Cheetatron
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Posts
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I read somewhere that it causes the bots to postpone using their heal,until their target looses a certain percentage of hp and the needed amount of hp loss increases as you slot more heal enhancements.
Can anyone confirm that is true? -
Quote:Yes it worked great in autos but the original version was lack luster in AOEs you really mean to tell me that twice as bad in AOEs is how it should have been from the start? It alone was to be denied the amazing in some places, awful in others role the other PPM procs gotOriginally Posted by UberGuy
There's "working as designed" and "working as intended". Someone laid out a design that said 20% chance procs convert to 3 PPM SBE procs. According to that, PShifter was "working as designed".
Unfortunately, what that actually did in practice was not "working as intended". Someone didn't catch that this design created EPS recovery performance well above not just the 20% chance version of PShifter (more than double) but also significantly better than the SBE version of Numina and Miracle. When it outperforms both the regular version and comparable things they're selling in the Paragon Market, that's a great candidate for asking "hmm, should it really be like that?"
Given the same mentality is goin into the new fix being proposed... -
Quote:the only way to be at 90% under the most recent revision would be to avoid slotting recharge into the power IIRCOriginally Posted by Jibikao
Not sure how this is going to affect Stalker's proc that much. The cap is 90% which is still very high and Stalker proc is the only one that you can't stack and has 10s restriction, so having even faster recharge on Assassin Strike doesn't make the proc happen more often.
I can see how it affects other ATO procs that can stack and quite frankly, some of them need to be tuned down a bit (dominator's?). -
Quote:I think its a good suggestion I have tried GMs, I tried Posi, and at least 2 other staff members I'll try BP thx againOriginally Posted by Another_Fan
I agree with you all completely on the customer relations aspect of this but synapse is likely the wrong guy to bother about it. You probably want to PM black pebble or whoever the business customer relation types are, give them a list of your purchases and let them know just how bad this looks from your perspective.
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Quote:I think people like our foolish selves who invested in PPs and PM must be pretty small, because the second people started complaining about "pay to win" in this highly, highly competitive, mostly pvp game, the performance differences afforded by the ppm system became "unintended" or atleast that was the rhetoric that appliedOriginally Posted by Karu
While I understand the need to tweak and fix things that are broken or out of whack, these particular changes in planning made me angry enough to finally register on the forum, just to post this.
I've bought PP for the exact purpose of getting market procs, BECAUSE they were guaranteed to fire on slow recharge heavy hitters. I wouldn't pay for something I can easily craft in game. Now you're going to change procs in a way that makes bought and crafted ones identical, making my purchases worthless... and making recharge bonuses less of a bonus and more of a penalty in the process.
This is wrong. I've paid for products that you're going to radically alter, for the worse. I don't want 90% chance (or who knows how much less), I PAID for 100% chance.
The current way works fine. Crafted procs are good for fast recharge powers, store-bought ones are an attractive option for slow recharge ones. The slow stuff is still, y'know, slow, so it's not like the advantage is earth-shattering. Don't try to fix what isn't broken.
Re-think this, please. It's a bad idea, all in all.
1 famous Kurt Vonnegut Jr. short story: Harrison Bergeron
I had a very strong feeling perf shifter wasn't going to be the last of this bait and switch mentality and now a all of my sbe purchases are invalidated
-The Damage procs are no longer worthwhile purchases
-The chance for hold procs are now going to be worthless to me in all the app holds I slotted them into making the holds barely worthwhile
-The 1ppm build up procs I bought? hosed
Except for the item you bought and the performance given from the item you bought that is subject to change, the money you gave to us for that item is FINAL, Problem?Quote:Originally Posted by Max_zero
"All sales are final." -
Quote:I've been paying close attention to that thread all day and I stand buy what I said so long as people know what's up they can do what ever they likeOriginally Posted by OneFrigidWitch
Instead of crying fire, how about some patience? Nothing has been changed, nothing has been altered. And it was already indicated that they are going back to the drawing board on the issue.
I'm saying don't buy -
Quote:I think you misread himOriginally Posted by Thirty-Seven
You are entitled to that opinion. I, however, feel that it is the wrong way to go for the health of the game. There shouldn't be any kind of power that is behind a pay-wall that is strictly better than what you can get in-game. Period. Doing anything else create disparity based on income bracket, which, quite frankly, is something that many come to the world of games to avoid.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
Devastation and Touch of Death are both 15% Proc Chance IO, 2.5 PPM SBO. They were the only 15% IOs I could think to check; I didn't realize Lockdown broke that pattern.Lockdown is indeed 2ppm not sure how that effects things over allQuote:Originally Posted by UberGuy
Nothing is final, but the current proposal was for an increase of 20-25% over current PPMs. That's 2.4 to 2.5 based on the current value of 2.
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Quote:Don't know what your asking me to try again about, I was asking a very simple question...Originally Posted by Reppu
... Uh, no.
15% flatrate would become 3.125 PPM, under the newly proposed system. Try again.
let me double checkQuote:Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
Devastation and Touch of Death are both 15% Proc Chance IO, 2.5 PPM SBO. They were the only 15% IOs I could think to check; I didn't realize Lockdown broke that pattern. -
Quote:are you using a current SBE for that 2.5 figure? I ask because the lockdown proc is currently only 2ppm do we know for certain that 15% will become 2.5 after roll out?Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
15% IOs are currently 2.5 PPM, and would be increased to 3.125 PPM with the proposed changes.
In Acid Mortar: 3.125 * 0.04825 = 0.1508, or about 15%, still. -
Quote:thx for that but what about 15% flat chance IOs what will they be converted toOriginally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
I'm actually pretty curious about this, so I'm going to run through the math here.
Acid Mortar (the power the pet launches):
Activation Time 0.0s (this is probably a bug, good thing we have The Powers Guy in here, huh?)
Recharge Time: 5.5s
Radius: 8
Area Factor: 2.2 (1 + 0.15*8)
Adjusted Area Factor: 1.9 (1 + (2.2-1)*0.75)
The Recharge can't be adjusted, because it's a pet power, so we shouldn't have to worry about variable recharge levels.
Proc Chance = PPM * (5.5 + 0.0)/(60 * 1.9)
Proc Chance = PPM * 5.5/114
Proc Chance = PPM * 0.04825
A 20% proc now will convert into a 3.75 PPM proc, and a 33% proc will convert into a 5.625 PPM proc under the proposed changes.
3.75 * 0.04825 = 0.1809
5.625 * 0.04825 = 0.2714
So, yes, Acid Mortar will see a slight reduction in proc rate, decreasing it's proc chances to ~18% with normal procs and ~27% with Ragnarok, but I'd hardly call it "ripped to shreds."
Note that ATO procs put into Acid Mortar will actually increase unilaterally in proc rate because the Recharge can't be reduced, but the PPM value of those procs will be increased by 25%.
Caltrops I'm afraid I can't help you with, as I don't feel like hunting down the pseudopet in City of Data to calculate it's Area Factor.
As a note regarding Traps, according to the Real Numbers info the powers Trip Mine and Time Bomb use to deal damage have 16 minute 40 second recharges, and Poison Trap's is 0.0 seconds, all which will break the PPM formula gloriously.thx for pointing that out againQuote:
Edit:
Once again, being attuned is irrelevant to procs. They work purely as a function of your combat level, the level of the enhancement is used for nothing but set bonus calculation. Disregarding the Flat%/PPM disparity and set bonus calculations, a minimum-level IO proc, a maximum-level IO proc, and an Attuned proc are functionally identical.
After IO procs are converted to PPM, minimum-level IO procs will be completely identical to Attuned procs. -
Quote:Only for IO procs, and only outside of 1. Quick charging powers that don't get to benefit much from slotting rechargeOriginally Posted by Vauluur
Well, I've seen it floating around for some time now that SBEs were never intended to work better than standard IOs. They just did work significantly better because of their better design. I wouldn't have (and didn't) buy any SBEs for the better procs. I bought the sets because:
a.) I have limited play time and they were a convenient way to get IOs without going through the hassle of crafting them
b.) They are attuned, making them highly desirable for those of us who primarily use an existing main to experience new content at all levels.
Frankly, being surprised that a change is coming down the pipeline that stops players from turning powers into something they aren't supposed to be is a little childish. Caltrops are not supposed to be a damage patch. They are supposed to be a crowd control tool. Brawl and Boxing are supposed to be low cost, low recharge, fast animating attacks that deal a small amount of damage. Not something you can load up with procs and expect to solidly deal substantial damage essentially for free.
You got your fun out of the exploit while it existed, but that's no excuse for pretending it isn't an exploit now that they want to fix it.
It's not really something to get upset about. In a very large percentage of cases this will increase proc rate.
and
2. Pseudo pets/Auras which were already nerfed in many ways including the 1 chance every 10 seconds rule for the sake of IO procswow you should apply to be a gm! staff says red is blue and you just nod your head don't youQuote:Only in edge cases where flat rate procs could be exploited will this be a nerf. And it's one that needs to happen and should have happened a long time ago. I paid good money for the performance i got and I didn't lord it over anyone, if you don't believe I deserve the performance I paid for that's one thing but if you think they deserve my money for the performance I paid for but dont have that's a whole nother subject. Feel free to roll your eyes, I am unmoved by trolls and sychophants and this shall be the last time I respond to you have a nice lifeQuote:The one legitimate argument against this amounts to "I paid money to be better than everyone else and now I don't get to be." Which I can't really take seriously because really? 
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Quote:Its not about opinions on what design intent is or was. I'm not interested in a debate on thatOriginally Posted by Arcanaville
If you actually read that thread, Arbiter Hawk was being asked how the PPM procs specifically worked at that time, he wasn't commenting on their design intent. In fact one poster explicitly asked him to state how they worked directly and not explain side issues beyond that.
In fact, Arbiter Hawk all but said he wasn't specifically involved in their design in the same thread, and thus his comments should only be taken to describe the procs, and not state their design intent:
He knew the basic idea, but not the precise details of the system or its design or implementation at the time he was speaking and admitted so. Under those circumstances, his opinion is no more relevant to the design intent of the procs than mine is.
When official policy includes consistently following a formula and the claiming an example of that formula being followed was actually unintended and a "bug"
It's about how it works, it's also about what "they"(staff) told us about how it works, it's also about how they advertise/promote how it works (see the hecatomb announcement thread listing its proc rate as 4.5 ppm)
It's about selling us on all three, selling to us with all three and then changing the item in the sale, the performance element of the sale but leaving the purchase part of the sale final. -
Quote:For my main my io proc slotting in caltrops and acid mortar is getting ripped to shreds my io proc slotting for brawl and boxing take a huge hit too but the hits don't stop there because I was dumb enough to buy SBE procs for their performance for all the characters I felt got good return on nvestment for them and they are all getting downgraded severelyOriginally Posted by Lucky666
I'm just curious why did all this start? I mean this new proc mechanic. Was there like a group complaining about how the old school procs worked before anyone even knew about ppm procs? Seems like a case of if it aint broke don't fix it. But you did fix it and now your gonna have teeth gnashing and angry customers was it worth it?
I'm glad this aint coming till i24 hopefully I'll be burnt out by then and this wont even be a blip on the radar.
its one of those things where there is give and take for IO procs but all who bought SBE procs for their performance got ripped off though that part is clear and its looking like there will be no recompense -
Quote:That proc works 2 ways when you summon the pet that you slot it into, there is a chance for the proc to benefit you for 5 secs, after that it can only benfit your pet every time it attacks.Originally Posted by Vauluur
What about procs slotted into pet summoning powers. For example, if I had a Soulbound Allegiance: Chance for Build Up slotted in Dark Extraction. Will that proc function based on the recharge of the Extracted Essence's attacks and thereby gain an increase in proc rate since they can't be slotted? Or will it function based on the recharge in summoning power?
so the pet proc chances should only be effected by the base recharge of the pet's powers -
Quote:Nope!Originally Posted by Synapse
There will be cases where your performance will decrease. That is by design. Speaking of which, it was never the DESIGNED intent to have SBEs consistently grant a superior benefit than their IO counterpart. However, there are instances where this has occurred. Again, my goal here is to create balance and address some issues with IO procs and Attuned procs.
Also, this PPM change will have no affect on Interface Incarnate powers.
SBEs were advertised for their benefits including the ability to proc 100% of the time even with high recharge
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...27#post4120527 -
Quote:Wrong, that was rebalancing a proc that followed a the same formula it's peers had around autos making the current iteration an abberationOriginally Posted by JayboH
That was a bug fix.
it's original ppm was not a bug
thus
the change was not a bug fix -
Quote:They laerned that those "without a horse in the race" will defend their decision making emboldening them to do the same at a much greater scaleOriginally Posted by Aura_Familia
I lol'd.
That alone says all that needs to be said about how badly this situation was handled.
Hopefully they learn from this experience when introducing new things on the market.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=288581
the bait and switch continues -
Quote:Try actually reading before you post 90% is the cap and its not even reachable with most IO builds since the power is now balanced on global rechargeOriginally Posted by Pinny
Oh noes! 90% instead of 100% That just means occasionally you won't be able to get two crits off before the fight starts. Boo hoo.
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Quote:Let's call it posterity I wouldn't want that info to "disappear"Originally Posted by UberGuy
Why? All it shows is that they changed their minds. We may not always enjoy it, but they're allowed to do that.
they also told me one thing to sell me on a system that no longer applies that makes it bait and switch -
Quote:Wrong on both counts!Originally Posted by Derangedpolygot
The RW cost gives you the Attuned quality; higher proc performance was not intended.
-There is no attunement quality to procs, none, zip, nadda the performance, and reliability is or WAS the only reason to buy them
-Can someone with strong search skills back up any and all cases where the staff informed us that 100% chance proccing was possible in the PPM system? -
New Information has come to light and it isn't good
Definitely Do NOT BUY the new sbe procs
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=288581 -
Quote:caltrops is a pseudo pet those and auras count as aoes with 10 sec rechargeOriginally Posted by Katie V
I'm worried that this change will be a major nerf to some popular slottings: Proctrops (Caltrops slotted with a large number of procs -- how is the PPM rate calculated for a long-duration damage patch?), Force Feedback +recharge in Footstomp or Energy Blast, the pet buildup proc in Assault Bot, and the Achilles' Heel proc in AoE defense debuffs.
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Quote:-I can live with all IOs being upgraded to PPM, that is no big deal imo as an early adopter I got the benefits soonerOriginally Posted by Synapse
Hi All,
I wanted to reach out to you all to let you know that we're aware of your concerns regarding procs per minute versus IO static proc chances. In some situations the procs per minutes on store bought enhancements (SBEs) are superior to those in IOs. I've read through your feedback and understand your concerns. We have a course of action we'd like to take for Issue 24. The changes we're going with are:
1) All IO procs will have their flat percentage chance to trigger updated to use Procs Per Minute.
2) Proc chance will cap at 90%. This means that there is always a small chance for the proc to not trigger even if slotted into a power that would previously guarantee a proc.
3) Procs Per Minute will use modified recharge instead of base recharge. The reason for this is that the whole idea of Procs Per Minute goes right out the window when we keep the base recharge even though that value can be dramatically altered.
4) To compensate for this, the Procs Per Minute on all enhancements will be increased.
The goals of this change would be to create a strong level of parity between IOs and Store Bought Enhancements (in fact they'll be identical proc wise) and reduce the impact that the initial implementation of the PPM mechanic had on gameplay. Your feedback is very important to us so I wanted to see how the community feels about these potential changes.
I think it's important to stress that the overall impact to gameplay this will have on existing PPM enhancements will be small. That said players will notice a small performance hit at very high levels of recharge. The balancing point for the increased procs per minute rates will be based upon a reasonable level of recharge. That amount will likely change through beta testing. You'll all have a chance to play test this on the beta servers in the not so distant future.
Best Regards,
Phil "Synapse" Zeleski
*What I don't like here (not that it will matter to anyone with any authority) is that the places where IO procs are stronger than SBEs (Like hecatomb in brawl, kinetic combat in kick or faster charging powers)get nerfed to SBE strength but worse than that since sbe strengths are getting nerfed too
-Basing PPM off modified recharged rather than base after we purchassed these procs is a real classy move. Many slotting decisions I made are no longer worthwhile and therefore neither are those purchases which were made after being researched and were made when I had faith in this dev team
The only upside here is that synapse at least had the decency to open up a red name thread to discuss the change, but since there will be no points return/credit on procs that will not work the way we purchased them for it only helps users avoid further disatisfaction.
Dollars to donuts this won't appear ingame in any official capacity or on the market -
Quote:and? I didn't buy a 1.5 ppm proc, not for my aoes, not for my autos. 25% better in autos is a joke considering costs and restrictionsOriginally Posted by Hopeling
Since the Performance Shifter proc ended up still better than the crafted version in Stamina and similar passives, which is where the vast majority of such procs are used,It's perfectly accurate it was set the same as its other 20% to 3ppm peers, that is the formula for all but one 2.5 ppm sbe it was drasticly stronger in 10sec sts than its io equivalent just like it's peers and was fairly underwelming in aoes just like its peers now it's only half as strong as it used to be where in situations it was strong and twice as aweful where it wasn't even remotely impressive worse they refuse refundsQuote:
and that instance specifically was a case of insufficient testing (it was on beta for less than a week, and nobody noticed the PPM until it had gone live), that's not quite an accurate way to describe the situation, Cheetatron.
to which I think they said they'd look into it and haven't commented furtherQuote:I mean, yes, the Hecatomb proc might get changed, and I'm being quite vocal about my dissatisfaction with the lack of communication on that issue. But the disparity was pointed out immediately on beta, and received multiple red-name comments, there is no possibility by now of Synapse saying "whoops, we didn't realize the proc chance this gives".
Not sure what that has to do with anything... if your suggesting I don't have to redeem any t9s, I know that, I don't have enough point last time i check to redeem any vip stuffQuote:Edit: Uh... you know you can skip right over the t9 repeatables and start the t9 VIP tier, right?
Quote:Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
Just curious, are you a VIP (subscriber to CoH)?
If so, you're still "supporting dishonorable business practices and those who practice them."I'm VIP until my game time cards run out, despite the temptation I haven't put a single real dollar into game since the last $100s worth of points which was before the bait and switchQuote:Originally Posted by Ironblade
I know, right?
Maybe it's okay to just support those despicable practices A LITTLE.
All you did was get rid of the context, goodjobQuote:Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
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