Chyll

(semantics. The devs call their extended single missions raids, so I call them raids.)

Regardless, the issue is right there (emphasis added). Let's randomly say they do Rularru next.

Will the new shiny Rularru raids provide a new option/path to open the already released slots, or will it offer entirely new paths to unlock the next wave of incarnate powers?

I suspect the latter. initial incarnates content will always be limited to the Praetorian war as they "chase the shiny" (TM M_B). that's a big part of my issue/fear/disappointment.

true enough, but I wouldn't call that a core game play mechanic.

right. and that's fine.

But... unlocking incarnates and all that that brings for the first several slots IS TIED to THIS ONE STORY (that, to be fair, even by wacky comic standards makes no sense). that is the complaint. We expected/wanted/hoped for better. and we are disappointed at being disappointed. That's it.

It isn't the arc. its the arc tied to the mechanic. That is not how CoX has worked. It feels off. And the idea that we don't expect that to change. That's the discussion point, and the offering of ideas of how we think both sides could have been happy - if only - and I think Bill's right on why it didn't happen, and that is probably means 2012 (at best) before a pass is made to do anything about that gap.

yes, agreed. but does it have to be multiple issues in a row and TIED to a major new game mechanic.

What is being said in a nutshell:

• advance more than one story constistently
• feel free to use alternate issues to do that rather than fire hose it
• decouple the mechanic

we (I at least) support the end game concept they have and support raids within a larger package of mutually supporting content (Eva's excellent comment):
and now that its established that way... I don't see not getting anything but raids for this in the future. I hope I'm wrong. but my confidence is shot given history

That is over simplifying too far.

Also simpler:

• It is great they are trying to finish this story now... but they are binding that story into a new core game mechanic. [limiting and shallow]
• Instead of advancing multiple stories along with the new mechanic. [choice and variety and depth]

More good ideas there - probably (okay, very likely) better than my own.

The point being they address the concerns of those-wanting-content-within-the-game-structure without uncutting the benefit of those that like the structure and aren't as concerned about the content.

This is the crux of the matter isn't it?

I was thinking about this very thing last night because I have not been able to offer an answer on this.

What is it I would expect? In a dreamscape of Chyll's imagaining (draft 1, mind you):

I would have liked to see something leveraging Origins (a long standing player desire to use those more sits out there, so win/win). Rather than the same Trapdoor arc to unlock, there could have been a series of arcs ideally 1 for each origin (similar feel, but different details), perhaps 1 for vill/hero. So 10 arcs tops. that variety also squelches all the complaints of the repititiveness (win/win/win). Leave a touch of the Well in if needed for linkage, but let it filter through the Origins. Let it feel open if nothing else. A fair amount of work I know... but I was brainstorming.

Then for the rest of the content... I would set up some TFs to kick off the war. Tin, Apex, and the other I20 ones coming seem to line up nicely - so that was done.

Then some normal contacts, 1 vill/1 hero/1 praetorian to let players or teams dig deeper into the war. Let the arcs be incarnate gated, so they can earn incarnate rewards (slower than raids or TFs is fine, it just doesn't have to be as glacial as it seems now), but let the option be there.

(And, yes, a praetorian arc. I have at least one character that would gladly go back to praetorian to keep away any primal invasion, whether he likes Tyrant or not it is still home.)

follow that with letting us know a similar arc structure is pending for the Shadow Shard, for some DE content, all the great bads. Let each issue focus on moving one story forward? Start filling them all rather than single track...

<mini-rant>But let us know. I'm tired of hearing about the coming storm, hints of bastion, unfinished Rikti War, laments of the Shard.... and then we get the Praetorian war bound into incarnates and content pounded out left and right.</mini-rant>

And raids are fine - they are the high points or climax of this war's story line. They should just not drive the entire step into greater power.

<mini-rant>And really, again, we are stronger than ever and we can only do things that require 12-24 of our closest [also stronger] colleagues? It is downright lazy design, IMO.</mini-rant>

perfect ideas? most probably not, but right off the top they seem more flexible, more accessible, and able to better fit a variety of player styles and concerns.

This would also feel more like the CoX I know and love and would have me enthusiastic in keeping my sub online for a long time.

And now I know you missed the point.

And I haven't seen a one of us with this issue claiming otherwise. But that does not make the barrier any less true or valid.


trite. probably true. but I think I've lost faith that the future fights will be presented in any better light.

or

6) Come to the forums and attempt to have an open and frank discussion about something that concerns you and try to determine if it is a flawed solo viewpoint, or one that is shared - perhaps even promote moving towards something everyone would appreciate and be able to enjoy.

Agreed, particularly as the Cimmerians, as I recall, lived in proximity to the norse analogs of the setting, and Conan measured his youth in the number of 'snows' or winters he had survived.

I took it to mean he'd been South so long he was so darkly tanned that at a glance he could be thought to be nemedian... the countenance thought is a good one. not one I had considered, and adds a fair bit to the quote. thanks for shaing that.

Also true.

Not sure I'd use a description of him bedecked in the regalia of Aquilonia as my go to Conan image...

"Arus saw a tall powerfully built youth, naked but for a loin-cloth, and sandals strapped high about his ankles. His skin was burned brown as by the suns of the wastelands and Arus glanced nervously at his broad shoulders, massive chest and heavy arms, A single look at the moody, broad-browed features told the watchman the man was no Nemedian. From under a mop of unruly black hair smoldered a pair of dangerous blue eyes. A long sword hung in a leather scabbard at his girdle."

edit: this isn't necessarily my go to image either, just the first I could lay hands on from the stories that had him loinclothed and warrior-impressive looking.

I meant costume loot tied to powers.

I can't think of a single instance where "You can't where nifty shoulder pad 5 unless you have AoE Damage Aura of Cool."

There are instances were they are tied to "completed X", granted. but few and far between given the general awesome of options within the costume creator.


So it is a matter, I suppose of how it is implemented...

edit: and apparently a moot point anyway

And CoH to this point has avoided the look=loot=powers. And no reason to start. I really dislike this idea.

glad to hear it

Yep, I agree completely with your conclusion, Claws. From a design and mechanism standpoint I really like what they have accomplished (drops, powers sequence, crafting structure, etc.).

For the grind complainers... yeah, your point is probably on target.

I wouldn't mind the grind if I liked the content.
I do/have done all the other grinds in the game without great qualm. I don't like this one. And I don't want to not like it.... you know that is probably my problem.... I'm truly let down by the game for the first time...

*slinks away to think about that some*

That isn't analogous really.

I don't have a wife and kids depending on whether I get that next shard.


DanZero said that better than I did...

I think that sums it up nicely for the main opposition.


I think my hang up is that I don't like the incarnate content, but want the incarnate stuff. And again, there is no other way to get the stuff... so yeah, you may have hit it on the head.

I in know way want to characterize my perception as an objective reality for anyone but myself. It is my subjective reality, that I am sharing as input to the overall discussion. I only ask that it be honored as that. I assume (perhaps erroneously) that it may be shared by others in the community, and is worthy of least an airing to that end accordingly.

I recognize that things change and alter and morph, especially within an active game like CoH. That is healthy and good for the long term.
I've tried multiple other MMOs and never spent a dime or more than a few hours in the free ones. CoH for whatever reason has over the years hit my sweet spot. It has been fun - costumes, ATs, power, solo, teams, TF, all of it. I have ridden each change - finding and taking my fun out of them and passing over that which doesn't spark my interest without a hiccup.

To me, for me, from my perspective as I play teamed and solo the excitement I had looking forward to Incarnate action has muted considerably.

I am not saying dooooom. I am not complaining about the drops/gating - it makes sense and seems pretty straight forward. It is accessible, mechanically it is nicely structured, almost elegant (though my experience, again, with similar MMO activities is limited).

I like and played certain 50s regularly before incarnates and I was excited to take them on an incarnate path... a few are now level shifted and I've taken a couple through the the coming trials.

I (me, myself) do not like it. The fact is for me that this is taking CoH off of my sweet spot. It is not engagingly fun and is not the same game.
I know everything I like from before is still there, and I do not have to play the new shiny. I get that, too. But I like my 50s and I want them to progress - I've invested in them for years now, and I do not want to stop.

But I do not like the progression in front of me as it has been presented. That's all.

And I do not have to.

But, that does not alter the fact that for me CoH is changing in a way I do not embrace, this time.

Again, I do not say this to be a crybaby, and I do not mean to whine. It is an observation and perspective no less true than that of people that love the new stuff (and I am happy for them).

My feeling is not an objective reality for all. But it is a subjective reality that is no less real for my CoH constituency (even if that is a a constituency of one). I know other CoH constituencies have had similar issues. I sympathized with them then, and I understand their positions better now.

I am not whining and stomping my feet. I am sharing. If there is no place for my perspective, so be it.

I get what you are saying, Aracanaville (and over the years your voice and opinion are on the short list of those I listen to implicitly). But for whatever reason, this change does indeed feel different to me (the first since I've been playing - only since I7 I admit). Right or wrong, the perception lays there mocking me.

• It is gated, that's fine. But it is gated in a different way. There, so far, hasn't really been an arc or story with meat on it... which feels off.
• The new trials have cool elements, but are just long, complex single missions....
• ...that require teaming. It is an MMO, I know, but before there were missions (solo or teamed) or TF as a range of options. The range on this feels constrained.

It is a feeling, my own, that this isn't my CoH. *shrug* I'm clearly not alone, and I have a feeling that I may be in the minority. In no way do I think it is *doom* or going to hurt the game in general.

But it may have fundamentally hurt it for me. I probably just need a break.

General may have been too general a word.

It seems as if I've seen fewer instances of people saying "that's silly" instead of "you're silly".


Maybe my memory is rose-colored about pretty faithful self policing and not really feeling what Maestro mentions until recently:

You may be right. And maybe I missed this phase the last time.

Or maybe I'm just reading the wrong threads.

I think ogi has it. I feel like I'm seeing more personal attacks and whatnot which clashes with the long standing atmosphere.

I was responding in this thread, about this discussion. Of which I have been vocal, so felt your comment targeted my way.

But apparently I am angry and cynical today, so maybe I'll just slink away.