Clan_Jericho

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Ok, quick run down:

The AV / Player bonus only applies if your Fury is 80% or more. That's the point where diminishing returns sets in, and this allows you to get to max rage easier. That's not exactly what we wanted, nor is it exactly what you folks were told. I'm sorry for that. I'm uncertain at this time what can be done to improve how this works, but I'll be exploring possibilities.

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I was alot happier with "Its broke"

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rofl

~Gabriel

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Right now at the higher levels my toon feels almost useless on large teams. I draw more aggro with the AoEs then I can handle, so either I stick to single target attacks that do VERY little damage or I just hope not to die in every fight. Most things die so fast in large groups that the debuffs are almost worthless, and you end up being relegated to a glue and oil machine.

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I always think it's hilarious how Manticore actually does stuff in the comic-books. Every time I see him fire a "stunner arrow" into a group of enemies I think "stupid noob, a blaster's gonna hafta come along after you and nuke all those mobs you held."



And what was with Manticore taking out Infernal, Mynx, Ms. Liberty, and Swan all in one shot? Are they f***ing mocking us? A TA/Archery defender can't kill a single regen scrapper...ever! much less a whole group of people with one shot.

It just cracks me up that this game deviates from comic-book superheroism so much that the comic that's based on it doesn't even look like it takes place in the same world.

~Gabriel

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Don't know if this is I7 or before but...Guantlet will work in PvP soon.

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I could kiss you.

~Gabriel

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Siphon speed and Fulcrum shift putting anyone at a damage cap requires a lot of targets to hit simultaneously. The odds are against such a perfect environment to provide enough bad guys to achieve so many hits without oh, dying from all their damage "Indefinitely" is a big exaggeration due to that factor. "for a while when factors coincide" is a lot closer.

In large teams I find it hard to even get Fulcrum shift off versus each spawn of bad guys before the blasters and scrappers have already killed most of em. I'm lucky if the melee folks get 4 buffs from each Fulcrum Shift on average. That is far from keeping me at max damage.

Solo it'd be even harder as I'd have to somehow herd up three or four spawns to fulcrum shift from if I wanted to max my damage.

Not only that but blaster damage max is 5 x 100% = 500% whereas defender max damage is 4 x 66% = 264% -- not much more than half. And blasters can situationally maintain their damage near that cap with Defiance, which is only a little harder to do than to keep 10+ live mobs in Fulcrum-shifting range ... if that.

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I understand what you're saying, but your math is a bit off. A defender's damage cap is 4.00. With 3 dam SOs he'll be at 1.95. The personal boost (the one generated by the kineticist when FS goes off) is double what the others are worth. So that's 0.5 for yourself and 0.25 for every enemy. At that rate it only takes 6 enemies to cap a defender's damage via FS - and that's a single activation. If you have three enemies in two groups and two activations then you're actually over the cap by a fair amount. So it's quite easy to keep yourself capped in a solo mission.

Also, defiance is generally considered worthless. If you have an easy time as a level 30+ blaster keeping your damage perpetually capped via Defiance then you are very skilled indeed. If you want the general opinion about Defiance's usefulness, see the Blaster forum. For my own part: I pretend it doesn't even exist.

~Gabriel

[Edit: Even if you're taking it easy and not pushing things, using FS on a single group of three enemies will net you 1.95 + 0.50 + 0.75 = 3.2. Which still isn't very far from the damage cap. Considering that this is absolutely the very least you'll get out of Fulcrum Shift (assuming you're not totally incompetent)...]

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No, it's words like sustain and indefinitely that bring in the time element. Words YOU are using, not me.

And I think you must assume your audience is stupid if you think they won't see though such transparent attempts to pretend that you were not drawing a comparison of damage over time when you used such words.

Simply speaking, you are making it entirely clear that you are not interested in any kind of realistic/balanced analysis of a kin/sonic to a blaster, and have gone so far to attack the legitimacy of DoT analysis, tell people to go make another threads, and now a none-too-veiled implication that people who don't agree with you are stupid. All in reaciton to people who insist on giving a fuller picture of how the two stack up.

That's a clear sign of a person with an agenda as opposed to someone who wishes to seek truth.

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I'll say this just once more, and then I'm done.

Sustain. The same level. Of damage. Per hit.

I.E. The blaster boosts himself with Aim and Build-Up. He goes from 1.95 to 1.95 + 1.00 + 62.5. The kineticist, on the other hand, does not have downtime. The duration of Fulcrum Shift is 45 seconds, while with proper slotting and Siphon Speed (usually stacked) several FSs can go off in that time. Meaning that the kineticist can operate at his damage cap indefinitely.

Not addressing you specifically, Pil, but I don't understand how people can assume that I was deliberately being misleading. Aside from being rude, it doesn't reflect what I was saying.

~Gabriel

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Because it looks like your posts are attempting to be deceptive?

You still haven't answered what the folks are fighting, the slotting of various powers, et cetera.

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It looks like I was trying to be deceptive about what? My numbers and my analyses are all totally consistent to what I was talking about. The fact that you want a different sort of analysis is completely not my problem.

I specified that they were both 3-slotted for damage, which even the most cursory glance at my calculations would make obvious. Any numbers person knows what 1.95 means in regards to CoH. Later, I mentioned that I assumed capped accuracy, since everyone and their dog caps accuracy at the later levels. Since I wasn't talking about projected attack chains, I said nothing whatsoever about slotting recharge or endred.

Honestly, this is ridiculous.

~Gabriel

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You compared more than damage scalars, you spoke of sustained damage, noting that a Kineticist could sustain his max damage and the blaster could do it only when BU and AIM are up. That's a damage over time analysis, that you clearly indicated was in the favor of KIN.

Later, you claimed not to be looking at damage over time.

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When you read the word damage, you think damage over time. That's fine, but that's not what I meant by it. When I compared sustainability, I said that the kinetics could maintain his damage indefinitely in comparison to the blaster, who could only keep his numbers that high while both Build-Up and Aim were active. Since all of my numbers only accounted for adjustments to damage-per-hit, I thought it would be painfully obvious what I was talking about. I don't assume my audience is stupid.

Frankly, you're reading what you want to read, not what I wrote. Start off with the assumption that I said exactly what I intended to, and you'll be on the right track.

~Gabriel

Which is true. You will be sustaining the same damage-per-hit that a blaster can only achieve via Build-Up and Aim.

Why is this so difficult?

~Gabriel

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Electric Blast provides sub-par single-target and AoE damage compared to even Energy Blast.

And I've said it once before, so I'll say it once again : Do you honestly believe that Sonic Blasters do 112.5-125% of the damage done by other blasters?

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I'm not trying to be mean, but you're totally ignoring what I'm saying in every other post. I was comparing damage scalars...which is to say, damage-per-hit, not damage over time. Damage over time is so fluid and difficult to discuss mathematically with any relevancy to the actual performance of any AT or powerset as a whole that I wouldn't even bother with it.

We could discuss maximum outputs, of course, but considering the fact that most players don't know any numbers in-game, why bother? The situations I'm discussing with regard to kinetics and sonics are likely to occur with even the most casual gameplay. Stacking two Siphon Powers can be done by level 6 (once you get Siphon Speed), and Fulcrum Shifts tend to carry over from one group to the next, making it easy to cap your own damage.

Everyone seems to be trying to turn what I said into something I didn't. I was very specific about the parameters involved. If you want to create a thread addressing a different aspect of kinetics/sonics defender, be my guest, but don't try to call me to task for failing to do something I wasn't attempting.

~Gabriel

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I did not use Sonic blasters for comparison, this is true.

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You should. The BI of the Sonic attacks are lower than the rest of the primaries and it is also lacking in the AoE department. I actually think storm/sonic will out damage a kin/sonic becuase of the pets and lots of -def but i haven't ran any numbers. Regardless, kin/sonic is very far from being uber and surpressing blasters in damage.

Edit: Regarding your last post - There was one main reason why kin/ was doing good damage pre ED that would make blasters envy. With FS you could slot your nuke with all recharge and get about the same damage twice as fast as a blaster. It was good enough to take +2s.

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Yeah, storm/sonic should do well for itself. In much the same manner that a fire/sonic controller does.

Regardless, you and many other people seem to have misinterpreted what I was about. I didn't use sonic blasters as an example because their damage is not standard for blasters - electric is. Electric blasters have no modifiers that might influence their overall damage scale, and since my goal was to compare kin/sonic with an imaginary "average" blaster, electric was more suitable.

~Gabriel

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Perhaps I missed it, but did you account for animation csting times? Transfusion, transference, siphon speed/power and fulcrum shift have decent animation times, combined with the fact that they need to eb reapplied slows down your overall attack chain. Also, what level spawns are we fighting? How often are we missing? A missed buff can have a huge impact on the damage chain.

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I was not attempting a damage-over-time comparison. My calculations, you will no doubt have noticed, only account for damage-per-hit. Truth be told, the actual damage potential of a blaster varies greatly depending upon the build and the skill of the player, and much the same (though to a lesser degree) the damage of a defender. Any comparison of actual DPS will include projected attack chains, which is so subjective that it renders any conclusion inapplicable to most cases.

The purpose of this thread was to point out that there was still an offender who could attain blaster-level damage - which the devs have deliberately tried to prevent happening any more. Playing a kin/sonic is a hint of what the game was like pre-I5, so I thought I'd encourage as many people as possible to get their last taste before the devs nerf it. And if they don't nerf it, all the better.

~Gabriel

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Heh..... ask any fire/fire blaster. you'd be suprised what you can do without a secondary.

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Fire/ is good enough to stand on its own.

~Gabriel

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1) How does a "pre-18 claws vs. broadsword" argument help? I'm honestly mystified. Is this "Broadsword is throwing in Parry for safety?" Or "Claws has two of the worst attacks in the game, possibly in the world, before level 18 and is getting a complete restructure in I7?" Go ahead. Spell it out for me.

2) "Blasters know this intuitively"- have you READ the Blaster boards? They've been screaming for nearly two years that their secondaries provide no defense. They're not wrong.

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A broadsword has better survivability pre-18 (at which level Claws gets Focus). Frontloaded damage is a very good form of defense.

And actually, Blasters DO admit that their secondary gives them increased survivability. If they didn't then /nrg and /elec would not be preferable to /fire. I'd be interested to see how well a Blaster would do if they took no powers whatsoever from their secondary.

~Gabriel

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I'm not sure I'm exclusing the ideal situation, I'm just against calling it defense, much the way many are against calling range defense. Fast kills mitigate damage, but that doesn't make them defense. You have to draw line betwee the two concepts somewhere or you can't speak intelligently. By the definition used here, Blasters have the best defense in the whole game.

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Ah, OK. I see our problem.

I tend to look at the Offense/Defense question as part of a larger issue: your damage as a percentage of their survivability versus their damage as a percentage of your survivability. Thus, increasing either Offense or Defense gives you an edge - and I tend to view increasing one or the other as being roughly equal, since the end result is usually the same. In this game, increasing offense is usually preferable.

~Gabriel

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Okay.

Step 1 : Know what you're talking about.

For starters, the resistance debuff on Sonic Blasts is -20% for Defenders and -12 - 13% for Blasters (roughly 1.6 scalar).

Step 2 : Compare similar capabilities.

Last I checked, there were Sonic Blasters. They get 12.5% per debuff, but it's still notable, and a much more apt comparision than generic Blasters.
You'll also find that Sonic Blasters can do 4.468 scalar damage 'burst', compared to a damage-capped Kin/Sonic who will do 3.6 scalar.
Even if you go by average, with an estimate of +100% * 10/45 (Build Up * availability) + 62.5% * 10/45 (Amplify * availability), you'll find the Sonic Blaster doing ~2.8 scalar, and compared to a *normal* value for Kin/Sonic Blast being ~2.5.

Step 3 : Include values that you know.

Er, comparing two full powersets to one full powerset and a single power? Any possible problems here? I hate to point it out, but even FCS vastly shifts this combination, nevermind actually useful powers. And, sure, you can say that you're ignoring Kinetics powers (which alone is a problem), but outside a good FS, the kin/ powers won't buff damage significantly, while Total Focus most definetely will.

Step 4 : Think before typing.

In particular, something that requires you to stand in the middle of ~10 enemies for 3 seconds minimum is not overly sustainable.
Remember that the aggro metric for Defenders is significantly higher than that for Blasters.
And remember that Defenders have 84% of the health of a Blaster, and kinetics defenders have very little survivability through their primary powers against multiple targets.

*that's not to say I don't expect the sonic blast powerset to be nerfed. A viable control in Defender hands won't last long, and neither will the base 70% of Blaster damage Sonic Blast allows.*

EDIT: corrected grammar : mechanic to metric.
Also included more information on resistance debuff in Sonic Blast.

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I used information on the sonic debuff as provided by the CoH Hero Builder. I don't believe the difference is all that significant - if anything, it only supports my assertion, and I'm usually careful to err on the side of caution.

I did not use Sonic blasters for comparison, this is true. Because, as you will no doubt have noticed, I was not comparing kinetics defenders and blasters. I was comparing Kinetics/Sonics defenders and blasters. It should be obvious that I was more interested in examining whether a kin/sonic defender could attain the level of damage-per-hit which a blaster is capable of in general.

I find your entire post condescending; you don't seem to have made any attempt to be polite. Nothing I said in my original post is untrue. A kinetics/sonics defender can and will compare well with a blaster. That fact is undeniable. I made specific mention when I was using extreme examples, which fact you have ignored.

I did not misrepresent the situations for which I was making calculations. I did not posit situations that are unlikely to occur in casual gameplay. I did not impune your personal honor, nor attack anyone at all in the text of my original post. Your puerile attitude is totally uncalled for.

~Gabriel

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Sorry, just rambling.

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That's OK, I prefer your rambling to the peanut gallery calling me a troll.

~Gabriel

Actually, Pilcrow, I am indeed saying that Offense = Defense. Blasters know this intuitively - defeating something before it has a chance to inflict damage is often better than defeating it more slowly without risk.

In case you need proof, compare pre-18 claws and broadsword scrappers. You know the rest.

~Gabriel

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It's pretty weak at protecting teammates. Heals them well, but that's far from complete protection.


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You must be joking. This game is about damage - offense truly is the best defense. With Speed Boost, Siphon Power, and Fulcrum Shift (with Transference from time to time), a kinetics is arguably assuring the success of his team in ways unachievable by any other support character.

It all depends on how you define defense, I suppose. Whether defended or buffed, the end goal is to kill things before they kill you. I'd rather kill things faster than kill them at the same speed more safely.

~Gabriel

Pilcrow, I don't think my presentation was all that off. To wit:

- Nearly or equal to blaster damage (not damage over time, perhaps, but per hit).

- Powerful AoE heal.

- Infinite endurance post-28 via Transference.

- Siphon Speed. Needs no comment, yes?

- etc.

All in all, what I was attempting to underline was the fact that this combination can do everything (except AoE damage, really). It has the staying power of a regen scrapper, the damage of a blaster (or nearly), and the team-buffs and utility of a radiation defender to boot.

To be honest, the whole thing was a bit tongue-in-cheek. I assumed that much of my audience would already be in the know, so I figured I might as well have fun with it. Truth be told, kinetics defenders are tank-mages, and I'm tired of people denying it.

~Gabriel

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But if I were you I'd avoid public displays of how "great" a power combo is. You're attracting the nerf happy goons who run this game. Now scrap all this talk of defenders almost reaching blaster damage levels and get back to bashing vigilance.

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Actually, surpassing blaster damage levels. And I don't think they're going to nerf anything else. Fulcrum Shift has been the best power in the game forever, and it hasn't been nerfed. And given their recent unwillingness to nerf Energy Melee despite its overwhelming superiority in PvP, I think their nerfing days are done.

Of course, if they want to prove me wrong then I'm more than willing to thumb my nose at them - and cheekily to boot.

~Gabriel

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Sonics has a lower accuracy than Electric, I recall.

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Meaningless at high levels, when everyone caps accuracy anyway.

At least, I cap accuracy at high levels. If other people don't, that's their problem.

~Gabriel

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Oh and by the way... those travel powers.

superjump is miles better than that kinetics power that mimics it.

and siphon speed.... see here's the problem with it. it can miss, draws aggro.... and while it gives you comparable speed to superspeed it gives you none of the stealth. making it potentially dangerous to the user. Don't get me wrong... nice powers... but not real replacements for travel powers.

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I disagree.

~Gabriel

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Siphon speed is really good for two things: (A) Giving Hover a tolerable speed, now that you no longer can 6-slot it, and (B) slowing down opponents who otherwise run all over the map.

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Hm, you and I disagree there. Siphon Speed has a nice +recharge component, which is very useful in combination with Hasten. This also solves the problem of Sonics not being very good at maintaining an attack chain. Stacked Siphon Speed + Hasten + a rechred in each attack is mighty fine.

~Gabriel

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Also, you left out defiance.

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Oh my, I nearly busted a rib! You should take that act on the road.

~Gabriel

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Do purples work agains AOEs?

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Yes.

I suspect that Chimera's bow attacks are auto-hit. I don't know why they would be, but there you are.

~Gabriel