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Quote:That's no problem, but when they come from EVERYWHERE...you gotta jump around like a loon to aggro them all.Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Also get someone with high defense if you have them to go stand around the Ghouls, this was my job, I'd amble over to them, stand there, taunt aura would pick them up, they'd explode for no effect.
I was the lone tank on one of these and it was tough trying to protect my team from the AV's aggro, mobs and explody ghouls. Looking back, I had a good time and enjoyed the TF. -
Quote:Why is it one or the other? Why not have trials and have the ability to earn threads in normal content?Originally Posted by Furio
I disagree. Adding an end game that's just more of the same after 7 years would be pointless.
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Quote:What a terrible idea. A truly terrible, terrible idea.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think the aerial atack mechanic from Sutter and Apex will show up in one or more Trials - it's too much fun not to - and having 20+ players bouncing around to avoid it will be evn more chaotic that 8
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Usually I follow the leader on my team but if that fails then I am able to go out on my own. I can stay at range with Shadowfall and the Stealth IO running, and safely blast the crates without aggroing the mobs. That's how I do it. I am able to run by them without much issue using the same stealth powers above.
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Quote:Sorry, I should have been more explicit in my original post. When I meant ignored, I meant the main focus was the AVs and when I meant AoEs, I meant Judgments.Originally Posted by StratoNexus
So you were not wrong, you were lying. Understood. Next time I will call you a liar instead of saying you were mistaken. Thank you for clarifying the situation.
Your description above is NOTHING like your original description. You do know what the word ignored means right?
I cant speak for the other 23 players, but even when I unleashed my Judgment and AoEs, the main target was the AVs. I don't gain anything by lying and I'm not sure why you are being such a jerk.
The leader of the trial said, 'Ignore the adds, focus on AVs, we'll let AoEs and Judgments deal with adds." And that's what I did. -
Quote:Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I don't care what you think you experienced, I am telling you you are mistaken. The adds were not ignored as you believe, either they were taunted into the group, or people were turning off the AVs to kill them. I choose to believe you just missed smart people on your team handling the trouble, since your story does not make sense to how I have seen that encounter function countless times when the adds are actually ignored.Absolutely, positively, maybe.Quote:Originally Posted by Shadow State
So what you meant by "only focus on the AVs and the ambushes are ignored, only to be fodder for the AoEs," was that you didn't ignore them but specifically targeted them and used an AoE on them? That basically what Arcana and StratoNexus were say must have been happening.
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Quote:Incorrect. The adds stood at range and blasted. Myself, and many others, would run over and unleash our Judgments to take them out. I did this for the iXP and I'm assuming others followed suit.Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I don't care what you think you experienced, I am telling you you are mistaken. The adds were not ignored as you believe, either they were taunted into the group, or people were turning off the AVs to kill them. I choose to believe you just missed smart people on your team handling the trouble, since your story does not make sense to how I have seen that encounter function countless times when the adds are actually ignored.
You should learn to be a bit more tactful. Otherwise, you might earn a rep of being an *******.
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Quote:I don't remember replying to you with that post.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Which is why I specifically said the only way that tactic would work is if you pulled both AVs near or onto the spawn point. But that makes this fight not a typical "tank and spank" in yet another significant way, especially because pulling them forgoes a specific set of rewards. Or if you want to look at it this way, there's a strong pulling penalty.
So, Tank and Spank 4.0? -
I'm trying to figure out who MyLexiconIsHugeSon was originally. The posting style reminds me of Frosticus but I'm not certain. Either way, I'm anxiously awaiting his/her/its rebuttal to Arcana.
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Samuel Tow: making mountains out of molehills since June 2004.
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Quote:I play a Dark/Sonic Defender. I pay attention to green bars...mainly so I can see them hit red and get vengeance and my rez off.Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
If you say so.
The vickies tend to get within melee range, so they'd be hit by the AoE's. The 9cus tend to stay to far out for PBAoE's to hit them (unless they aggro on someone on the FAR SIDE of the group and wade into the mob to get closer... but that usually takes someone taking the time to target and attack them, something you swear isn't happening).
I know from my past experience, MANY of the people (particularly the tanks and melee archetypes) were more-or-less oblivious of the actions others were taking at the periphery. They may never notice the squishies at range getting hammered by those NPC's, or apparently realize that many of these higher-damage AT's are spending their valuable attacks on the NPC's to make up for the lack of situational awareness of the low-dps tankers.
It doesn't take MANY people to manage these NPC mobs, when done right. A tank's taunt (or squishie aoe attack-and-prayer/rez), then pull back to the opposite side of the AV. The NPCs will persue-- crossing into the PBAOE space of everyone fighting the AV's. That's how they meet that fate. Maybe you just weren't aware it was going on?
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Quote:I like when people tell me what I experience.Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Obviously, you are mischaracterizing this. People in your league are dealing with the adds, they are just doing so more efficiently than in the past. The adds do not just run into melee with the AVs, even when taunted and therefore in order to kill them you have to specifically stop targeting the AV and target the adds. Either you are unaware of people doing this for your league or you are overlooking that fact.
We ignore the adds. They pulled both AVs to the courts, the adds followed and are mopped up accordingly. Got it? -
Yes, I was wrong.
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Quote:I disagree. Trials still attempt to beat them as quickly as possible but with one catch, kill them within 10s of each other. The speed is still there for sure.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
All defeat objectives can be characterized that way: take their damage and deal damage to kill them.
Except in this case, the objective is not to defeat them as quickly as possible but to synchronize your efforts with another team.
Going to have to disagree here as well. I've been on numerous BAFs where we only focus on the AVs and the ambushes are ignored, only to be fodder for the AoEs. I will admit that all but 2 of these BAF examples have come in the past few days. I assume this is due to more players earning their level shifts, judgment and lore abilities.Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Also, the term "tank and spank" has connotations, particularly that both tasks are trivial and achievable through brute force. If you attempt to blindly tank Siege while 9CUs keep coming inbound, hoping random AoE damage will just vaporize them automatically, you'll discover its impossible to tank that encounter in that fashion. Siege will get you, or the 9CUs will get you, no matter how strong you are, if you let them have a free shot at you. In the standard content, people generally focus on the AV knowing they can bring it down fast and knowing any reinforcements the AV calls will pale in comparison and be no threat: if you can tank the AV, its minions are usually not significant. Not in BAF.
I agree with the underlying principal about innovation, and, to be honest, I had forgotten about the sequestration mechanic. So, you are right in that this trial, BAF, offers more than the traditional Tank and Spank.Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Also: sequestration.
Combat is combat: kill them before they kill you. But if you reduce all of combat to those terms and claim its all the same, you've eliminated the possibility for discussing MMOs in an interesting fashion, or at least all combat in MMOs.
So when you say "I wouldn't wave this sort of thing around as evidence of some new or innovative mechanic" I would. For this game these encounters are new and innovative game play mechanics. Sure, they aren't innovative in the sense that the combat is no longer even recognizable as MMO combat any more, but neither the devs nor I think most of the players wanted an unrecognizable encounter. They wanted innovation within the framework of the recognizable game and within that framework we can judge whether something is new and innovative or reused, and to what degree - because innovation is usually a matter of degrees, not absolutes.
Sooooo, Tank and Spank 3.0?
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Not a very interesting article and I was hoping for a bit of information about coming attractions.
I love the first comment on the article is from Venture. If nothing else, then at least Venture is consistent in his feedback. -
Quote:Hmmm, that seems awful specific to be just a random idea for the new trial.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Talking of the Olympian Guard and the lava lair on the Maria Jenkins arc, I think that while Tyrant might wear that armor at first on the Trial we fight him on, he might transform in some way later on, by opening himself up completely to the power of the Well.
Like at first we might fight at the Magisterium, defeating mobs until Tyrant come sout of his tower to face us - after we beat him down, he uses a portal in the tower to retreat to his lava lair, which is linked to the Well, according to the MJ arc, and then we have to follow him there, just in time for a cutscene where he lets the Well totally take him over, transforming him into a more cosmic form.
He might also have all his Praetors with him, plus reinforcement spawns of Olympian Guards. -
Quote:Oh, so we know the exact terms for participation that creates the Table Rewards based on that Dev response?Originally Posted by rsclark
How do you get "vaguely" out of a quote where it is plainly and unambiguously stated that it is participation based? Do you know what words mean?
Wait, we don't know the exact terms? K. -
Quote:No thanks. I see no reason why I need to do the work of developers when I'm not being paid to be a developer. Instead, I will continue to provide feedback about a game I pay to play. Cool?Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Okay, come up with an AV fight that is not a tank and spank in any way, shape or form, and NOT incredibly frustrating to anyone trying it for the first time.
By the way, I never stated the Tank and Spank(s) were bad, and I've stated dozens of times that I really enjoy the trials. I just clarified the "Kill two Avs within 10s of each" mechanic is not some grand innovation but just another form of Tank and Spank. And there's nothing wrong with that. -
Quote:I agree as well. I like the newer Trials quite a bit. Lots of fun. The only exception is the laggy warehouses in Lambda and the Prisoner Escape lagfest in the BAF.Originally Posted by EvilGeko
You're correct, but really we've gotten tons of complaints about just this tip toe out of of the steamroll express. The devs could really make this interesting, but then it wouldn't be as accessible. I'm sure later raids will have different mechanics, but I'm still happy that we don't have the snooze inducing bags of HP of yesteryear.
If I feel the need to return to the good ole Tank and Spank 1.0, then I'll just run the ITF, STF or LRSF. -
Quote:Other than a vaguely quoted passage from a Dev, I have yet to see any evidence that points to the participation being the main factor in determining the rewards. Feel free to point me to the evidence.Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Sorry man, you are behind the times. Its random by heavily weighted by participaiton.
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Quote:I bet you could make something similar with Mission Architect.Originally Posted by Kinrad
Oh heck yes, can we do this NOW!?!!?
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Quote:Right, it's Tank and Spank 2.0.Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
It's a better form of it. You have to pay attention to what you're doing or you'll never get them both down. It's taken the mindless part of fighting one AV, or splitting a pair or group of them up so you can thin the herd one at a time out of the equation.
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Quote:Can't say my experience mimics this.Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I'm not sure any pets count. I'm thinking it's exactly what I said upthread. Hit a lot of stuff, get good rewards.
I went from blasting more to debuffing/healing more on my Dark/Sonic defender and ended up with a VR and R. Then I ran it twice more and (doing the same thing) got two uncommons.
I then switched to my Fire/SD/Pyre scrapper and ran the trials for awhile. Keep in mind this scrapper farms +2/x8 all day so hitting mobs is his specialty. I ran enough trials to get Judgment at 84% and Interface to 23%. Not. One. Rare. Or. Very. Rare. Drop. -
Quote:This is just a form of tank and spank. I wouldn't wave this sort of thing around as evidence of some new or innovative mechanic.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Yep, those would be the mechanics I was talking about. Especially the downing of multiple AVs at once. If you're going for the Gotta Keep Em Separated badge (required to master it) you have to beat both AVs within 10 seconds....on opposite sides of the map.
Some of the others I agree with. -
Quote:I can't say one way or another but I have no reason to believe they are anything but random at this point. I will gladly revise my view based on any submitted evidence.Originally Posted by Enyalios
It is NOT purely random. I'm thinking of collecting data through an experiment to reverse engineer their reward algorithm. But I assure you it is not purely or even significantly random.