Caemgen

All the ologies sort of blend together for me... *shrug*


I really don't wear skirts... Really!
(don't have the legs to pull it off...).

But seriously, this question of helping and support is one that's on my mind... Is that my goal? My job? Should it be? Or I'm I just an enjoyer of arts and happy with that? *I guess am I a patron of the arts or just a purchaser... *And what goes with each...

Why is that crummy? *Isn't it a buyers job to get the most for their money? Is it crummier than buying bulk?

Assuming equal quality (big assumption but for sake of argument...) isn't it a bit foolish not to seek the best deal? Should one feel the need to purchase individual pieces and pay more just to make sure no feelings are hurt? *And should one feel the need to purchase local arts rather than get a cheaper price from someone overseas?

How much altruism should be imbued into the collecting of arts and where should it be directed?


Well that is all walks of life, really...

Well I'm not going to kid myself... A contest run by me wouldn't offer all that much exposure. Certainly not the kind that is worth much at all... I have never bothered to count watchers or anything but I think any artist would get better exposure printing their art off and pasting it to a lamppost...



I just barely touched on this a bit but yeah... I think, for working/professional artists trying to make a living, or even just occasional spare cash, there are bigger problems than contests... Contests they can choose to enter or not but they are forced to compete with people from other countries... Many of which can and do work for far cheaper...

I've not worried too much about prices in my little collecting career. I think there was maybe one person I didn't commission because I thought their price too much. I've turned away from far more artists for reasons like not even ballparking prices beforehand, for having blatently political stuff in their gallery that offended me, for having payment methods which were too annoying or for just seeming like a jerk...

But I can't help but believe that there are those who are commissioning based on price and frankly there's a lot of south American and Asian artists who are working very very cheap.*


*
Sorry, I thought the title made that clear. I made this thread in order to have a discussion about art contests...

Well, um, then thanks for pointing out the obvious??

Really, if I was dead set on running a contest I would have run the contest, not tried to start a discussion where people could have some back and forth on the pros and cons of such..,

If I was really dead set on running a contest I would have brushed off the voices counseling me to rethink the plan rather than listened to what they had to say and then looked for more viewpoints.

But wow, I just never realized I was all about squeezing as much art of people as cheaply as possibly. That certainly explains how ruthlessy I try to negotiate artists down from their stated prices, why I've regularly looked for ways to give art to others and why I've got one artist who doesn't even tell me how much I owe til after they've done the work. You're right, I'm altogether a right cheap *******!


Generally I find the most interesting, informative and influential discussion involve the point counter-point method. A discussion where one side just listens is usually a lecture. When both sides agree on everything then there really isn't much to discuss anyway.*

I've always believed that with an open mind that point counter-point discussions (or debates) were much more informative and influential than one sided lectures or reading material... I believe this method forces both sides to think not only about what the other side is saying but also about their own points and beliefs. *

But you are right: They aren't stopping me.*

But they may he convincing me... I was all set to hold a contest before this thread but I am now leaning more towards not doing so... *

Errr, yeah. *I think the "TA got awesome response because he's TA" ground has pretty much been accepted as a given at this point. *

Yeah, to me this is a definite point that must be adhered to. This wouldn't be a little "get a free artz" amongst the little friendly community of this board but an actual contest with actual prizes... (Well, hopefully the winners of my little commission contests thought their prizes actual... But like I was thinking more moola significant...)


Well I think a brand new collector would run into trust issues. Heck, I may run into trust issues if I do a contest. I'm not nearly the mainstay TA has been so some may worry if they will ever actually see the prize money if they do win. And while I think it may be a concern for some with me, I think it would be a much larger concern for many more if the person running the contest had no gallery, and thus no track record of paying, to back them up...

I definitely think a flood of contests is a concern anywhere. Even radio stations don't do them 24/7 So I had already planned on waiting a month at least for TA's to simmer down...

And while DA may be huge, I think quite a lot of those on there we're likely to reach and have a chance to het interested overlap... I'd personally look for ways to reach non-comic book type artists as I LOVE seeing my chars in other styles but I also think they'd be harder to get to enter. *shruG*

I do think it's sometimes easier for new artists to get their feet wet this way sometimes... Maybe figuring if they suck they'll get lost in the crowd, or some the opposite and using the bar set by those established to try to push themselves to that level and see where they are. But different things motivate different people so it is hard to say for sure...

lol, like I said, this is a feeling out process for me so even ambivalance can be useful if it provides differnt avenues of thought Thanks.


But must everything be beneficial? Isn't there a time and place to just kick back and relax and partake of something just for fun once in a while? I can see where it could be detrimental but I think if it was kept as an occasional thing it's harm could be at least minimized...

I don't think anyone is saying it IS a learning experience... but that it could be. I think setting your goals high and competing with others to achieve them definitely can be a learning experience... If the person is open to the learning experience. Some will be. Others won't be.

And yeah, I wouldn't be giving back detailed analysis of each work but I'm hardly the one anyone would want a detailed analysis from. I know what I like and little else.

As for people jumping the figurative gun and trying to open for commissions before they're really at that level? Sorry, but I'm not taking on the role of big brother here. I certainly cannot be the one to tell people when they shouldn't be trying that or not.

I've actually found money to be a great motivator in life. I think it's reasonable to argue that it shouldn't be or that there are much better motivators, or even that it creates the wrong kind of motivation... But money is probably about the biggest motivator the planet knows.

I really hope this doesn't come off condescending or anything... But your story is really quite touching. The fact is that most people would use such a problem as an excuse, not a motivator... The fact you went the other route is really quite heroic.

At the same time though, aren't there different paths for different people? Personally I find having something to compete against brings out the most talent in me, the most drive. I'm generally lazy. LAZY. If there were a lazy Olympics I wouldn't medal - I'd be too lazy to enter. However, the few times I really felt the motivation to achieve... To push myself... Was when I was competing.

In high school I did some pretty amazing arts.. But only when trying to best someone else in my class or the one time the project was for a city wide competition. Sad truth is that I let one lousy teacher and the fact the two other art students I found as worthy adversaries ended up in different art classes one year (and thus had different projects, we weren't competing) turn me off of drawing... Teachers were never able to motivate me, only what I felt was worthy competition.

Anyway... So I must argue that different paths work for different folks... (What you talkin' 'bout, Willis???) However, I do think there is a very real argument to be made about whether cash is the best reward/prize... But I honestly cannot think of a better one I would have available to offer.

But see... I see the cash as the lure only. I think the artist have to feel the challenge themselves or not.


Agreed and I am sure I have said pretty much the same thing before... And oh yeah, that's how you spell Schwann's name!!

To be a hundred percent honest, I think any contest of this sort hopes to be dazzled by the quantity end quality. Nobody is holding a contest and hoping only 3 entries come in... And those from epileptic sea urchins. So yeah... art maximization is at least a goal of any of these contests, even if not a primary one.

Still, the prize didn't dilute... First second and third prizes stayed the same. Cash to entries ratio changed but that happened once the second entry came in. (I suppose it could be argued that the chance to win change... but to a certain extent that assumes the arts to be equal in quality, doesn't it?)

Yeah, I definitely don't have TA's contacts (though I'd beg him to advertise for me!) but I was planning on upping the prize bar... And I don't know if I have a cool theme but if I do ever run this monstrosity I have in my head then there would at least be variety for the artists to choose from


But... but... The universe revolves around me!!! And I wasn't aware I had a name or reputation to capitalize on... Just thought I had some capital to blow.

But I must wonder just how much support artists would feel by being told they could draw my character. First off, I couldn't really stop them... Secondly, there are much more interesting and well known characters out there.

As for evaluating possible commissions... Looking at galleries is of course the best route for that. Though I would hope that if I did run a contest I would find ways to reach people I had never stumbled across before and thus be exposed to artists I might not otherwise have found...

While I don't think I would do the Pot Luck, the idea of finding a different sort of contest is definitely something I am considering. As I think I've exhibited to anyone paying attention, I sometimes have a hard time choosing so I do tend to like letting randomness decide... While a straight up random picking of the winners probably wouldn't go over well perhaps I could think of some interesting compromise.... Hmmmmmm.


Bah, I've already addressed this elsewhere... Bring on something new! (Just kidding!! Really!! But I think it's an agreed point that TA got so much because he's TA and all that entails.)

Bah, I was actually thinking more Halloween/Christmas time! I figured the extra time from now that is would allow me to make the "yule log" even bigger...

Yeah, my first plan had money set aside specifically as consolation/honorable mention type prizes. I don't think asking how much the art is worth is the best tactic (my stick figure doodle is worth 1 million dollars! Just ask my mom!) but I do like the idea of having a way or two to "spread the wealth."


EDIT 'CAUSE DRAGGYNN SNUCK IN WHILE I WAS POSTING!


Ok, I skipped over most of your post since I do think they have been touched on before... But the one part I forgot to quote I wanted to mention was the Professional Artists may feel insulted thing - I'm not sure how others run but if I was to do this I wouldn't personally invite anyone. I'm just not that outgoing. I'd look to use boards and forum announcements and that sort of thing... But I find those requesting artists to join their contests a bit pushy and I wouldn't do that.

Anyway, on to anthropological... For a proper comparison, wouldn't you need to mimic everything but TA's stature as much as possible? I think different prizes, different characters and different guidelines would make the comparison too anecdotal to be of real scientific value

Well the vision is that it would mainly be on DA (but of course open to everyone) so not everyone would be a player of the game...

But as far as how good anyone's art is... Some of my personal favorite pieces are from artists who probably would not fall in many (if any) "elite" lists... Technical skill is important, but so is vision, idea, concept etc...



I do agree that contests are a good way for artists to try to stretch themselves out of what they may consider their "league"... If the artist view it that way. I think it's a great way to look at it but everyone has their own perspective.



Well it's a contest... Just like a lottery or raffle or auction. Obviously there will be winners and losers. And yeah, losing sucks but you never get to be a winner if you don't risk losing, right?

As for someone who would refuse to do a commission for someone just because they lost in their contest... Doesn't really sound like someone I would want to work with anyway. Sure, there is generally some who feel their work was best and they got cheated but I think most know a contest is a gamble and unless the winners are obviously subpar, the decisions were made on differnt criteria than announced, or there is obvious collusion then I think most are good sports....[/QUOTE]

Well it would be disingenuous to say that it wasn't part of the reason for a contest... But it was a much larger part before I started buying commissions. Now it's more about the fun, the interest, the curiosity to see how it'd go, how far it might reach... etc etc etc. I also figured it would be a good way to get some other people's some arts

I'm curios as to just how many people would be that put off by losing though... I think the first big contest I ever took note of was that Shwann guys from DA and he's done at least one more since then and still seems to get plenty of entrants and new commissions... Hmmmmmm.

Have you tried going to his DA page to view it there? Here's a direct link to that... It's definitely worth checking out. Would have made my top 5 no problem at all if it had just been a tad more recognizable as TA.

I'm jealous, enamored and thinking about following suit! I still don't get what the disapproval is all about but *shurg*

But yeah, it's easier to really dig in and comment on a couple of pieces rather than a whole collection at once.

Well we do seem to have more active collectors than when I first got here... Initially it was just kind of Feral Cat who was active and TA being pretty quiet on the new arts front... Now we have them, me, Attache, Airhead, etc etc etc. Are we drowning out the artists?? I sure hope not!

But... It seems to me the artists are a little less active in the producing department. And when they do produce and post it I think there are some who are reluctant to post these days because of the fear of saying the wrong thing and starting drama.


Ah well, if nothing else at least the costume redesign thread usually has new posts to scan when I'm bored.

Ahhh, so it's not just me who has thought this place has been getting quieter and quieter lately???

I'll look over all your entries soon and give my thoughts on the top 5 just so long as you don't let them influence your judging too much! You know your characters better than anyone else so you should be the one to really choose which best represents them.

It does sound like a good idea....