ClawsandEffect
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Posts
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Joined
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Fine.
My hypothetical, exactly 100 damage attack would deal EXACTLY 523.2 damage on a Tanker if you count Bruising. What a huge difference it made.
You still have not explained how it is fair for a Tanker to deal more damage than all of these ATs:
Corruptors: 375
Defenders: 220
Controllers: 220
Dominators: 500
Epic ATs (all 4): 400
Mastermind: 220 (pets make the real number much higher)
.....while having much better survivability than all of them.
You're only 5% lower than BLASTER DAMAGE. I will let that sink in for a second. You are seriously proposing that the toughest thing in the game have a maximum damage potential that is only 5% lower than the squishiest.
Also, since this is using YOUR rules, as in "everyone is at their caps to everything all the time", you make Defender primaries, and Corruptor, Controller, and Mastermind secondaries completely useless. What good are buffs if everyone on the team is capped to everything already? What good are debuffs if nothing can hit you? The only debuff that would be worth anything is -resistance.
Look at the numbers for those ATs' damage output again. When everyone is capped and half of those characters' abilities are useless, all they have to bring to the table is that amount of damage.
And you think it is FAIR and BALANCED for a Tanker to out-damage the majority of them, while shrugging off damage that will one-shot all of them? Unbelievable.
Also, since Tanker base values are so much higher, they need less help than anyone else to reach their survivability peak.
All the above points are why I am in favor of Brute maximum potential being reduced.
And the most unbelievable thing is: You actually believe that is a perfectly sane and reasonable request.
There's already 1 broken AT in the game....why do you want there to be 2? Wouldn't it make more sense to fix the one that's broken instead of breaking another one? (Most reasonable people would answer "yes" here, but I know you're not going to) -
Your proposal, which is an increase of the Tanker damage cap to 545% with no other changes, correct?
Have you even looked at the effect that is going to have on every OTHER AT? Not just melee ATs, the others as well.
Using a theoretical attack that deals 100 damage as a comparison point, and a Tanker cap of 550% to make the math easier:
Tanker Damage: 528 (With Bruising)
Brute Damage: 581.25
Scrapper Damage: 590.625 (average with Criticals)
Stalker Damage: 550 (average with Criticals, but control over when you crit puts the real number higher, more like 600-625)
The others:
Blasters: 562.5
Corruptors: 375
Defenders: 220
Controllers: 220
Dominators: 500
Epic ATs (all 4): 400
Mastermind: 220 (pets make the real number much higher)
Your new cap would put Tankers at around 90% of Scrapper damage, while Scrappers still only have 75% of Tanker survivability. Not fair in my opinion.
It puts them just about even with Brutes, at 10% away from each other in each category.
Now, look at the rest of the ATs. Your proposed Tanker cap would put Tanker damage higher than every one of them except Blasters. Do I really need to run the numbers to show a survivability gap there? The only squishy AT that even comes close is Dominators.
You keep talking about Scrappers and Brutes surviving too well for the damage they do? If you got your way, Tankers would be more broken than either of them in survivability to damage ratio. And INCREDIBLY broken compared to the other 10 ATs.
Tell me, do you REALLY think it would be fair for Tankers to out-damage all those other ATs, and survive so much better at the same time? -
Quote:Because +8 level shifts are only available in significantly less than 1% of the game?Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Consider this currently theoretical, yet entirely possible, situation:
A Tanker, a Scrapper and a Brute, each with +8 level shifts. All of them will be functionally immortal in 98% of the content that's currently in the game. Yet the Brute and Scrapper will still be putting out way more damage than the Tanker. So how is that fair?
Do you even realize how ridiculous it sounds when you justify changing something that affects the entire game because of a situation that you have to
A) Be a VIP
B) Have both Lore and Destiny unlocked
and
C) Be currently involved in a Magisterium Trial
....before the possibility of that circumstance happening even exists?
Yes, you would survive 98% of the game's content. But that circumstance only occurs during .01% of the game's content.
Look at the numbers I gave you. At 525 and 486 damage on the power given, a Tanker would be OVER 90% of the Brute's damage. Seriously, the math is simple. Subtract 52.5 from 525, the resulting number is 90% of Brute damage. That number is 472.
And a Tanker dealing more than 90% of Brute damage while the Brute's survivability has been reduced isn't good enough for you?!?
If you won't accept dealing more than 90% of Brute damage, while the brute is less than 90% as survivable, it is clear that you want nothing less than to be the most powerful thing in the game.
Why don't you just admit already that you want Tankers to be far and away the best AT in the game? It is clear that you aren't the slightest bit interested in balance. -
Delving a little deeper and taking Criticals into account for Scrappers and Stalkers, the average damage over 20 attacks for each AT would be:
Scrapper: 590.6 (at a base Critical chance of 5%, one attack will crit)
Stalker: 550 (at a base Critical chance of 10%, two attacks will crit)
Brute: 525
Tanker: 486
But, since a Stalker player has a great deal more control over when they Critcal than a Scrapper player does, the average damage over 20 attacks will be much higher for a Stalker in actual gameplay. Probably in the 700-ish range, but I can't really average out something that is entirely dependent on an individual player's choice.
Given that, perhaps Brutes should be at 720% damage cap. That would make the difference between Scrapper and Brute 50.6 damage, and the difference between Brute and Tanker 54 damage. -
Looking at the caps and scalars of all 4 melee ATs, here is what I would do:
1) Increase Scrapper and Stalker resistance cap to 80%. This would put Scrappers at somewhat less than 80% of Tanker survivability.
2) Increase Tanker damage scalar to .9, which would put them at exactly 80% of Scrapper damage, and would have nearly the same net result as Johnny's proposed 545% damage cap. It would also help Tankers who are not sitting at their damage cap consistently. Raising their damage cap to 450% from their current 400% would not be particularly unbalancing.
3)Adjust Brutes accordingly. I would start by reducing their resistance cap to 85%, and their damage cap to 700%.
Given the same attack with a base damage of 100, at those damage caps a Scrapper would deal 562.5 with that attack, a Brute 525, and a Tanker 486 (to a Bruised target). That's a 37.5 point difference between Scrapper and Brute, and a 39 point difference between Brute and Tanker. Stalkers would come in at 500 damage with that attack, but their ability to land a crit when they want to more than evens the score, and actually puts them on top (because a Stalker player will leverage things to deal 1000 damage with that attack)
With the Scrapper and Stalker resistance cap increase to 80%, and the Brute decrease to 85%, it would put their survivability in reverse order, by just about the same margin of difference between them. Stalkers don't really need much, but it wouldn't be fair to increase Scrapper resistance without giving them the same.
Voila. Everyone but Brutes win, and Brutes just don't get to be overpowered compared to their melee brethren anymore. I would call that balancing rather than nerfing. It would put Brutes exactly between Scrappers and Tankers, where they are allegedly supposed to be anyway.
The end result would be that this:
Quote:....would actually be true.Survivability
Stalker->Scrapper->Brute->Tanker
Damage
Tanker->Brute->Scrapper->Stalker
If that happened, could we quit all this damn bickering about it? Because, to be honest, it's getting REALLY old. -
Also, from the wiki on Godwin's law:
Quote:I cite that a Nazi comparison in this case was appropriate.The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering known mainstays of Nazi Germany such as genocide, eugenics or racial superiority, nor, more debatably, to a discussion of other totalitarian regimes or ideologies, since a Nazi comparison in those circumstances may be appropriate
I actually had to look that up, as I was not familiar with that particular "law".
Perhaps the way I made the reference was questionable, but he was the first generally agreed upon terrible person in a position of power I thought of that wouldn't have been lost on a lot of people. I could have mentioned Raj Ahten, but since he was a character in a book, very few people would have gotten the reference. (Incidentally, Raj Ahten, from David Farland's The Runelords would have been a better reference, as he and Tryrant are VERY similar. But the odds of anyone but me understanding that were slim) -
Quote:Help! Help! I'm being repressed!Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
Come see the violence inherent in the system!
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If the Build Workshop were made All Access, it might be useful for Free and Premium players to come to for advice on their characters, since they can't post in the AT sections.
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Quote:You're right. That choice is made for them.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
But permanently reduce anything on Tankers for more damage? No way. Because Brutes don't have to make that choice.
Unless you're trying to say that the larger base values Tankers get have nothing to do with their survivability advantage.
Brutes get the same base values as Scrappers and Stalkers. In the absence of outside help via teammates or Incarnate powers, they are only slightly tougher than Scrappers, due to having higher base HP.
You conveniently ignore the higher base values Tankers have for survivability-related powers every time this discussion comes up.
The devs cannot guarantee that a Brute or a Tanker will always have a teammate handy to buff them. They CAN guarantee that they will spend part of that time alone.
If you really want to compare Tanker and Brute performance, compare a Tanker and a Brute that are totally alone. No outside buffs from teammates, no Incarnate powers. The Tanker will outlive the Brute every single time.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Saying that Tankers need more damage because a Brute can reach the same survivability when buffed by a Thermal Radiation or Sonic Resonance teammate is absurd. What level of survivability can that Brute reach by himself?
I've compared the two side by side using the same sets. With no outside buffs, Tanker resistance is a full 20% higher than Brute resistance in the majority of cases. The only exceptions there are Electric Armor and Fiery Aura, where both ATs can reach 90% to one damage type. An Invulnerability Brute is capable of reaching 90% to S/L damage, but he has to devote the majority of his IO slotting toward that goal, which gimps quite a few other aspects of the build, and locks them into one particular Alpha slot. They can't do it at all until they get Alpha either.
Saying that Brutes give up nothing is a flat out lie. They don't get the base values Tankers get, and that makes them less survivable by default.
Honestly, I would really like to see some datamining that shows exactly how frequently any Brute reaches the survivability potential you keep saying is so unfair. I would be willing to bet it is less than 1% of that character's existence.
I would also like to see datamining that shows how frequently any Tanker is sitting at his damage cap. I would be equally willing to bet that the percentage of time spent is about the same. There is only 1 build I can think of that can do it by himself, and that would be the Shield/SS build you claimed you did it on (I'm not doubting your claim, but I didn't see it with my own eyes, and I don't report hearsay as fact. I believe it is possible though)
I would also be willing to bet the only reason you could reach the recharge necessary to pull that feat off is because a Shield Defense Tanker needs next to no IO help to reach the soft-cap. And you say Brutes give up nothing? Shield and SR Brutes don't get the ability to reach the soft-cap on SOs and power choices alone like Tankers do. My DA/Staff Tanker will hit 90% to 4 different damage types, all by his lonesome. The Staff/DA Brute that can make the same claim will never exist.
Brutes give up more than you're willing to admit. -
And for the record, I don't really have anything against Jack Emmert. I am not, in any way, drawing a comparison between Tyrant and Jack.
Jack has a talent for initial game design, he just really sucks at running an MMO after it goes live. This game would not exist if not for him, and ironically, if he had remained in charge it would likely not exist now. -
Quote:Do you think Hitler got a raw deal too?Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
is a character named Tyrant
* which those who do not know history think means bad ruler whereas it really just means one came to power not in the usual way and was the term for many great leaders in history
* the character has the noble goal of wanting to make a paradise for everyone
* is forced to compromise because reality prevents a true paradise
* has his work ruined by the power hungry and traitorous people who work for him
* faces a rebellion of those for whom he worked so hard to create a paradise, and who claim to be wanting to make things better for everyone, but are really more ruthless, power hungry, and vicious than he is
* his downfall comes from trying to spread his vision to a new world and is rejected
Cole's definition of paradise is a world in which everyone does as he says without ever questioning him. He wants to rule a society that literally sees him as their god. He didn't go after Primal Earth because he wanted to "spread his vision" he went after it because he was afraid of what would happen if his subjects saw what freedom looked like and decided they wanted that too. He was right on that part of it.
Sorry dude, but "benevolent but misunderstood" rulers don't do things like order psychotic psychics to brainwash the population, and mass market a beverage designed to make that brainwashing easier. And that's just one example. Play through Praetoria again, and run some Incarnate trials. After you do, come back and tell us if you still believe Cole was doing all that because he loved the people and wanted them to be safe.
It is true that no greater evil is ever committed than one committed in the belief that it is righteous.
Tyrant is every bit the modern definition of the word, and frankly, the fact that you are painting him as a misunderstood good guy here, in apparent seriousness, makes me somewhat question whether you are on medication and forgot to take it today. -
Blasters have lack of damage listed as a problem?!
Damage is not what Blasters need help with, not by a long shot. -
Quote:Originally Posted by IxIFORBIDDENIxI
I've just started playing CoH0.oQuote:
I have no problem getting expensive enhancements or "purple" enhancements.
You JUST started playing and can afford that stuff already?
Unless your boyfriend is hooking you up with all the funds you need, I'd just like to say: RMT sites are bad. They will steal and sell your credit card info on the black market, among other unsavory activities. -
Yep.
I avoid this forum most of the time for several of the reasons stated.
I can give a lot of useful advice in building Scrappers and Tanks (and by extension Brutes and Stalkers), but I'm useless in building Controllers and my Defender knowledge is hit and miss.
I don't have much time to post, since I usually do so while I'm at work. I'd rather go to the AT forums and help someone with their build than come here and dig through piles of builds in search of someone to help. -
Quote:I'm with Rangle on this one. Surprisingly enough.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Howzabout: Any Tanker that attacks a Bruised target (including the one that Bruised it) has additional [Doublehit]-style damage added to their attacks on that target.
This allows a benefit of Bruising to "stack" (but not multiply) with additional Tankers and without becoming an out of control multiplier for them the rest or the team.
If it could be balanced so it isn't equivalent to Critical damage on any Bruised target (because that WOULD be OP), I could get on board with something like this.
And by "isn't equivalent to Critical damage" I mean it should not just do double damage on the Bruised target. And no, that isn't because I want Scrappers to stay ahead, it's because being able to land a Critical KO Blow at will would be overpowered as hell, and even you would have to admit it. -
Okay, you made some pretty crucial mistakes. I'll lay them out for you.
1) You underslotted all the powers that give you defense. Heightened Senses, Weave, and Indomitable Will all need more slots than you gave them.
2) You didn't slot High Pain Tolerance for Healing. That poer increases your max HP, and is very important for a Willpower anything.
3) You overslotted Physical Perfection. It does NOT need to be 6 slotted. I also would not put Gaussian's in Focused Accuracy.
4) You slotted sets that give positional defense bonuses at 6 slots. Willpower has typed defenses already built into it. What that does it leaves you with mediocre defense to typed and positional, instead of the very good typed defense you should have.
The game only uses whichever defense is higher, and completely ignores the other. So if you are attacked with something flagged Lethal and Ranged, and have 45% lethal defense and 32% ranged defense, the game will use the lethal defense and ignore the ranged.
5) You took Stealth and apparently plan to run it for defense. Bad idea, it loses half of its defense when its stealth is suppressed (which happens whenever you attack)
6) You overslotted Strength of Will. I would use that to put your defense uniques in, instead of Tough. No matter what you slot in it or how much global recharge you have, you will never speed up Strength of Will by even one second.
I fixed some of your problems, and gave you a pretty good template. You can adjust it for personal taste if you like, but it should be pretty solid as it stands.
Here's my build:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.954
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Willpower
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Smite -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46)
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(5), Numna-Heal/Rchg(7), Aegis-ResDam(7), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(9), Aegis-EndRdx/Rchg(9)
Level 2: Mind Over Body -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(11), RctvArm-ResDam(11), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(13)
Level 4: Shadow Maul -- SScrappersS-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SScrappersS-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), SScrappersS-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), Erad-Dmg(15), Erad-Acc/Rchg(17), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17)
Level 6: Fast Healing -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(19), Numna-Heal/Rchg(19)
Level 8: Siphon Life -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(23), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(23), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Nictus-Acc/Heal(25), Nictus-Heal(27)
Level 10: Indomitable Will -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(27), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(29)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(29)
Level 14: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Rise to the Challenge -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(31), Numna-Heal/Rchg(31)
Level 18: Dark Consumption -- Erad-Acc/Rchg(A), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(31), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg(33), C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg(48), C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg(50)
Level 20: Quick Recovery -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(33), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(34), P'Shift-End%(36)
Level 22: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(34), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 24: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(36), LkGmblr-Def(36)
Level 26: Soul Drain -- SScrappersS-Acc/Dmg(A), SScrappersS-Dmg/Rchg(37), SScrappersS-Rchg/+Crit(37), Erad-Acc/Rchg(37), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(39), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39)
Level 28: Heightened Senses -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(39), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(40)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(40), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(40)
Level 32: Midnight Grasp -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(42), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(42), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Empty(43), Empty(43)
Level 35: Super Jump -- Empty(A)
Level 38: Strength of Will -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GA-3defTpProc(43)
Level 41: Focused Accuracy -- Rec'dRet-ToHit(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(45), EndRdx-I(45)
Level 44: Physical Perfection -- RgnTis-Regen+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(45), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(46), Numna-Heal(50)
Level 47: Tactics -- Rec'dRet-ToHit(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(48), Rec'dRet-Pcptn(48)
Level 49: Resurgence -- Empty(A), Empty(50)
------------
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(46)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(A), P'Shift-EndMod(21), P'Shift-End%(21)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
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Quote:I did mention Hibernate though.Originally Posted by Moonlighter
What he didn't mention is you'll want Phase Shift.
Really, one or the other will be fine. You don't need both. Unless you fight a lot of people who like to phase, in which case one of the temp phase powers will usually suffice. -
Quote:I don't play on Freedom, but if you ever find yourself on Pinnacle, look me up.Originally Posted by trigirl
Thank you everyone for the info. I made a character on Freedom named Vernixia if anyone wants to give me some tips.
My global is @Claws and Effect.
If you end up on my server, just ask about me in Help or LFG. If I'm on I'll answer you for sure. If I'm not, someone who knows me will probably let me know you were looking.
Have fun with the game! -
I heartily recommend running the Hollows arcs at least once.
I would wait until you're about level 10 to start them, but they are some of the better written arcs out of the "legacy" content. (It's all brand new to you, but the Hollows arcs have been there for a long time, and were revamped a couple years ago)
The Faultline arcs are fun too, you can start those at level 15. Unless I'm mistaken, Jim Tremblor is one of the contacts you can teleport to. If you can't, Faultline is to the South of Skyway City (the train doesn't go there, you have to walk through the gate)
Striga Isle and Croatoa are cool too. They are level 20 and 25 respectively. Additionally, at level 20, you get 3 or 4 new contacts that give you very cool, nicely written arcs.
There's a lot to do in the game, but the game doesn't hold your hand and guide you through it. It lets you choose your own path through things the vast majority of the time.
Also, start keeping an eye out for people forming Task Forces. Most of them are pretty fun, and the 6 "signature" Task Forces will grant you a permanent +5% HP when you complete all 6. -
Possibly.
I think Praetorian Infernia is more likely though. -
Johnny, I actually DO agree with you on a point you keep making:
It is not fair or balanced that Brutes can approach Tanker survivability while dealing far more damage.
We're never going to agree on which AT is the problem, though.
I've made my counterpoint often enough that I'm not going to bother with it again. I just wanted to point out that I do agree with you on at least one point.
One thing I could support being done for Tankers is have the endurance cost lowered on some of their attacks, so at least their damage per endurance spent is comparable. Tankers deal roughly 75% of Scrapper damage, so reducing the end cost of their attacks accordingly would be fair I think. -
Your MA/WP build there would actually be pretty solid against another melee character.
A well-played ranged character will still tear you a new one though. Lack of ranged ability is going to hurt you there. You can use Confront to reduce their range, but unless you can catch them on the ground CAK isn't going to help you a whole lot.
You're going to have to joust any ranged opponents you fight (queue an attack and jump past them), so your odds of landing a follow up attack after CAK are going to be slim (you're going to have to joust them again, and CAK's immobilize doesn't last very long in PvP) -
Quote:I agree.Originally Posted by Airhammer
Its gonna get nerfed I think..
But I think it is more likely that some of the powers it is overpowered in will be tweaked.
It's not a big deal in, say, Claws Shockwave. Entirely different story in Controller Bonfire.
I suspect they will tweak Bonfire before they nerf the IO, because it is the way Bonfire works that makes the IO overpowered, rather than the reverse.
A 50% chance for KB instead of the current 100% chance would be the most likely change I think. -
Quote:Was going to turn those off anyway.Originally Posted by Neuronia
Claws, if you form a Duel Ladder make sure you turn off Healing Decay and Travel Suppression in Arena. You might also expect people from other servers to show up on Pinn if it's adverted, just saying.
I haven't decided if I'm going to form it or not. My interest in PvP comes and goes in spurts. I like it, but not to the point that it's a major reason to play the game. I don't really want to start something only to lose interest in it 2 weeks later and leave it disorganized or disbanded when I do.
Still kicking it around. Also need to get my computer fixed before I can consider doing anything at all..... -
Quote:Brute HP cap is 3212. Anything with a Dull Pain clone can reach it with relative ease. Very difficult for anything else to reach it by itelf though.Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
I think with stacked Dull Pain (and +max hp accolades) he has a total of 3200 or so HP....pretty nice
