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If I came off like that AT ALL in any of my posts, apologies to anyone who got ticked off, but dude, I think I've tried to make it pretty clear I've got no problems with any of the other stuff. As far as that's concerned, I came into City of Heroes seeing it as an all-encompassing universe, and that was one of the biggest draws. I may be a big Marvel fan, but my favorite authors include Cory Doctorow, Kurt Vonnegut, Dan Simmons, Tolkien, I've read most of the Battlestar Galactica remake comics and X-Files comics, I've read almost every story on Orionsarm.com and written a few myself. If it's a massive universe inside of a consistent and self-contained continuum, my mind is open, and I say bring it. But there are a few things that the classic types could use, like seamed tights with patterns utilizing newer tech, masks that are real objects with full white eyes, and quivers. There are multiple threads with laundry lists.
If I wanted it solely my way, I'd actually be asking for contemporary super hero costume pieces inspired by modern-era comics and super hero movies, like seamed and ribbed non-spandex fabrics, masks with glowing colorable "whites," slim musculature-emulating armored suit pieces, and animated costume pieces like retractable body armor or hoods that can be pulled on. I think it would be a lonely fight for all of these things, so I've focused instead on something I can get behind that I like and that a significant number of others like too--the Silver Age (I'm not actually partial to the Golden Age, but like you say, variety is great). -
Felt grindy after the first press.
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I see what you did there.
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Again, I see a big fat straw man here. And yes, I'm using the term correctly. You people are misrepresenting my (and a few others) position, and then turning around and arguing against that misrepresentation rather than arguing against my position. Why? Who knows. But I would venture to guess it's because my position is not actually that arguable: which is that I love everything we have and that we're getting and that we're slated to get, but I'm disappointed that so much work went into something else that is not on the table and not on the schedule at all, meaning not in the pipeline and not being developed. They've got to work on something after everything else is said and done, right?
You keep telling me I'm comparing the value of these recent offerings, and I keep reminding you that I'm just as anxious for them and would have no interest in seeing the devs restructure their existing development schedule around a portion of the community's desire for classic super hero costume pieces. I keep reminding you people that lots of people spoke up for themselves in Savage's and Xanatos's threads, and you keep accusing me of speaking up for them, and I keep re-reminding you that no, they spoke for themselves.
Yes, the thousand suns line was cheesy, but it was off the cuff. All I meant was, the super hero comic book fans really want some more super hero comic book stuff. Not now. Not tomorrow. Day after tomorrow is fine. I don't hear too many people turning into the Hulk over this, but to hear it from you folks, you'd think we were. If you don't say what you want, you know what you might get? You might get something else.
All of the big disagreements I've ever had on these forums have revolved around accusations that I'm a blind fan boy. A few warts along the way have never soured me on the bigger picture--which is that City of Heroes is the best MMO and best "interactive comic book" ever made. If I'm entitled to anything, and I suspect I'm not, then I'm entitled to having one disagreement every couple of years or so without having it seemingly cancel out everything good I always have to say about the game. Is that too much to ask from you folks? Come on. Really? For folks who like to dress up in tights and do the right thing, you sure come off harsh. Villains get a pass, I guess. But the rest of you? I'm not that sensitive of a guy, but no one likes to be under the dog pile and threads like this make me wish I didn't post. It's just not right.
The thing that really frustrates me is that I know Zwillinger understood my message loud and clear, but I can't seem to get the message through to the rest of you folks that a strong desire to see our cooperative work lead to something substantial does not represent a contest between other themes in my mind, and never has. You keep bringing all of this other crap up that I absolutely love, and telling me that I'm angry that we're getting it. I keep saying "hey, apples," and keep hearing, "YOU can't oranges at US." Is that how it has to be around here? Black or white, right or wrong, apples or oranges? That's just not what the world looks like to me.
I would really like to have a normal conversation about a hot topic on these forums one day, without feeling like I am speaking through a babelfish on acid. I drop in to read the big threads even when I'm not posting, and I like a lot of you folks that are throwing rotten tomatoes at me today. -
Quote:Not my words, and more specifically, not the crux of the issues I raised. The community at large wants a lot of different things, so I think they're definitely playing the right game.
...This is pretty much why I don't post much. Less reading, less listening...
...You're not listening. I'm not concerned about who wins or what comes first. There is, however, a significant portion of the community who SPOKE FOR THEMSELVES in Noble Savages threads (and others--anyone remember Xanatos's mammoth thread and all the feedback players gave during the first several pages there?). Threads about themes that aren't on the schedule AT ALL after the cooperative work that was put into those ideas, and some of us want those things on the table somewhere, and on the schedule somewhere. I'm not saying RIGHT NOW. I don't hear anyone saying RIGHT NOW.
Listen.Quote:YOU do not speak for the entire community, no matter who you are or what you're fighting for.
Quote:I've had nothing but applause for what we have and what's in the pipeline, and there's never been a contest for me of value between these different costume themes. Anyone who thinks I don't support the devs (and a game I believe to be a masterpiece) just doesn't know what they're talking about. -
Yes. Sometimes. Not always though. Dug, this all comes down to immersion, stopping and smelling the roses, enjoying the journey, the wonder of unplanned adventures and random encounters, and a host of other pithy phrases that explain why some of us like to take the scenic route and not the short cut. Even though the phrases above don't describe your streamlined approach toward the (game) world, you need to be able to sympathize with the meaningfulness of these experiences for other people before you can understand the answers they're giving to your question. The problem you're running into is that this meaningfulness cannot be fully described within the context of game mechanics. For many people, their motivations for playing the game have little or absolutely nothing to do with efficiency or convenience; indeed, many people are here to enjoy time away from their daily rat race. But that's just one reason among billions of reasons people have imagined for themselves in playing City of Heroes over the years. The capacity to recognize and acknowledge that other people are very different from you and from each other is essential here.
Many an OP has simply asked the community, "How do you solo and why?" But the reason people are reacting negatively to your thread title is because it seems to suggest that we haven't already thought of your suggestion (and it's a very simple and obvious suggestion). That may not be what you intended, but it certainly doesn't help that you've earned yourself thin social capital from a weary audience. -
Quote:Not my words, and more specifically, not the crux of the issues I raised. The community at large wants a lot of different things, so I think they're definitely playing the right game.
TBH I haven't heard the community, at large, crying out for Golden/Silver Age costumes either.
Quote:To use a line like this, "prioritization of resources that is largely unresponsive to the community" just because you're not getting what you want RIGHT NOW is . . .Quote:I don't care how far out it is on the schedule. What disappoints me, given the name and scope of the game, is discovering today that it's not on the schedule at all.
I'm not the patron saint of communication either, but I'm not here to belittle any of you or any of the work that's currently in the pipeline, which is why I think Zwillinger deserves a medal for regarding my posts during our brief debate for the issues they REALLY raised, not combing through them for assailable sentences to pounce on just for the sake of the opportunity.
I've had nothing but applause for what we have and what's in the pipeline, and there's never been a contest for me of value between these different costume themes. Anyone who thinks I don't support the devs (and a game I believe to be a masterpiece) just doesn't know what they're talking about.
Sure, Ironblade, I can get over myself. I'm not exactly burning up over a video game. But the thing is, you don't even know what I'm disappointed about. You're not listening. I'm not concerned about who wins or what comes first. There is, however, a significant portion of the community who SPOKE FOR THEMSELVES in Noble Savages threads (and others--anyone remember Xanatos's mammoth thread and all the feedback players gave during the first several pages there?). Threads about themes that aren't on the schedule AT ALL after the cooperative work that was put into those ideas, and some of us want those things on the table somewhere, and on the schedule somewhere. I'm not saying RIGHT NOW. I don't hear anyone saying RIGHT NOW.
Listen. -
Quote:A lot of these people don't WANT to be on the forums, Rosa. Believe me, I've gotten some feedback regarding that. In a perfect world, what you're saying makes perfect sense. But in actuality, this will just continue to be a source of feedback that is missing from data collection and analysis.Sure, they can just whip up some code on that.
Better yet, tell your friends that if they want to be heard, they should give feedback on the forums.
And, Rosa, I don't, and never would suspect the team could just whip up code on that. It would be a lot of work to get their hands on a lot of data. This is the kind of reply that makes me just turn off the forums. I'm in the position of either ignoring you, or arguing with you over semantics and split hairs. I'm the kind of person who genuinely enjoys listening to people and considering what they have to say--so I hate having to choose between options like that. -
Quote:Feelin' a lot of respect for you after reading your response, and I owe you a lot more credit than I've given you here, Zwillinger.I get it. I understand that you're passionate about it. The arguments I, and the rest of the OCR team, makes advocating your causes to the development and business team are just a passionate. Just remember that our current development schedule is in no way a reflection that we don't appreciate your enthusiastic requests and that in all likelihood, we agree with it.
I'd be lying if I said this erased all disappointment over learning that more (and long-requested) super hero parts aren't on the schedule at all. I am disappointed over this news because my personality and characteristics are exactly what City of Heroes marketing tugged on to get me into this game. I'm a super hero comic book fan. I want more of THAT. NONE OF THAT is currently on your schedule. There is only ONE WAY to erase your community's disappointment over this.
I know you're busy and I'll stop posting after this, but there is something that concerns me about your data collection. When I think about my City of Heroes friends who never even come to the forums (almost all of them), friends who spend money on the game and have preferences and opinions that are never heard and collected and analyzed, it bothers me knowing that you don't have access to any of that data. And that's your true-blue fan base, Zwillinger, that's where they're at. Playing the game.
So here's a suggestion: an opt-in program allowing its participants to fill out occasional polls from within the game itself, using the same pop-ups ya'll use to give us news about current issues. Give players the ability to opt in at its launch or any time in the future through their Options menu. If you framed it in the right way, I'm sure many of the players would really love to participate and proof of their wishes would be in the pudding with all the charts and graphs you'd get out of it. -
I just want to add to what I said above and assure you that this isn't me stamping my foot. This isn't some unrealistic demand for the schedule to be realigned after the fact. What this is, I believe, is a collective trumpet call. I don't care how far out it is on the schedule. What disappoints me, given the name and scope of the game, is discovering today that it's not on the schedule at all.
I am surprised, and confused, and disappointed. I'm not exaggerating. I'm not typing out bait, I'm not part of the forum's peanut throwing gallery. I'm really one of your biggest fans. -
Quote:But ya'll ARE losing sight of the bigger picture. I'm not. I've got nothing but good things to say about what ya'll have produced over the last year, and what you're producing now. Boy, if you only knew. I really do sell your hard work to my friends and super group mates. In my corner of Virtue, I'm often where people learn about new and upcoming features. I'm your website to many people. I have to tell people that I'm not a dev.I'm not exactly sure where you get that we're not being responsive to Community sentiment. Just because we aren't working on one specific costume set we're not being responsive? Are we discounting all of the other changes and additions, not just costume specific, that we're working on and have accomplished in the last year+?
In the end, we're going to make some costumes that are fan favorites and we're going to make some that inspired us, either from fan inspiration or personal. There's no specific cadence we're stuck with as it's all released as development and marketing schedules allow.
You have a development team that is extremely responsive and balances player sentiment fairly well with development and business requirements. Losing sight of the bigger picture through hyperbole does a disservice to not only them, but all that the game has accomplished.
Take some time out of your ordinary day for just a moment, and think about what the "bigger picture" means to a super hero comic book reader who plays your game. Then ask yourself if it's truly enough that this portion of your fan base's concerns are being heard but not prioritized in a significant way, beyond honorable mentions within product management meetings. I don't want to argue with you over small points, Zwillinger. I'm not going to quibble with you over the meaning of hyperbole. You know what I'm getting at. It's a big point. It's significant and it means something to me, and I don't believe I'm alone, and I'm being real and honest with you about it. -
Quote:And I'm sure this admission will put a big smile on the competition's faces, Zwillinger. And I type this without even a hint of snark. That's not my M.O. Read it for what it is: certainty.I didn't expand upon the comment in that thread because the thread was about the Post Apoc armor, not new variants of Tights and Golden/Silver Age costume parts.
We most certainly did get a lot out of exploring what could result from a Golden/Silver Age themed Costume Bundle. I think we grokked the idea that what was expressed had more to do with materials used and textures and how the costume bits laid on the characters body. I want to be explicitly clear when I tell you that we don't think it's a bad idea, in fact we definitely think it has some merit. It's just not something that's in our immediate line up.
And no, I can't tell you when/if we're working on anything like that.
Right now, we've got a line up of Costume Bundles coming down the pipe. Some we've announced (Post Apoc, New Tights, Cybertech) and some are still in the works. I do know that many players here on the forums are very enthusiastic about the possibility of Golden/Silver Age costume parts and these requests are expressed in our regular product management meetings.
My M.O. 99 percent of the time is to support the dev team. And I absolutely support the designs they're coming out with currently. Nevertheless, I am disappointed by what can be genuinely labeled as a prioritization of resources that is largely unresponsive to the community. The community won't shut up about this, Zwillinger. Don't be CCP. I know your job is to toe the line, but it's also to communicate our desires to the team, and our desire is pretty much burning like a thousand suns. This is not new news. Please consider this during your next dev meeting. Put this in your notes somewhere. -
One of my biggest wishful thoughts about the comic book world is that I wish Batman was a Marvel character. I wish DC would just lose their marbles momentarily and sell Batman to Marvel. So that I could have all of my favorite comic book heroes in one place, which includes dozens of Marvel characters, and one DC character. Batman.
He's actually met Spidey a couple of times, you know. Spidey really liked Batman. I don't think it was completely mutual, but that's what made it funny to read. -
Stop bringing up reasonable counter-points that threaten to shatter my fragile interpretation of game mechanics as a framework inside the fourth wall. *Shakes fist.*
Now I'm going to have to re-think my previous statements and hold a press conference in the morning. -
That is not at ALL what Tormentoso is suggesting and I wouldn't put my approval on that idea in a million years. The comic book nerd in me would basically implode, and it wouldn't be good for the business side of things, either.
Tormentoso's idea is limited in scope and fair in compromises, which is why I like it.
Edit: Although on a re-read, even Tormentoso seems to be into the idea of an unlimited number of characters attached to the same name. So nevermind. Two characters per name, maximum, I suggest. -
Quote:Much, much MUUUUCH simpler to implement than my suggestion I bet, and more versatile in terms of choices, options, possibilites, concepts. Good idea Tormentoso. *Signed!*I would love this IF AND ONLY IF the other build had its own leveling xp system. So they would for all intents and purposes be different characters entirely attached to the same name.
So no matter how high the self-PL-ing Brute is, the controller who is uber at 50 but sucks till then is still level 1.
The RP potentials would be delicious. Same character with multiple kinds of battle armor: melee and range. A dual pistol who alternates between devices or traps depending on the need, etc. -
Quote:Pfft.Define "much of an issue." Getting a character to 50 is still a big deal to me, because it doesn't happen all that often and is the sign that I must really really like that character to play it all the way to 50. It still takes me months to get from Level 1 to 50. Probably 5 or more, on average.
It takes a year or two on average for me, and I play a lot. But I also lock XP a lot because I play for storylines, not to outlevel them, and to play them in a way that makes sense in time and space (not to have to go back and do them some day via Ouro). But it's not because leveling is hard. When I'm ready to gain a level (or a few), even if I don't take a booster I get my levels in no time--and I never farm.
I love this game, so that's not a complaint, but sometimes I do scratch my head over it. I feel like I earn my way through a lot of rewards in this game, but XP isn't one of them. When I turn XP on, it's like turning on a faucet. XP stopped being a "reward" in my mind about a year into the game, when I realized it was actually detrimental to the experience I'm after. I turn it on only when I'm ready to advance deeper into a storyline chain.
I'm basically that guy who the writers have a job in order to keep satisfied. I actually read those walls of text. If you were wondering. Yes. I exist. I'm out there somewhere in ur levelz. -
Quote:I know it's a little late but welcome to City of Heroes! Honestly, being late to the game myself, I can tell you that we are really the lucky ones. If you really embrace the whole game and don't just rush for the end game, you'll never run out of stuff to do. After all the updates, there are too many things to list in one post. I'm over two years in and I'm still a newbie in many ways. The old hands around here, they were introduced to a completely different game, and it doesn't hold a candle to the entrance we had.Define 'new' from where I sit, and many many others there are quite a few 'new' things out this week. Bat Aura. never seen that. Alpha and omega costume.. only available to those that have good vs evil edition or bought them on the market piece by piece.
I feel you may see my point by now? Just because something is not new to you does not mean it is not new to others -
Quote:Hey! I hadn't even thought of that, but with power proliferation coming along nicely...Now if the option was that you could change AT but one of the powersets must match a powerset on the original character than I could make it work (Traps/Beam as the primary character, Beam/Dev and Bots/Traps as the alternate builds).
So yeah in that case I'd do it in a heartbeat even if I had to individually level the characters to 50 and do their Incarnate content separately.
Good idea.
Aggelakis, your feedback is a little "shoot 'em down, got nothing to add," but maybe that's just how you communicate--in which case, no hard feelings and it's genuinely appreciated (I mean that). Like I said though, the greatest benefit of my idea might only be conceptual. But conceptual benefits are not useless and unpopular to the rest of us. Look at the game you're playing and the entire costume editor and how much development cost has been sunk into it. There's a lot of reasons why people play this game, and probably over half of them are conceptual. -
This is slightly unrelated, but it's a cool tidbit. It's also not a knock on the SSAs. Me and my super friends loved SSA1, we loved 2.1 and we're all looking forward to the next. Personally, I think a dev would love to read what I'm about to say.
For the first time ever, I realized a couple of weeks ago, I feel more honest-to-goodness anticipation for a bit of player-made content, a trilogy of story arcs that one of my favorite Mission Architect authors has in their pipeline. From what I hear, it's finished and in testing. I'm not going to tell you what it is because that's beside the point. But I'm looking forward to it--even more than I am to SSA 2.2.
And I think that is a fracking amazing thing to realize. Not simply because of what it says to me about player-made content in this specific instance, but because of what it says about us, the players, and what it hints at for the future. I know it's not often fair to compare things like this, but it happened naturally in the back of my mind. Speaking only for myself, the fact that I even made the comparison represents a milestone for Mission Architect and player made content. -
PEOPLE! I HAVE A REQUEST!
Got your attention? Okay I know not everyone has time to read everything in a thread. But can ya'll please click back to page one and read my very short suggestion, and give me your feedback? It's one of the first posts.
Don't just tell me if you like it or hate it; tell me if you could tweak it just a bit to make it work for you, how would you do that?
Go read the details, but keep in mind the point is to give a player character more choices without giving them any significant advantage. -
Quote:That made me laugh out loud, Arcanaville.This statement is only true for a subset of the forum community. Removing the word "only" makes it true for the rest of the forum community.
I just added your name to my browser's spellchecker in case I'm ever ******* crazy enough to get into a protracted argument with you.
Oh goodness. Fine. Batdoodoo crazy enough.
Quote:At best, you get into a long conversation about just how much you agree with each other, which can be cathartic, but it can also lead to the deceptively dangerous commiseration spiral. -
I agree that it would be a case of the devs cutting their own throats, but I'm all for a less-treacherous suggestion, such as allowing a character to pick a different secondary power set on a secondary build, IF AND ONLY IF that power set had to be leveled up independently--i.e. you would have to earn XP toward its progression while it was active. And you couldn't pick it until at least level 30, and you would have to go on a story arc to unlock your new alternate secondary, and you would be stuck with your choice forever after making it. Consequently, it would be at a lower level than your character's combat or security levels (i.e. it would have its own 1-50 level scale independent of your primary/original secondary scale), because in fairness, your character is learning to use that power set now. Along with the current 30-minute cool-down on switching builds, I see this as a fair thing.
In short, my suggestion makes a character earn an alternative secondary power set, along with a few compromises that balance it fairly (i.e. a zero sum gain) against the cost in time of starting a brand new character.
In fact, the biggest gain might simply be conceptual (imagine a power armor character who has a Mk. II suit with different secondary abilities), but isn't that what half the game is about?
Of course, I doubt that any of that is possible inside the game engine. -
Quote:The five stages of forum grief. Perfectly normal and natural, Phoenix.This topic has taken me from semi-knee jerk annoyed, to defensive, to exasperated, to "meh, whatever", to amused that it still is going on.
More seriously though, you can only restate your position so many times in so many different ways. I often worry that the conversational structure of a forum thread is more detrimental to productive discussion than beneficial, because there's no way to tell for sure whether people are listening to you unless they provide feedback. And studies have proven that people are a lot more likely to provide feedback in online discussions when their feedback is negative. Which means you have no quantitative sense of all the readers who feel positively about your thoughts--despite the fact that web traffic stats prove that most visitors to Internet forums are overwhelmingly readers, not posters. Add this to the fact that the average poster in the midst of a conversation (that includes you, Phoenix) will often become doubly focused on feedback that disagrees with their posts, at the expense of ignoring much of the positive feedback.
I once spent three months on a rather extreme experiment on this forum, where I willed myself to do the complete opposite; only interacting with people who replied positively to my thoughts, and completely dismissing posts that were argumentative, even politely argumentative (because we all know where that leads). As expected, it didn't always lead to very productive conversations either, because A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET just don't know how else to interact ("Oh, so we agree on that. That's...well that's...nice. KTHXBYE"). Still, it was the most peaceful three months of interaction I ever had on these forums. And when I'm at my best, I use what I learned from that experiment to encourage a sense of balance in my conversations. Now, if only I could always be at my best.