Circeus_NA

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My question though was that after they intoduced the change didn't you do a spreadsheet analysis that showed that Ice was better off than it was?

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Here's the thing. Statesman handed me the 66.7% number implying that it would not change. The actualy CE change hit test while I was away, and I didn't get back until I5 hit the live servers (I was posting for a few days from my cruise ship). So I didn't manage to test the change until I got back.

So anything prior to that I was using the 66.7%.

But he had also told me the damage debuff would be 10%.

So I was using those numbers for any analysis before I went away.

When I got back I measured and posted about the Damage Debuff being only 7%. Complained then, and then adjusted my analysis (still using 66.7%).

And then I started to look at the -Recharge. I wanted to be sure I was satisfied that it was 50% and not 66.7% so I tested it vs a ton of different powers inside the arena. And outside running demos and even using my program to count stuff takes time. I was looking for it to be different for PvP than PvE, but PvE testing takes generally longer than PvP testing (I have 3 accounts, and a few computers so PvP testing is fairly easy for me to do).

But until now I never did any sort of complete analysis with it. It was only 3 nights ago I finally felt confident to call it 50% for both PvP and PvE.

Had it been the numbers I had been given originally 66.7% and 10% (which were prior to the actual change) Ice would have been better off.

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Not that there isn't an issue but what are you using for Inv? 14 foes, 10 foes, 1 foe? Just wondering.

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There are 16 mobs in the comparison, but the point is more the net loss, not the comparison numbers themselves.

I've been holding off on posting this. Mostly because I was really hoping for follow up changes from I5, and that I wanted to try to look for a positive way to state this, but I don't feel there is one.

Why even bother to try to dupe the low population that play a powerset that was underpowered comparatively already, that was just handed a larger nerf than almost every other powerset in game? Who knows.

What it boils down to is this: the changes to Chilling Embrace in I5 were a nerf, not a buff. It was a change presented as a positive package, but on closer inspection its a nerf, a very light one, but its the sort of change that you almost wonder why, when looking at it more in depth, and measuring values, and comparing, why the heck the devs even bothered to make it.

NOTE: I'm not going to address the -SPD component for purposes of the rest of the post, it wasn't changed for I5 and behaves the same (near as I can tell)

In I4, Chilling Embrace had a -Recharge component that at its base level was a 66.7% debuff. What this means is that a recharge time of 10 becomes 10 * (1 + 66.7%) = 16.67s. This was a number provided by Statesman to me in private conversation, and one I verified on the live server at the time.

In I5, Chilling Embrace was given the addition of a -Damage debuff that after much testing, I'm fairly convinced has a base of around 7%. A more exact number is difficult to discern because this debuff is resistable by mobs who have RES vs the same damage type with which they are attacking.

However, at the same time the -Recharge debuff was dropped in effectiveness from 66.7% to 50%. I have run a few tests both inside and outside of the Arena (PvP and PvE) that I feel conclude this to be the number without a doubt.

The problem, adding the -Damage debuff, combined with the fact that it is resistable, while at the same time lowering the -Recharge, makes Chilling Embrace actually weaker than it was before.

Just some comparative results to show you the difference (Toxic/Psi not shown), please keep in mind that these numbers get worse when the -Damage component is resisted by mobs, which is quite often in game:

InvulnTank vs Ice Tankers (I5 changes, using I4 CE):
Smash/Lethal: 17.17% (amount of damage InvulnTank takes compared to Ice)
Energy/Negative: 100.17%
Fire: 37.86%
Cold: 218.62%

InvulnTank vs Ice Tankers (I5 changes, using I5 CE):
Smash/Lethal: 16.96% (amount of damage InvulnTank takes compared to Ice)
Energy/Negative: 98.94%
Fire: 37.37%
Cold: 215.83%

Net Losses:
Smash/Lethal: 1.223%
Energy/Negative: 1.228%
Fire: 1.294%
Cold: 1.276%

*****

Granite vs Ice Tankers (I5 Changes, using I4 CE):
Smash/Lethal: 23.48% (amount of damage Granite takes compared to Ice)
Energy/Negative: 23.48%
Fire: 8.33%
Cold: 48.09%

Granite vs Ice Tankers (I5 changes, using I5 CE):
Smash/Lethal: 23.20% (amount of damage Granite takes compared to Ice)
Energy/Negative: 23.20%
Fire: 8.22%
Cold: 47.50%

Net Losses:
Smash/Lethal: 1.193%
Energy/Negative: 1.193%
Fire: 1.321%
Cold: 1.227%

*****

InvulnScrapper vs Ice Tankers (I5 changes, using I4 CE):
Smash/Lethal: 93.42% (amount of damage InvulnScrapper takes compared to Ice)
Energy/Negative: 252.59%
Fire: 92.96%
Cold: 536.86%

InvulnScrapper vs Ice Tankers (I5 changes, using I5 CE):
Smash/Lethal: 92.29% (amount of damage InvulnScrapper takes compared to Ice)
Energy/Negative: 249.53%
Fire: 91.79%
Cold: 530.09%

Net Losses:
Smash/Lethal: 1.209%
Energy/Negative: 1.211%
Fire: 1.259%
Cold: 1.261%

*****

Avg Loss vs InvulnTank: 1.256% (approx)
Avg Loss vs Granite: 1.234% (approx)
Avg Loss vs InvulnScrapper: 1.235% (approx)

Approx Avg Loss: 1.241%

Again, keep in mind that loss increases vs mobs that are resistant (RES) vs the same type of damage they are dealing.

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I agree that this is needed, and a good solution. But for PvP, isn't 100+% debuff resistance from SR a little too high? I feel that 80% for Ice is fair, and maybe 70% for SR befitting the scrappers better damage.

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Well a Scrapper's Resistances cap at 75%. I always thought that was any Resistances, not just ones vs Damage.

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As some players have pointed out, Defense builds (Super Reflexes, Ice Armor, Stone Armor to a degree) have an inherent weakness in that there are a plethora of powers that debuff Defense in PvE and PvP.

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I quit. that fist line was the biggest load of bull cocky anyone ever tried to feed me with a straight face, so-to-speak. Do you devs actually PLAY City of Heros??! I mean with real players, who dont know you're devs and try to kiss your bottom for it? Cause my magic 8-ball says, "signs point to NO!"

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You're kidding right? This is actually something "real players" have been complaining about. Its too easy to debuff DEF and its way too common in game.

This is great news. I assume when you say subtract you mean "subtract that % of the total from the total" and not "subtract that % from the total", right?

Now how about addressing Smashing and Lethal damage for Ice Tanks, and why its okay to have them so far behind the curve vs the most common damage types in game.

Edit: I get that Stone needs it too pre-Granite, but in thinking about it a bit further, putting this on Granite is completely unneeded. Granite form is RES based at its core, DEF is secondary. Also, I get that it has to be Rooted because Minerals comes too late in the game, but because Rooted stacks with Granite, again there's an issue here. Granite is already good enough, it doesn't need this.

Also a question, do they stack, or do they only defened vs what they already provide defense for. For example, is it a total DEF debuff resistance, or is it, for say Frozen Armor, only protecting vs Smash/Lethal debuffs.

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Here is my question...I have Wet Ice, six slotted with defense, and grandfathered in. Is it going to be worth it to keep it instead of respeccing out of it? What about when my enhancements grey out, will it be worth it then instead of taking other powers?

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Excellent question, and the crux of why the devs just shouldn't have done this. While not being crucial, it is a point that I guarantee players who don't frequent these forums are 100% uninformed on.

Ok... the base 1.1% DEF vs S/L/E/N/F/C for Wet Ice is now unenhanceable.

Each even level SO that happens to already be in there will be providing 0.22% extra. 6SOs are therefore 2.42% total, giving you 1.32% extra DEF.

From there? You have to decide if that extra DEF is worth it.

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Just a few quick questions, when you say 7% or 17% is that base? or max with ++ enhancements?

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Its always the base. Keep in mind that the 7% -Damage (Damage Debuff) on Chilling Embrace is not enhanceable as there's no such enhancement (just like there's no -Recharge enhancent) - Slows will only affect -Speed.

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Your the master of EA Q, how would you suggest slotting it now? Mind you I'm not a herder and usally have a max team size around 5, so I won't be getting the 14 minions most of the time.

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No one will get 14 mobs most of the time anyway. Heck I've herded in excess of 25 mobs and the most I could ever muster was 11 buffs at once. So until they either increase the radius or lower the number of mobs required for a maximum buff, I don't think that's going to change much.

That said, I've got Hasten, and I tried sticking with my 3R/3D slotting that I recommended with Hasten before. But I eventually went with a 4R/2D slotting as it works out slightly better for smaller than 14 mobs., and 1 or both of the DEF slots may change to End. I can't yet say that won't change further

Without Hasten? Get Hasten! No seriously... I'd probably go with a 5R/1D pattern, as that looks best for the DEF vs Recovery tradeoff.

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Sorry to post this request because it probably has been discussed. I am having eye problems and cant read too much at one time. With all the changes made to Ice Tanks, does someone have the actual numbers of what "decreased" this means?? Also, the new effects that the powers have now.

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Though you PM'd me for this, I figured it couldn't hurt to post this here (a bit more laid out):

Frozen Armor:
17% DEF Smash/Lethal (down from 25%)
30% RES Cold (same)
12.5% RES Fire (up from 10%)
can no longer enhance for RES

Glacial Armor:
17% DEF Energy/Negative (down from 25%)
30% RES Cold (same)
can no longer enhance for RES

Wet Ice:
1.1% DEF Smash/Lethal/Energy/Negative/Fire/Cold (down from 12.5% E/N, 9% S/L/F/C)
30% RES Cold
can't enhance for RES or DEF
RES vs Sleep, Hold, Disorient, Slow, Immobilze, and Knockback

Permafrost:
20% RES Cold (same)
12.5% RES Fire (up from 10%)
Slow Resistance

Energy Absorption:
0.5% DEF per mob (down from 18.75%)
14 mob maximum (up from 5)
Drains End
Recovers End

Hoarfrost: (unchanged)
20% Toxic

Chilling Embrace:
now additionally provides 7% Damage Debuff
otherwise unchanged

Icicles:
unchanged

Hibernate:
Health Recovery (unchanged)
added End Recovery
Lowered EPS
Removed secondary activation
1.5s Activation
30s Duration (28.5s with subtracing 1.5s activation, timer counts from click)
120s Recharge (doubled)

Are you testing vs a single foe? Or multiple? Remember damage tics for multiple foes can be misleading.

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I just got on live and was doing some croatoa missions with my ice tanker (level 32) and it seems the devs snuck in a change to icicles. It's damage ticks more often than previously. At a quick guess I would say is it ticking once a second now. I think the end drain is the same as before, but at least now it might be worth it.

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I tried this out on the test server late last night, and its still burning the same End and the tics are still slightly over 2s apart. And the test server and live are currently on the same build #.

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<doom>

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I'd more say its replace the "d" with a "gl".

7 months of effort to effect change, only to get table scraps in the end.

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Sorry. No new Hollows badge. My bad.

New badges are for Moonfire, Dr. Quaterfield, Sara Moore, and Faathim the Kind.

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So not one for Justin Augustine?

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I'll pop in here so you guys have a new target.

The original Task Force Datamine took 3 months to finish. That was to go over 2 months worth of data.

We now have 18 months worth of data. We looked for a more effecient solution, but our estimates still come out at 2 years to datamine and get you your badges.

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Why look at datamining then? A number of TFs have at one point or another awarded Souviners. At the very least do a character sweep, and check each TF vs each character and if they have the Souviner for a TF then award the corresponding badge. Simple, elegant, done. Perfect? No. Better than what we're being told? Yes.

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Circ and I both offered considerable quantities of adult beverages. So either they are on the wagon or just can't be bothered.

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Yeah two full cases of beer of choice were offered between Toshi and I for direct answers to all points of all questions laid out by me towards the beginning of this thread. And most of the questions remain unanswered still.

Lets go over them all in summation...

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0) Why were Ice Tankers, who were clearly on the bottom of the Tanker barrel to begin with, having been on par with Invuln Scrappers defensively, hit so hard for this Issue?

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No clear cut explanation for this whatsoever.

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1) Was the Slow Resistance fixed on Wet Ice? The patch note only mentions fixing it for Energy Absorption, and yet on live Wet Ice has the same bug.

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No answer on this at all.

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2) Why is Wet Ice no longer offering a measurable amount of DEF? Is this intentional? If not, what can we expect here in the future in the way of DEF?

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We all know how this worked out. Another one-slot-wonder. Between this and the EA change, Ice Tanks no longer have a decent sustainable base DEF anymore.

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3) Question (2) but sub "Wet Ice" with "Energy Absorption"?

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14 mobs. The "enforced herding" change (also known as the "drag some mobs around with you while you kill everything else" change). Summed up in 3 words: Piss Poor Design.

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4) Is this the face of Ice Tankers going forward defensively? You've put us into a range defensively where we're only maginally better than an SR Scrapper (our base DEFs are slightly higher, but their DEF is total coverage, whereas ours is not). And when they pop Elude they end up with a much higher DEF than our totals.

This means our defenses are down in the low end of Scrapper range for I5, and yet we are not being subsequently provided with a compensation for this - Scrappers get their damage, what do we get as Ice Tankers?

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All comparisons continue show us sitting toward the bottom of the barrel still, somewhere in Scrapperdom defensively. Though to be fair we can eck out a better life in I5 than SR Scrappers can.

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5) Can you please! please! please! do something with Permafrost? It just sits there, and because its highly redundant with the RES in our other Armors it ends up not being taken by a large majority of Ice Tankers.

There are two things I could see you doing here:

a) Remove Permafrost completely, then either replace it with something new and exciting, and attractive, OR slide the powers that come after it down one tier (Icicles, Glacial Armor, Energy Absorption, and Hibernate). This would make room for a more exiting and melee oriented power at level 32 (more on this below).

b) Make Permafrost more attractive. Add Toxic RES to it (in addition to what's on Hoarfrost). Maybe throw in some Smashing/Lethal RES so we don't have to pool dive for Tough (a situation that the Test Server changes don't make any less necessary). How about Psi Resistance (the mind is as densly cold as the body).

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What did we get? 2.5% more Fire RES, and Slow Resistance. Was anyone who was Ice saying "Gee, I need more Slow Resistance?" No, not really. What you basically did was strip Ice of any real DEF vs Fire so that it basically had to take Permafrost if it ever wanted a chance of living vs Fire. Fire of course, being the 4th most common type of damage in game.

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6) If we are to have such a strong weakness to Fire, why must Ice Tankers also be weak towards Psi? And please don't answer this with more than "Psi is the Tanker weakness", because we both know that Stone Tanks get Psi defenses. Also please don't try to tell me that Chilling Embrace covers this, we both know Psi attacks are all ranged, and CE is a melee range effect on foes.

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No answer on this at all.

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7) Can Chilling Embrace please be changed to not take level into account when affecting higher (or lower) level foes? It just falls off too rapidly to be as useful as its supposed to be. Even on a heroic mission with other teammates you can see mobs as high as +2, and that 25% drops down to 20% by that point, so it ends up not being as "equivalent" to RES as it should be.

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No answer on this at all.

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8) If Chilling Embrace is really intended as a RES substitute (which is something I've always felt it was supposed to be), then can it please get a larger AoE for Tankers, to potentially affect more at range. Right now since it only affects melee range, its offers no protection at range at all.

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No answer on this at all.

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9) The Hibernate lunch list:

a) Can it please not turn off any powers.

b) Can we please be able to turn on powers while using it.

c) In the advent that you choose to leave it the level 32 power, can you make it more melee friendly? Perhaps a Taunt Radius? an AoE "Bitter Frost" that causes a slow like Chilling Embrace? Or maybe just let Chilling Embrace work while its active?

d) Its nice that it heals, but there's no way to make that heal avaialble often enough to be of great use. The best recharge you can eck out of it is 16s and that requires perma-Hasten and 6 recharge enhancements. As most Ice Tanker deaths occur in the span of 5-10 seconds, that recharge time will never be fast enough. It basically has to be useful all the time more or less.

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We got (a). (b) and (c) were ignored, and (d) was made worse.

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10) Cut the End cost of Icicles by at least half. The 1.5 EPS that it is on live is just way too high.

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No answer on this at all. Basically 100% ignored, as it was litterally the most requested Ice Tanker change bar none.

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11) Why doesn't Glacial Armor (E/N DEF) protect vs Rikti Swords (S/E damage)? (please say bug!!!)

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Was a big, and was fixed. No mention was made that it was fixed though, basically it had to be tested for by players.

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12) Despite all the Accuracy changes listed above, this does not at all address the fact that attacks performed by AVs and Monsters are designed to kill characters with capped or very high RES. There are some AVs who have attacks that can one shot a full green health bar of Hoarfrosted health. This has to go. You need to either reign in the attacks of AVs and Monsters to reasonable levels, or you need to provide a means whereby DEF based builds (Ice Tanks and SR Scrappers) do not get one-shot killed. Melee classes have defense, but vs large attacks DEF withouth RES is quite meaningless. And there's nothing a healer or anyone else on your team can do to alleviate this - except perhaps some RES buffs from an SB or Dark Defender, but to say we have to get those all the time is ludicrous. A real solution needs to be provided.

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Addressed for everyone in game, but not specifically for Ice Tankers, though DEF does gain more of a benefit.

Then of course there's these issues...

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1) Swarms (both regular and Devouring Swarms) need either a lower Accuracy, a lower rate of attack, or quite possibly both. They're a pet/underling. And yet, because of Taunt Aura's and Punchvoke they will stick on a Tanker like glue, and not let up in a most unrelenting fashion. They need to be reigned in big time.

This is a huge issue for DEF only since they have no way of naturally toning down the damage leaving either Tough or Health as the only ways out. This is more an issue for younger Ice Tankers. Chilling Embrace's Slow doesn't much cut into their attack rate, but its what attracts them, and yet you can't exactly turn it off, since you need it on to help protect you from other things around you.

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Not addressed at all. In fact, made tremendously worse.

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2) Auto-hit aura's on AVs have got to go (e.g., the Envoy of Shadows). Without anything sitting behind DEF, these powers basically negate any defenses for an Ice Tanker leaving them soft and squishy. Again the only real way to help with them is Health.

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Not addressed at all. In fact, made tremendously worse.

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3) Mobs that can buff each other's Accuracy or debuff DEF seem to have strong abilities in this area. Devouring Earth Quartz Beacons are a great example, as they seem to impart at least +100% Accuracy to other DE. I did notice that the length of time that Nemesis Vengeance lasts seems to be shorter on Test server right now, which is a big boon here. More changes like this need to come.

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Not addressed at all. In fact, made tremendously worse.

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4) Base PvP Accuracy is 75%. This means that from the get-go an Ice Tankers Defenses are nullified come I5. Not to mention that 1 Accuracy Enhancer will cap that Accuracy for a non-AoE power. Weapon draw sets get +5% Accuracy. The prevalence of BuildUp, Aim, Focused Accuracy, etc. A DEF based melee set is utterly crippled in PvP. It'd be nice to know if this is going to be addressed somehow.

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Not addressed at all. In fact, made tremendously worse.

Then there's this post made by Statesman, where basically he tells us that he listened to Ice Tankers by:

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4. Added -Damage to Chilling Embrace

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7% base. Resistable by mobs, basically like putting a band-aid on a compound fracture. This really doesn't do more than give us a little thing to do, it doesn't reduce damage enough to prevent excessive damage.

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5. Increase Def to Smashing/Lethal for Ice Tankers

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By 1% over what it was initially. Still lightyears behind either Invuln or Stone, with no real explanation as to why this is at all. We do not even have Cold as a niche over Stone mind you, they even blow Ice away in that department.

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6. Improved Hibernate for Ice Tankers

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Somewhat. At the same time you worsened certain issues with it (see above), and there's no real explanation for the 30s time limit. Not like you can Hibernate through a mission and complete it - in terms of Hibernate the 30s duration is the one true PvP change that I think you made because there is no other explanation for it whatsoever. Not to mention the 30s duration isn't really that since the timer starts from the power being clicked not from when activation is complete.

So, while I think that Statesman tries to listen to us, I think he hears us saying only what he wants to hear us saying.

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Circeus, sorry about suggesting that we are the best against cold damage. I'm not sure where I got the idea that a person surrounded by ice would handle the cold better than most. *slaps forehead*

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Well... its not you who should be sorry. Its the devs who should be going "Wuh? Ice isn't best vs Cold? Fire isn't best vs Fire? [censored] were we thinking?" Unfortunately, I don't really see that happening any time soon.

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(Cold being our other rare niche)

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Even then, that's not really true. When you look at it, a Stone Tanker running just Granite Armor does slightly better than Ice vs Cold (taking about 95% of Ice's damage), and when you throw in Rooted on top of Granite its tremendously better (only 50% of Ice's damage). So we're not the kings/queens of taking Cold damage either (and Fire is not the king of Taking Fire Damage, that also goes to Stone).

But that's only in terms of damage not in secondary effects. Because generally, Cold attacks slow. And its being able to eat Cold damage plus Slow Resistance that, if we ever get a Winter Wonderland added, will really shine vs Cold based villains. However, like you said, for the half dozen Cold based villains there are the ability for that combo to shine is few and far between.

If people want to have less issues with Sappers and Carnies now, and their End Drains, they'll call on Dark Armor Scrappers and Stone Tanks - those who have End Drain Resistance. All that said, the drain from a Sapper is likely too large - it always has been. I consider them one of those creations that a developer throws into the game when they feel they've got no other way to beat someone.

Personally I just want to play a Tanker that feels like a Tanker. And that should not be a fight for survival every time you get in the ring with something. Sure, there should be a chance you can die, but you should, as a Tanker, always have a reasonable chance for survival. And now for Ice Tankers that is simply not the case as your chances for dying far outweigh your chances for living.

But we can...
Stop fighting to heal
Sort of ignore slows
Draw Endurance
Slow things
put a minor dent in damage (Damage Debuff)

At the cost of...
3 Weaknesses (Toxic, Psi, and Fire)
Not comparatively strong vs the most common damage types (Smash/Lethal)
Not even on top vs Cold
Actually slightly better vs Energy/Negative than Invuln - until they pop Unstoppable
The most End intensive damage aura in game
requiring at least a half dozen mobs to come close to being able to floor minions on our own
unreliable, inconsistent defenses (EA requires mobs, CE's debuff is resisted)

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Once again, I think Jack needs to buy a new dictionary, the one where the word 'balance' doesn't have all those typos. Much less 'global'. I like how we're being expected to swallow these changes when they don't even apply to every power set.

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Well... I tend to agree. Balance is as much about consistency in design as it is anything else. Its very clear that the powersets now lack consistency, let alone balance.

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Just FYI, I posted about the new ice tanker change to Hibernate in the tanker forum. Change took place on 8/24/05.

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Yeah I saw...

Its about a 1.5s Activation.

Duration is 30s, but it starts ticking from whent he power is clicked, not from when activation is complete - meanding actual duration is about 28.5s

And its new recharge time is 120s.

Overall its a "thank you for this lovely Tier 7 power in a Tier 9 position".

I now more than ever feel this is a power that should not be immobilizing us.

Edit: oh, and welcome to imbalance; PBs and WSs get bys for their Phase Shifting powers

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we do have resistance to slow but unless u slot it it only helps a tiny bit, Thats what hasten is for anyway, so i don't slot it.

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Ummm... you can't enhance Resistance to Slow. Though I do agree that Hasten offsets slows, just not as much as the Resistance to Slows does.

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Just because you're in SG mode doesn't mean you automatically get Prestige. You still have to do things.

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So, why not just mine if we've teamed with SG members. Which is something that people do all the time, but they don't necessarily use SG mode while doing it. Had people known this would be a requirement, people would have been doing it all along.

Besides, not like there's a lot of use for SG outside of mild organization. They have crap functionality in general. We were promised more functionality for SG to come along with CoV. But not word one has been said about this.

So besides "spending time in SG mode gets you bases", name 5 other enhancements you've made to SGs for CoV.

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Statesman, could we, at the very least, get some Psi defense outside of EA...3 sheaths of frozen water must do something to block mental energy? I mean, it's a small bone, but at least it's something.

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You mean at all. EA doesn't offer Psi DEF.

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He made the same response in every thread.

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Ah... well then, I expect this thread branch to cease to exist shortly

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I would like to use my 1 post to say...nothing..thats all...I just can't fathom a game changing this much after release....you should have just released CoH2 and said that CoH was dead.

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This is not a dev response thread, CuppaJo has said so to me in a PM, so feel free to respond even more.

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Well for what it's worth, Jack Frost's version of Chilling Embrace doesn't have the new damage debuff. A few of us ice controllers have tested it out to make sure.

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Well a saving grace I suppose.

Its also nice to know the Blaster/Controller EPP version of Hibernate lacks the changes.

The thing I don't get is the Blaster version of CE getting the damage debuff then. After all I know that in most cases, powers with the same name in two different sets are equal. I remember learning this with Burn having had a Blaster with Burn.