BurningChick
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Posts
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Quote:Hi Synapse,Originally Posted by Synapse
That would definitely be helpful. CoH has changed hands a lot over the years and design philosophies change as designers change. A lot of the design decisions were made by those long before my time and quite possibly even before Castle's time as well. So, we have to dig through ancient dusty documents and when none are to be found we are left to make educated guesses.
Thanks for your responses!
I'm curious about this post -- some of my first posts on the forum were about why I wasn't excited about my bubbler's T9 (and 7 ... and 8 ... and Detention Field, for that matter), while everyone else around me was gushing about Nukes! Fulcrum Shift! Unstoppable! Even AB (when it stunned the caster). And I had ... Force Bubble.
I always figured that FF was stuck with some lemons because FF's bible entry read something like, "Keep 'em safe. Buffs. Distance. [Detention Field was a late addition.]" Does this mean that you'd consider changing some of the game's underused powers that previous devs considered off limits due to thematic or canonical reasons? -
Quote:Ahhh, I think I misunderstood the part where AS out of hid is /not/ interruptible.Originally Posted by Synapse
Stalkers with defensive builds are more likely to be able to use an Assassin Strike from hide. That is no different than it is on live currently. The intent now is to allow everyone to use Assassin Strike regardless if they're in hide or not. The out of hide Assassin Strike should benefit all secondary sets relatively equally as it isn't interruptible.
Synapse
But ... I still don't think I'm a stalker person. The AT seems to have been designed around the idea that the game has a single target, tactical component that never caught on with the players.
See also: recent epic threads about KB. -
No points for 5 weeks over here, but it looks like I did get my latest transfer token. Weird thing, that.
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Hi Synapse,
I'm not really a stalker kinda' person ...
But wouldn't the proposed AS change work out better for stalkers with lots of +def than those with different forms of mitigation? -
Repulsion Bomb does scale 1 damage (i.e., the same as Neutron Bomb from Rad Blast) with a minor chance to disorient minions. It's one of the best direct damage damage AoEs available to defenders, even when you factor in its 30 second recharge. You should slot it up for damage, not disorient. I'd scavenge slots from Force Bolt.
And, come to think of it, Ball Lightning could do with some damage also.
You'll probably get more mileage out of Assault than Tactics for soloing (most IOed builds have significant +accuracy bonuses making it tough to miss anything a solo bubbler would be going after).
I'm not quite getting the build. You have your AoEs slotted for utility, not damage (taking on entire spawns with ST defender blasts can be slow). You have a ST attack with only the base enhancement. Dispersion Bubble, one of the game's best buffs, is underslotted for +def while Tough and Weave are heavily slotted.
Here's a thread with a different take on FF / elec (note: I don't like Force Bubble and Repulsion Field), but to each his own.
Edit: I should include the link: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=276489 -
Quote:A long time ago, I said that Force Bubble would only become popular if it were better than all the powers it fugged up -- and, for any number of reasons, that can't happen.Originally Posted by Madadh
Sure would be nice if KBing into walls of off ledges generated impact damage, or falling damage as a bonus. KB would probably be a bit more popular then.
Might also help KBs popularity if AoE effects like damage patches and debuffs had a lingering effect on enemies after they left it, and thus if KB didn't immediately save them from whatever effect.
Just a couple of thoughts.
We once had Statesman strongly imply that Force Bubble should be an always on power (justifying its formerly insane end cost) because it allowed squishies to leverage the generally reduced damage of ranged attacks. He had nothing to say when we pointed out that the 20ish% damage debuff paled in comparison to Darkest Night's debuffs.
For Statesman, Force Bubble wasn't just about increasing performance as much as it was about toggling on the game's biggest and, possibly, most impressive AoE and getting a damage debuff as a side bonus.
In some, weird way Statesman was right. It is insanely cool to see mobs flying, or to see a bubbler with a "don'tcomenearme" zone. But "insanely cool" doesn't get xp or lewt. And sometimes one person's "insanely cool" moment busts up someone else's (OMG! Did you see what RoF did to that spawn!).
What kills me is that the devs seem to have always known that KB is a double-edged sword while telling us that with no ambiguity that distance = mitigation. Why else would we, the players, have more powers that grant KB protection to mobs ... than players? -
Quote:*looks up* interact with us on the forum? Not everyone wants to watch Z sing show tunes. And not everyone can log into the stream while it's live. It's also easier to sift through posts in the dev digest than it is to sit through the inanities of the stream.Originally Posted by Rubberlad
Honey, they're making guest appearances on U-stream every week. What more can they do?
The nice thing about the forum is that it's not live -- you can reply minutes, even hours, after the OP ... and carry on a conversation.
You see ... the devs have, at their disposal, several tools for communicating with us. And some work better than others for different types of people. And, well, they haven't been active outside of the beta forums for ages. All I'm sayin' is that I miss it. No reason to get, ahem, up in my grills. -
I think the devs are waiting for the Summit for Big Announcements, which leaves not much for a producer's letter beyond, "Still working on Alpha trials. Introducing some themed, seasonal trials. Ginormous weapon set coming up. Etc. etc."
Anyway, more disappointing to me is that the devs have been awfully quiet over the last year -- they rarely show up to interact with the plebes on the regular forum. -
Healthy kids.
Craft beer.
A new way to kill time on Dec. 20. -
Quote:I've seen it in-game -- to the point where some folks wouldn't invite people who list "storm" or "NRG" in their search comments.Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
Only here on the forums have I ever even seen KB hate.
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Quote:Howdy,Originally Posted by Kyriani
Take a look at it... you'll see that ONE set bonus buffs the duration of every control type in the game (confusion, sleep, immob, etc) if they can do that for controllers then they sure as hell can do something similar for defenders (ONE set bonus that gives +heal, to hit buffs/debuffs, defense buffs/debuffs, resistance buffs)
The difference here is that controllers all have 3 or 4+ aspects that benefit from the shotgun approach to control bonuses.
Defenders have 0 (de)buffs in common. And 1 set has precisely 1 enhanceable (de)buff, while others would have most of them. -
Hey, Z,
There's a reason the devs stopped pushing updates late in the week.
Gah.
What on Earth made you guys push a patch WITH KNOWN ISSUES right before a weekend?
You know what's funny? The game's best stretch of updates was I8-I12 ... when CoH was being developed on shoestring budget. The updates were focused, timely, and seem to have gone through QA. -
Oathbound,
You're mixing things up -- you're holding up the controller set bonuses as an example of doing it right, but they apply only to /control/ aspects, not generic boosts, like +ToHit, that would exclusively apply to an Empath's secondary.
Unfortunately, there isn't a single (de)buff that's common to (de)buff sets. Not one. Healing is as universal as it gets. Further, there is, as far as I know, no set bonus that would buff FF's ability to buff defense.
Your example of the controller set merely demonstrates what the devs were trying to do with the healing bonus. And I'm simply pointing out that healing is as close to universal as it gets with defenders.
You're tilting at windmills. -
Quote:Meh.Originally Posted by Oathbound
The point people are trying to make is that if it's going to be a bonus on an Archetype specific set, it should actually WORK for ALL possible combinations of that archetype.
It doesn't matter if most Defenders have a heal. It only matters that not all of them do.
Someone at CoH HQ apparently wanted to add a bonus that would buff a buff, you know, play up the defender-y aspect of the set.
A +def bonus wouldn't do that (it'd simply give some def to the defender); neither would +resistance (see above). And, if you want to get /really/ nitpicky: kins don't need +recovery; empaths don't need +ToHit / accuracy; not all sets have mezzes; TA has no buffs; +regen is only interesting if your toon already has a lot; FF doesn't have -ToHit; FF doesn't have -def. And on. And on.
If the devs added in a multi-aspect bonus (something that'd give a bonus to every possible (de)buff), people would b**** that Rad and Dark made off better than X ... 'cause those sets are naturally more versatile.
I mean, this is all just a tempest in a teapot.
Maybe I've just had a bad day with my kids, but all I can hear is, "But it's not FAIR!"
Well ... not everything in an MMO, as in life, has to be mathematically fair. Sometimes, things can't be fair. Sometimes ... accommodations must be made for concept. -
Quote:Here's the funny thing.Originally Posted by Madadh
Since no defenders have broad mez protection prior to lvl 50 and Clarion, and most don't have any at all (only Acrobatics and the minor hold being available across the board) maybe the heal should be replaced with a Lvl 2 (or lvl 3, I'm not sure where the sweet spot would be) Protection vs Fear, Sleep, Stun or vs Fear, Hold, and Sleep.
The reason not to include both Hold and Stun is to protect the unique level of protection FF, Sonic, and Traps enjoy, while still having value to all defenders.
And of course, FF, Sonic, and Traps would still benefit from the slightly enhanced Protection values.
I've put FAR more time on my Dark / Dark defender than on my FF / rad ... and my FF / rad has been mezzed for MORE [edit: not LESS] time. FF's supposed advantage of having mag-based status protection is more than made up for by my 3D's ability to make life miserable for mobs.
Folks? I know many of us object to the defender = healer position of much of the playerbase ... but, at the end of the day, most defender sets DO have a heal. Most defenders will derive some benefit from it. Arguably, the VAST majority of defenders will see some benefit from the set since, well ... there just aren't all that many heal-less defenders in-game. -
Get off my lawn, whippersnappers!
I believe that part of the point Gray is trying to convey is that major patches, hardware updates and so forth delivered late in the week have a long history of biting MMOs in the buttocks -- because the folks who can fix bugs are often at home on weekends.
Issue 2 is the reason why major updates in CoH are almost always on Tuesdays. -
Quote:Dark Miasma would benefit from all the bonuses (edit: brain seizure -- pet gaze never did have -def implemented in it, despite help saying it did); FF and sonic from 1.Originally Posted by Kyriani
Example: the set bonus could buff all of the following much like the one controller set bonus buffs all types of controls but instead buffs: to hit buffs, to hit debuffs, defense buffs, defense debuffs, healing, resistance buffs. Then every defender primary could benefit from this bonus. Some would benefit more than others but no set would be left with a set bonus that affects none of their powers.
Still not good. -
Quote:A minor nitpick -- repel is its own effect, even if, IIRC, only three powers in the game have repel (Force Bubble, TK, and Hurricane). I think you meant toggled KB powers like Repulsion Field, Repel (horrible, horrible name) and Sonic Repulsion.Originally Posted by Dispari
Now there are a couple powers where it might matter. Repel powers and maybe Bonfire.
And ... well ...
Before people get too wrapped in KB powers with high damage and KB powers with low damage, it's best to remember that the game has many effects that, in some cases are tied to damage and in other cases, not. -Resistance immediately comes to mind, as do holds in a defender primary compared to holds in a controller primary.
Anyway, Dispari, there are places in the game where you simply can't line up a convenient corner to KB mobs into, or you have no height for hovering over mobs. I do believe that, in some cases, the devs view KB as such a powerful control / damage mitigator as a secondary effect that they're OK with there being a wee bit of balance by annoyance.
FWIW, I think the devs could add proc that gives a chance to grant KB resistance to mobs to an AoE set to help contain KB ... but I don't think that letting squids ROFLstomp mobs in safety with Solar Flare will do anything except give us another farming implement. -
Maybe I'm missing something ...
But couldn't the devs buff some powers to grants mobs kb resistance? Mobs that heavily resist KB tend to fall down when they get hit with kb.
Likely powers, IME, would include Tar Patch, OSA, etc.. -
So, to sum up ...
We've had Geko express surprise that tankers didn't appreciate KBing their mobs outside of melee range (distance as damage mitigation, doncha' know). I'd pull up a link, but most of Geko's posts have been incinerated.
Statesman going on'n'on about distance as damage mitigation, specifically for squishies, in the forums and PMs. His post detailing the benefits FF brings to a team amounted to a sales pitch of FF's non-buffs -- Repulsion Bomb was a "hidden gem" (note: it was changed shortly after his post); Force Bubble allowed ranged toons to leverage distance for the ghetto damage debuff; etc..
In Castle's drumroll please thread we have, referencing Dispersion Bubble, "The built in Status Protection is invaluable, especially with Scrapper and Tankers Status Protections reduced." Only ... DB has an AoE of 18', Force Bubble 50'. Either the squishies don't get the game's ultimate distance as damage mitigation tool, or scrappers can't scrap without Dispersion Bubble's darn near necessary mez protection.
Board lore has it that PB KB is a balancing factor.
Some immobs confer KB protection to mobs.
What it all boils down is that ... the devs have had seriously conflicting opinions about KB (and its sister effect, repel) since, more or less, release. On one hand, "OMG mitigation!" on the other, "But, yeah, we'll let you team up with controllers who can keep a spawn together 'cause KB isn't THAT good."
And the players reflect these opinions (and a few more).
The thing is ... everyone's kinda' right. KB IS damned annoying if you're playing an AoE-centric melee toon and moderately annoying even if you're focusing on ST attacks. KB can be a great tool for mitigation (Force Bubble? OK, it's not KB, but it costs virtually no endurance, has no AoE cap, and reliably reduces incoming damage by 20%). And KB can cause some ginormous flustercucks when, for instance, a mob with an anchored debuff goes flying into a second spawn.
I dunno. I think my opinions mirror those of the devs.
I love Force Bolt, but hated the old high mag KB versions of Repulsion Bomb with a white hot passion.
I love seeing (Energy) Torrent used to KB mobs into a dropped patch, but I sometimes feel the urge to /kick numnutzen who KB mobs OUT of a patch.
I've seen -KB fug up slippery patches, but I've also seen -KB make squids squee.
I have a feeling that the devs have never quite got a handle on KB should and shouldn't be. What would I like? I'd like the devs to implement the Null the Gull idea for some powers, those where the KB is supposed to be a beneficial secondary effect (I'm looking at you Electron Haze) that frequently makes the power less than desirable. -
Quote:Uhhhh ...Originally Posted by EvilGeko
On the ITF, in the final mission, many of the spawns are on bridges or otherwise not near corners. Where is the tank supposed to move them.
Stacked Bonfires are really, really entertaining on the final AV. You blow the incoming spawns away and also have a chance to knock down whatshisface. Since Romans are, by and large, melee toons, their need to rush up and punch you in the face makes them easy fodder for, say, RoF (its AoE more or less covers the max distance they get KBed) launched by my fire dom.
Ditto for the towers on the STF.
I'm no great fan of KB, but there are places where it's really quite impressive. -
Quote:A point to consider ...Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Another example of an effect that can have a downside is AoE Immobs... they can prevent enemies from moving where they need to when used poorly, and many contain a -KB component which renders powers like [Ice Patch]'s KD useless.
Other examples would be Intangibility powers and Cage powers. Both can be used to good effect... but they can also be used exceedingly poorly. Same goes for KB.
KB is often a secondary effect tied to other, generally useful, effects (like, say, damage). Cages are, in all cases, primary effects -- i.e., you only fire them when you want to cage something.
FWIW, one of my least favourite powers in the game is Electron Haze. In general, I like cones (no, seriously, I do), but the chance for knockback cheeses me off. You can take a nice, tight clump of mobs, hit them with Neutron Bomb, line up EH, charge into melee ... and then miss a quarter of the spawn with Irradiate because EH only KBed some of the spawn.
I would love the ability to reduce a power's KB magnitude with an IO, but, apparently, this can't be done due to engine limitations. Or simply have some form of power customization that allows you to dial back secondary effects. -
Quote:Years ago, I ran some tests on my FF / rad defender.Originally Posted by EvilRyu
I have always hated when they said distance or range was defense. Its not it never has been and in fact it can get you killed faster than melee in some cases. The problem is every freaking mob can just about outrange our characters. This is the only mmo I have played where its like this where kiting is virtually useless against mobs with range because they can just sit there and pick you off.
Force Bubble would reduce incoming DPS by about 20% if left on all the time.
Repulsion Field would reduce incoming DPS by about 30% if left on all the time (and with the available endurance).
KB and its cousin, repel, absolutely, no ambiguity, reduce incoming DPS.
Whether or not the ghetto damage debuff is worthwhile (leaving aside the value of KB and repel as positioning tools) comes down to how much damage mitigation a team needs versus the generally lowered ability to leverage AoEs ... including Gauntlet and actual damage debuffs like Darkest Night (-37.5%).
My rough tests showed that the incoming DPS was more than offset out a reduction in outgoing DPS so that my bubbler took more damage over the course of a mission with Force Bubble always on. The corollary, of course, is that my XP / minute dropped with Force Bubble on.
However, from a non-power gaming standpoint, Force Bubble is hella cool. And KB is both fun AND comic book-y. But ... they're just not always useful. -
Here's what I don't get ...
We used to get devs telling us that distance is damage mitigation ...
We had strong hints from Statesman and Geko that distance by any means was unreservedly good ...
But some controller AoE immobs grant mobs KB protection -- in one case, even when the set has an AoE KB power (fire).
It's also odd that players can grant mobs AoE KB protection while, pre-Clarion, they couldn't grant AoE KB protection to other players.
The only thing I can wrap my head around is that they devs were making a distinction that they didn't bother to communicate to players: KB is always good if you're talking about mitigation; KB is (possibly) bad if you're already able to keep mobs at range AND layer on further debuffs and controls. -
Inherent Health?