it to work really really well. In other words, I slot it 2 acc, 3 hold. I bung in an acc too, just because I love the power.

But I think it depends on how you veiw these types of powers (Including things like AoE controller holds, Vengeance, etc). Some people like them up as much as possible. I take the veiw that since it is impossible to get them up every fight (under normal circumstances, Im excluding insane +recharge buffs), then you shouldnt NEED it up for every fight. Save it for when things go bad.

For what its worth, I would build it something like:

1. Temp Invun
1. Stone Fist
2. Stone Mallet
4. Dull Pain
6. Swift or Hurdle
8. Unyeilding
10. Taunt*
12. Travel Power
14. Travel Power
16. Health
18. Invincibility
20. Stamina
22, onwards - take your pick.

*I wont go into the whole "Taunt" and "Tank" debate here. Surfice to say, many people feel this is an absolute must to be a true tank, some feel its not. I am of the former. About the only thing that can be absolutely, unequivically said is that you MUST have it for the Statesman TF.

I like taking it early, because it costs 0 endurance (and end is a problem at low level), and it only needs 1 slot (and slots are at a premium at that level)

Think of tanking as a progressive shift from Scrappy type tanking to Tanky type tanking as you progress from 1-22

To begin with, get two attacks (so hyou have a little fun), and confine your tanking to "First in".

At some point around lvl 6-10 start progressing to "First in, and make sure you have the boss' attention."

In your teens, when you have DO and start to feel a bit more reslient, progress to "First in, and make sure you take a fair bite of the aggro". Something like 50%% for a large (5-8 man) team is what you can safely handle. Beleive me, teams will still thank you for it. By this time you really MUST have a taunt aura (or get taunt if you are an invun tank). Whilst you arent going to be able to soak up everything, teams will expect you to grab a pretty decent sized proportion of aggro, and you will need one of these powers to do so (Punch voke just dont cut it).

Finally, when you hit the mighty 22 and your defences are fleshed out, you should now be in full "Tank" mode. Nobody expects you to take everything all the time, but you should go in with the philosophy that you soak up most of it, and your team mates should only be dealing with "light showers" of aggro.

Also, be prepared to modify how much you can take according to your set. Psi damage for instance would relegate you back to the "First in" mode, as you have little to offer but a stack of HP allowing you to take the alpha. The same, to a lesser extent, might apply to an Ice tank facing Pumpkins in Croatoa.

I dont know if that helps, but I think thats the way to concpetualise your journey.

Tanking at level 5 is a lot different from tanking at level 25.

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3. PvP Builds
- nerf aid self for instance.

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NO. Seriously. Nerf Aid Self and squishies can only PvP properly if there is an empath in the team. Nerf Aid Self and basically you can say goodbye to anything except Scrappers, Tanks, Brutes and Stalkers in the zones, at least for soloers, and they don't make too good or interesting teams. I like to solo sometimes on my blaster or domi, for instance, both of whom have aid self. I would be solo but also on the lookout for anyone around who would make a good PuG PvP team for that extra bit of fun. Take away Aid Self's usefullness of course, and I'd probably only zonal PvP with my stalker or if I had my PvP mates with me anyway, and if a group of 'PvPers' go into a zone with a well balanced team then it doesn't make any difference, but that's not really the case for casual PvPers. Nerf Aid Self and say goodbye to solo squishies in zones, imo.




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But thats entirely the problem. Unless you solo, the medicine pool is pretty craptacular in PvE. I hardly ever see it on anything but masterminds and solo toons.. *except* that it is a golden marker for those PvP players we spot a mile off (you know, stealth, invis, all single target attacks, TP foe, two travel powers, assault/tactics, and medicine pool etc etc).

You say that if Aid Self was nerfed we would only see (x ATs) in the zones. But thats the problem! i.e. if you plat (x ATs) you "MUST" take Aid Self!


(Although I would disagree with you, being a PvE teamer I avoid that pool like the plague normally, and the few times I have taken a squishy into a PvP zone and engaged in combat I have done ok actually)

Its these kind of problems that drive us PvE players away from PvP zones. And that, unfortunatly, has turned the zones into virtual wastelands bar the occassional well advertised events.

And the more empty they are, the more empty they will get. Only hard core PvP'ers will enter, and the more "distilled" the population of zones gets, the less PvE 'ers will want to enter.

Im not saying I have the answers, and I have pretty much taken back all the "propposed solutions" of my OP as ill thought out. But, again, I emphasise that it is to PvE'ers that PvP zones must cater for if they are to grow, not PvP'ers.

Well I accept all the above points - but they are coming from people who at least dabble in PvP.

Irrespective of "i do o.k. with my xxx build, so come on folks!" talk, and whether you are right or wrong - the perception amongst PvPers is pretty much what I said. And I dont think they are going to be persuaded.

Another out of the box idea?

PvEvP!

...


Off the top of my head... and this is VERY loose, but principles:


Lets say we have a villian team and a hero team. Each is accompanied by 3 arachnos or 3 longbow minions (for the sake of argument) equal to 3 minions for one player.

Both teams, with their minion helpers plonked in a smallish, and relatively closed off map (i.e. corridors, small rooms, not big terrains). Maybe some enemy types in it that fight anybody (like CoT or something).

In the centre a clickable object (long click). Click this, and opposing team "win" and get a rare salvage drop (arcane OR tech people...)

Hospital = the start of the map, but with one end and one hp. Bung some drones in the map or something to stop repeatakill.

Gain xp/inf. for killing the "neutrals" or enemy minions, at increased rate. No xp for killing enemy players (but it will make the enemy minions easy prey!).

Gain debt from enemy minions / "neutrals" proportion of the damage only. So Mr. Stalker 2 shotting you wont mean much debt, but getting hammered by the minions will.


Anyway just an idea. PvEvP might solve a few problems:-

AoE powers will be useful to cream your enemies minions.
Effects like KB which dont do much in PvP will still be highly valuable.
Support AT's will be able to participate in "duels" because they help their minions.
"Smooths out" inquities in power (e.g. inventions) because of the averaging effect of minions.
Rewards, but not by ganking other players.
PvE players / builds / skill actually helps you fight other players (because they will be without minions).

And finally will be a whole new thing to try.


As I say, not fleshed out, but maybe PvEvP would be an angle?

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NO WAI D00DZ

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4d\/3rt1z1ng h1n7. 13375p34k w1ll n0t 3nt1c3 p\/3rz 1n2 p\/p zonz.

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I wonder if PvP could be "advertised". Maybe a PvE'ers PvP night?


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No way either. A full PvEer is hard to get into pvp, since it needs more effort to do it. No i dont mean that us pvpers got uber skills that pvp, its just, jump around all the time, try stay away from Mez, keep an eye out for stalkers. Pretty much multitasking which is hard to achieve the first days of someone's pvp hobby.

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Good point - just thinking outside the box on my part really.

I would suggest, however, that hard core PvE'ers arent ever going to come into PvP. You need to get the Cognito's of the world in. PvE players who arent adverse to the idea of PvP, but arent keen on it / are put off by it.

Now that Sir, is a sterling Idea.

Good stuff. It does seem as if, heaven forbid, this thread may actually be useful.

A few thoughts:

1. The option of "disable set bonuses" for Arena seems one that has some swell of support.

2. Automatic disabling of current zones is a bit of a no-no.

3. Having said that, an optional PvP zone with disabling auto may possibly a way forward.

4. Have to point out that even when "set bonuses" of IO are levl 50+, the uniques such as +stealth, +recovery, +recharge, +regeneration, and resistance to mez effects are still active and convey a huge advantage. I would *imagine* that issue 11 will bring even more "problems" with "Super-powerful" unique bonuses. SO I would point out that the fact that set bonuses get disabled when exemped (although specialised PvP ers will almost certainly overcome that) is only half the answer.


Just a thought:

I wonder if PvP could be "advertised". Maybe a PvE'ers PvP night?

If there was enough enthusiasm and good will this might be fun?. For instance, we gather into teams, have a laugh for an hour or two, and its all in "PvE spirit". No elitism, no ganking, all politeness. Maybe a nice PvP er could lead each team, offer freindly advice, and try to convert us?. And any 1137 speaking, trashtalking, elitist ganker in the zone could be excommunicated from any team and repeatedly pounded to earth until he leaves us alone?

Guys - entice us.

Please, you shouldnt be sorry for using IOs. I know I do!

Im not blaming anyone for "ruining =" PvP. Its certainly not "ruined" for you, and its certainly not "ruined" for me. Cant ruin something I dont like!

I dont think I can make it any clearer: PvE'ers are, in my opinion, dissuaded from trying to PvP because it feels "Unfair". If PvP matches felt more "fair" then we would be more willing to engage.

Manythings contribute to the feeling of "unfairness". Amongst them are invention origins, but this is not the only thing.

Does that clarify things?. I dont consider myself as blaming anyone (because nobody is doing anything malign "on purpose), or indeed do I think PvP is "ruined". Just a comment/opinion on cause and effect.

If its flamebait, I apologise. Seriously so far from my intention you wouldnt beleive. Im trying to help PvP zones be more popular, and the people who benefit most from that (maybe im wrong) are you PvP guys.

Thanks TG.

I was probably a bit clumsy with my original post. But I hope it has some value.

Please bear with me!. Think of me as a PvE player who has some understanding of the core aspects of PvP and who dips his toe in without much enthusiasm. I reckon that precisely the kind of chap PvP needs to "market" itself to.

With regards to rewards:

Well there is nothing inherently bad about this. I was merely pointing out that focussing on rewards is kind of missing the point. We dont avoid PvP because there arent rewards. We avoid it for a loada other reasons.

DIshing out rewards, will, at worse, do not harm - but I think energy is better spent addressing other issues. Does that make sense?

One (potential} problem with rewards is this:- It creates a capatalistic economy. THe more powerful (successful) players get more rewards making them more powerful still, etc etc.

As I said, like it or lump it, probably the single biggest "turn off" for guys like me is the unequal playing feild. If you create a reward stystem of self-perpetuating "1137ness" I am afraid it will be another nail in the coffin of PvP.

If this was considered, I would urge the rewards to be ones that CAN, just as easily, be obtained in PvE so we dont get this cycle.


As to your point about "level playing feild". I still stand by my opinion.

My impression is this:- in PvE, if I am 80% as useful as the next team member (and heck that happens all the time in PvE) well - so what? Is this team doing ok/well? Are we having fun? then who cares!. Im doing well enough for me, and thats ok folks. I dont really care, and normally nobody else does either.

Sure tensions happen sometimes, like when a MA/Regen scrapper joins an 8 man farming team, or when Joe PvP with three travel powers and the medicine pool wants to join a "hangs in the balance" STF or LRSF, but as a rule, us PvE'ers dont really CARE if somebody is less powerful than the rest of the team.

HOwever, that all changes in PvP. Why the heck would I want to enter a PvP zone with my laisez fare non min/maxed, PvE build toon?. Im fighting at a huge disadvantage.

Now of course skill does compensate. But heres the rub - If you want people to enter in the first place, they will be unskilled. And its hard enough when you dont know about PvP - compund this with the unbearable knowledge that you are fighting uphill from a purely mathematical perspective and you can see how PvP isn't our cup of tea.

If there is one thing I would impress about PvE'ers its this: we want a level playing feild.

(Bear in mind Im only one bloke-albeit with lots of coversations with other PvE'ers- so Im sure others may disagree)

I suppose we may be unconsious hypocrites. We like winning. I guess thats human nature. Perhaps we are less driven to win that dedicated PvP'ers, but its there anyway.

I think you are spot on by strongly emphasizing that new PvP'ers have got to die a lot before they start winning.

But I guess the psychology of it is? Why bother? All those PvP guys are at a straight power advantage anyway? Even if I can face trying to within without skill AND at a handicap, im still left with a toon that is gimped compared to all those PvP players with hardcore IO's, FoTM, PvP specific builds.

So Ill stand by my view: THe more level the Playing feild, the more of us may try it out.

I appreciate that may be a hard pill to swallow for all those players that have grinded, sweated, and worked hard for those "ub3r 1337" enhancements, but there it is. Blame the Invention system.

Anyway, hope I have stimulated a few thoughts. I hope something happens to entice us guys into PvP. Not because I want to PvP at the moment. But for two interconnected reasons. Firstly, it will make you PvP'ers happy (a good thing in itself), and Secondly, it will make the game as a whole more healthy, and therefore have greater longevity.

Experience does indeed get you a long way.

But you have start off by getting people interested in it in the first place.

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None of my PvP toons have accolades.. but they have IO's. Sorry for ruining PvP for all you guys.

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I rather suspect you arent sorry at all?

If you dont want to entice us to play PvP, that fine. As I said, as we dont want to anyway, we dont loose anything.

This thread was, however, directed at the multitude of people who

Again, totally understand.

But this is kind of illustrating why PvE'ers dont go into PvP zones. We tend not to go all-out to get accolades as soon as possible. Fine, thats our choice. Dosent bother us an awful lot as long as we do a fairly good job in PvE and have a laugh.

As you say, you worked jolly hard for your early accolade - and congrats to you. I can totally understand how you want to keep this.

But, the fact that you have it and I dont (quite deservedly, because thats the choices we made) means that should we PvP you have the upper hand. And I, like most PvE players, dont get a kick out of an unfair fight. Maybe you dont either, but the fact that it WILL be a fight loaded in your favour keeps me away from PvP.

Solution? Havent really got one (other than the option of disabling these things by mutual concent in Arena). But, I am identifying a problem from a PvE perspective. Thats about all I can offer.

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2. We like a level playing feild.

This is a huge reason we dont enter PvP. With the advent of inventions, and with various exploits to allow early acquisition of accolade powers, PvP is *not* a level playing feild. And thats what we like. PvE'ers as a rule dont care so much about min/maxing, or fully optimising their build. Although we can, we are more interested in having a good concept and good fun. We enter a PvP zone we tend to be fighting min/maxed PvP'ers who, skill being equal, will beat us by simple virtue of being stuffed full of "teh ub3r" inventions.

How to get us in? - disable Inventions / Accolades. Give us a level playing feild. Or at least give us this option in the Arena.


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No way. I didnt spent most of time grinding to get my IOs and the [censored] 75 mils miracle/numina to see a message of Disabling IOs, no no no no. Accolades are badge-earned powers, many people get them for HP+.

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Totally understand, and thats fine, but I suspect the consequence will be us PvE'ers continue to avoid the zones.

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Yes, pvpers often have pvp builds! Just as you have optimised yours for your pve experience! That is your choice. I also worked hard to get some of my accolades at a lower lvl rather than lvling to 50 and then getting them... Why should I be punished because you decided to wait?

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No intention of punishing you. But the flip side is why should I be punsihed because I decided to wait?

Im just pointing out the problem - PvE'ers tend to avoid PvP zones because they like a level playing feild. The more unlevel it is, the less keen they will be to PvP.

IO's and early accolades are the obvious unequivical unbalancers. But I would include FoTM builds, and the poor/strong functioning of AoE/ST effects in PvE/PvP inbalance aswell.

Like it or lump it, if you have imbalance in PvP, PvP will be significantly less popular with our PvE'ers.

Do I have a solution. Not really. Perhaps at least the option of Arena matches having a "Disable Invention set bonus" or "DIsable Accolade" functions. Feels a bit miserable though.

I can only say that the advent of Super rare inventions in Issue 11 will put us PvE'ers off PvP even more.

Again, us PvE'ers have little to loose by making PvP more unpopular. Speculatively, the more empty they are the more the dev's will concentrate on PvE, so perhaps emptying them still further will be good for us. It dosent matter much to us, but it may matter to you.

Well, I certainly didnt mean it as Flamebait. Ive got nothing against PvP'ers.

Really, Im trying to help them. I would be quite happy if the Dev's focussed all their resources on PvE and let PvP die a quiet, ignoble death.

But I have seen a LOT of posts and threads recently about how to make PVP more popular. I think most of them missed the point - you dont make PvP more popular by giving PvP'ers what they want for PvP. You make it more popular by giving PVE'ers want they want for PvP. THEY are your target, not PvP Players.

Do I think PvP players are rabid, insecure, aggressive or even sadistic animals frothing at the mouth patrolling the PvP zones for easy meat? Of course not. In fact, nobody does, but there is a perception that PvP players have a little spectre of that in them.

And to be honest, my solutions are half baked, damage limitation only, and weak. To be honest, I havent got any solutions.

The most obvious thing I can think of is to give AoE debuffs/attacks a bonus to accuracy and damage IF the target is a player. Meaning those powers (PvE staple) become at least semi-useful in PvP. But thats only one small step in making PvP zones attractive.

I was posting really to try and identify the problems. I'm not a PvP'er (well, very occasional only), and as I said, personally I wouldnt shed a tear if PvP dissapeared from the game entirely.

Feel free to ignore my veiws entirely, and I will concede I have no answers. But it may help isolate the problem of why PvP zones are empty by listening to PvE'ers.

Apolgies for any flamebait tendencies in my original post. Once again, this was not my intention - but I felt I needed to express *why* PvE'ers avoid PvP zones.

Im seeing a lot of threads around these boards broadly on the same theme: PvP is rather unpopular, the zones are empty, give PvP rewards, we need more people getting into PvP, etc, etc.

Now I, alongside most of my global freinds, and indeed a lot of people I end up teaming with, are what you might call expereinced PvE'ers. We are not min/maxers, but we are pretty good at making and playing a PvE build. We may dabble in PvP - and are good enough that we wont always face plant, but we just dont "dig it".

So, from my perspective, and I think from many I speak to about PvP, I thought I would tell you my thoughts on why PvP isnt popupular.

I supsect these reasons are quite quite different from what a PvP'er thinks is needed for PvP. But, this is the point - if you want PvE'ers to come into PvP, its to them you must cater, not PvP'ers.

Bear in mind I may have some of these wrong, but I will write these points as "fact"... although they clearly aren't. It would be impossible to do justice to everybodys opinion, but it is the opinion of mine, and most people I play with.


1. We don't want rewards.

Big shock!. We dont avoid PvP because it dosent give xp / salvage / inf / whatever. We probably drop into Bloody Bay for Shivans, but only if we have to do the STF/LRSF.

THe fact is that big PvE'ers with PvE builds and big teams get oodles of xp / inf / drops in PvE zones. We don't need or want more. Ironically, we need these rewards less than PvP'ers, but ill come on to that.

How to get us in? - Not rewards.


2. We like a level playing feild.

This is a huge reason we dont enter PvP. With the advent of inventions, and with various exploits to allow early acquisition of accolade powers, PvP is *not* a level playing feild. And thats what we like. PvE'ers as a rule dont care so much about min/maxing, or fully optimising their build. Although we can, we are more interested in having a good concept and good fun. We enter a PvP zone we tend to be fighting min/maxed PvP'ers who, skill being equal, will beat us by simple virtue of being stuffed full of "teh ub3r" inventions.

How to get us in? - disable Inventions / Accolades. Give us a level playing feild. Or at least give us this option in the Arena.


3. PvP Builds

Like it or not, PvP builds are PvE builds are the antithesis of each other. There are lots of reasons for this, but perhaps the biggest is that PvE teams thrive on massive AoE damage/effects, which are rather rubbish in PvP.

I dont want to get into a huge debate about this, but PvE'ers build for PvE, and we can spot a PvP build a mile off. Its the kind of build we know is letting our PvE side down.

How to get us in: Probably the hardest one to reconcile. Rebalancing powers would certainly tempt us: Buff AoE powers against *players*, for instance - nerf aid self for instance. Decrease -fly powers, increase - jump powers. THere is a whole plethora of work to be done, but until it is, I cant see PvE builds entering PvP zones as anything other than cannon fodder. In otherwords, I cant see PvE builds entering at all.

A possibly more attractive PvP "mode" for us useless PvE'ers would be team PvP in close quaters - i.e. A more "PvE" like environment. Something like base raids for instance.

4. Attitude. Or - I dont really care much for "i pwnz joo".

Us PvE'ers are a casual lot. We like a bit of social chat, we like a slick but not perfect team, we drop in, drop out of things and have a laugh. We dont have a great burning desire to "pwnz" anyone, and dont in general get a kick out of humiliating or laughing at anyone.

In short, the ideal PvP for PvE players is with another PvE player. That when we can kick back and enjoy things. We dont even mind loosing in that freindly laisez fare attitude. The fact is, the psychological make up of PvE'ers and PvP'ers tends to be a little different.

Solution: Well, the more of us enter the zones/raids/arena, the more attractive it will become to us. But all the rampant aggression in the zones and the desperation to win is just a big no no for us.

Now this is something we should sort out ourselves. If more of us enter the zones the more of a pleasant time will be had. But, trashtalk, and the like, are a big turn of for us.


5. FoTM Builds, or be 1337 or be cannon fodder.

*yawn*. This is related to point 3 about builds and point 2 about level playing feilds. But many PvEe'rs beleive (I think usually fairly correctly) that PvP zones are filled with the "1337" min/maxed, FoTM builds. Ice/Energy blappers and tanks, Energy/Ninjistu Stalkers.. etc etc. I wont bore you with the details.

How to tempt us in:- Partially, by addressing points 2. and 3. Also, by recognizing that a Energy / Ninjistu stalker bragging about killing a PvE Sonic defender (for instance) is nothing at all to boast about. Guys, seek a challenge not an easy victory. Unfortunately, the perception is that PvP zones are stuffed full of predatory PvP'ers looking for us easy meat non min/maxed PvE players.

6. Finally - its not Immersive / theres no story.

Particularly for RP'ers, RP-lite'ers, and indeed many non RP PvE's we just get the feeling of "no story" to PvP. Its all about "I pwnz joo" not "I saved the world from the villanous [whatever]".

When do us PvE'ers venture into the zones? Well, look at the big epic events - you cant move for lag in the zones. We LOVE PvP then. It feels like an EVENT. The other time? our Bloody Bay runs. And I suspect not just because we "need" the occasional shivans... hopping around the zone collecting ore samples *feels* like a story.

Solution: Give us a story!. I cant see anything wrong with a co-op Zone fighting Rikti invaders and EACH OTHER!. Run more big epic fights!. RV is an example.



Anyway, feel free to add, disagree, or debate. But not flame.

And bear in mind this is a thread from a PVE PERSPECTIVE. And I reiterate. If you want us to enter PVP, its for US you have to cater for, not the dedicated PVP'ers allready out there.

I would like to see a bit more casual fun PvP for us, but Im telling you why I, and most people I play with, just dont "Dig it".

When you havent played all the other AT's to high level and therefore have nothing to compare it to.



When you scrapper is buffed by a Kinetics, EMpath, FF or Sonic defender. Who is making all the other team members god like too.

My question was more: SHOULD a brute tank? And not even "tank".

GOt in another scrape a week ago. 6 man team. 3 Brutes. None had taunt aura or taunt. ONe had no AoE attack. Two had one only (foot stomp) and this was at level 40.

Ultimately, of course, anyone builds there toon how they want. But I quit that team in, quite frankly, disgust. Im free not to team with them too.

I dont expect a brute to tank. I expect a brute to brute, and part of that is taking a reasonable share of the aggro.

There seems to be this attitude in the air of "If I dont get aggro then it dissapears magically into the ether". Wake up folks. IT HAS TO GO SOMEWHERE, and if its not on your brute (who is the most resiliant member of the team and actually gets a benefit from getting it) its gonna go on somebody else.

What I would really like is to know how to play a Stalker, effectively, in a mid to large sized team. Or even a small team come to that. Cant see any good advice about this.

I would like to play a team stalker some-day but all my efforts (and to a lesser extend efforts of freinds and stalkers I have teamed with) seem to result in an embaressment.

Aside from the obvious hide, AS nstiest enemy and get recall freind, any idea on this?